Talk:Scottish Rite

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Mistake in Degree structure

The table for the Degree structure lists KCCH as a subset of the 33rd Degree. This is incorrect; KCCH is an elevation within the 32nd Degree.link to Supreme Council, Southern Jurisdiction The table should be modified to reflect this. Bricology (talk) 20:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done? -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 11:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done Fiddlersmouth (talk) 12:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In reviewing this page on 11/12/16 the Honorary of KCCH in the Southern Jurisdiction is not listed under the 32°. In that block in the table, 32 should be the top line and KCCH the second line to show it's position in the rank structure. At one time KCCH was in the 33° block above 33, but it more rightly should be in the 32° block. 24.166.38.132 (talk) 04:38, 13 November 2016 (UTC) John S. Ranck, 32°KCCH, KCT, KYGCH.[reply]

Degree and Rank

The degree of Master Mason is canonically the highest degree to which a mason can attain. The highest rank is clearly that of Grand Master. Here we can only talk authoritatively about Anglo-American lodges that don't have a separate degree of "Installed Master", which in any case is a degree in all but name in all lodges with an inner working, and clearly higher that a Master Mason. In the UGLE, MMs are quietly told that Royal Arch membership is almost essential if they wish to take an active role in the organisation above lodge level, so even the "no degree higher" bit is mere words, with a purely symbolic meaning that only makes sense to masons in the right jurisdictions. The first paragraph in Degree Structure has to go. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 00:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

UGLE has never quite figured out where the Royal Arch belongs. It's Constitutions state that Masonry "consists of three degrees and no more, viz. those of the Entered Apprentice, the Fellow Craft, and the Master Mason including the Supreme Order of the Holy Royal Arch." One interpretation of that provision is that UGLE does not consider the Royal Arch to be "higher" than Master Mason... UGLE considers the HRA to be part of the Master Mason degree (albeit a part that is conferred by a separate body). Hence the feeling that one should take the Royal Arch if one wishes to be considered for more Provincial or National GL offices... by taking it you are "completing" your third degree.

None of which has any baring on the Scottish Rite degrees. These are considered "extra" and are in no way "higher". Blueboar (talk) 19:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're missing the point. Rank and degree are NOT the same - the highest rank is NOT master mason, even in blue lodge, where the humble MM is outranked by any installed/past master. The highest degree is said to be MM, BUT masons sticking at MM are not going to be considered for major roles within their Grand lodge, so it's a meaningless truism only understood by masons. Further, jurisdictions such as the Droit Humain hang their whole organisational structure on the Scottish Rite hierarchy, making the MM assertion doubly meaningless.

The article clearly states that MM is the highest Rank within masonry. That is not true at any level. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 23:10, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is concerning Scottish Rite Freemasonry and therefore should speak only towards the Scottish Rite position on the matter. Blueboar is right. Jersey John (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also, despite the name, the A&ASR is comparatively rarely practised in Scotland. Blue Lodge (which includes the Mark) is the setting for the Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft and Master Mason degrees. Royal Arch (which also includes the Mark, rather confusingly) is administered entirely separately. Participation in "The 18th" is by invitation only.

Nuttyskin (talk) 03:04, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Names of the degrees in the Northern Jurisdiction

The names of some of the degrees in the Northern Jurisdiction do not match the actual names in the Northern Jurisdiction Scottish Rite Passport. How were the names of the degrees obtained? I mean, I literally have the passport right next to me and am a Mason so...yeah they don't match.

According to the citation, the list we use was taken from Freemasons for Dummies by Christopher Hodapp (ISBN 0-7645-9796-5, Hungry Minds Inc, U.S., 2005. pp. 226-227). Hodapp is usually very reliable, so I tend to trust what he says. However, I do know that the Northern Jurisdiction restructured (and re-named) their degrees at some point relatively recently... and I suspect that this may be the reason for the difference between the list on your passport and what Hodapp says. The question is whether your passport has the up-to-date names, or whether Hodapp has them. When was your passport issued? Blueboar (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... I checked out the list of degrees at the website of a Valley in Pennsylvania (which is under Northern Jurisdiction)... and yeah... something is off... the list of degrees in the Lodge of Perfection does not quite match what we have ... so I now suspect that Hodapp is out of date, and that we need to correct our information. Just to double check... Does your passport match the degrees listed on the website? Blueboar (talk) 16:29, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The NMJ changes degrees periodically, so I'm sure Hodapp's 2005 book is out of date. The only issue is that Wikipedia has a rule against original research. We can't just open our passports and fix the chart, it needs to come from an external source. Cosmic Sans (talk) 17:56, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we can not cite a passport... We can use (and cite) website of the Valley in Lancaster Pennsylvania. I only asked about the passport to double check that the Valley's website is accurate. Blueboar (talk) 12:05, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have my passport with me right now, but I can tell you right now that this website is out of date. For example, the 19th degree is now "Brothers of the Trail" instead of "Grand Pontiff." This was a fairly recent change... I saw the new degree this year and I think it was the first time it was put on in my state. Everything else looks "more or less" right although I think there's something to be changed in the Consistory degrees. Cosmic Sans (talk) 15:04, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the double post, but this one looks right to me: http://www.scottishriteboston.org/en/page.php?id=12 thoughts? Cosmic Sans (talk) 15:06, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and updated the NMJ degrees in accordance with the Scottish Rite of Boston website Cosmic Sans (talk) 15:37, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Citation Error

The citation [55] for the following statement doesn't make sense: "In England and Wales, whose Supreme Council was warranted by that of the Northern Jurisdiction of the USA (in 1845),[55] ..." Here's what the citation reads: " "Property Market in the South East - Bedsfordshire Property Times". www.beds-freemasonry.org.uk. Archived from the original on 22 August 2017. Retrieved 28 April 2018." That link is now dead, but the main url seems to be some real-estate website not affiliated with Masonry. Mpaniello (talk) 15:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NY Scottish Rite Craft Lodge

New York City's 10th Masonic District is composed of 16 lodges, all of which practice the SR versions of the Craft rituals. I've attended one of them, La Fraternidad #387, in October of 2019. However, I can't find any online citation which states this explicitly, though I know this to be true and anybody from that district or familiar with it would attest to it. The 10th-District site is: https://district-26-ny.ourlodgepage.com/ Mpaniello (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think some needs to write an article on the SR Craft lodges of New York (and New Orleans I hear.) Jjazz76 (talk) 17:07, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in one of the New Orleans SR lodges, Cervantes No. 5, and I think that would be a great idea. However, I'm not the one to write it. There's a guy in my lodge who's a real Masonic historian, especially when it comes to SR Craft lodges, who'd be the natural choice. I'll ask him, see what he says. Mpaniello (talk) 17:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Haha - No for sure. I get it. So many interesting topics out there to write about and not enough time to write about them all!

Maybe something I will work on when I have the free time. Jjazz76 (talk) 19:34, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, If there are no sources, we can’t include it in Wikipedia. Consider writing something for the “Empire State Mason”, or the “American Lodge of Research” instead (and then we might be able to use those publications as a source). Blueboar (talk) 17:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I mean a sourced article, sorry for not making that clearer. He's already written a good bit on the subject at a scholarly level, just not for general publication (though iirc he has written for a Masonic publication or two). His work however cites publicly available sources. There's also another local SR historian, Michael Poll, who's written quite a few books and articles on the subject and has lectured pretty extensively around the country and maybe even a couple spots overseas. He has a publishing company called Cornerstone Publishers with lots of literature on the subject if you're interested. Mpaniello (talk) 17:38, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just looking back at this. Yes - Michael Poll does some great work with Masonic Publishing. Who is the other "he" that you reference here who has " already written a good bit on the subject at a scholarly level, just not for general publication." Jjazz76 (talk) 04:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Editing Wikipedia does help in finding places that Masonic articles need to be written, that is for sure. Jjazz76 (talk) 19:35, 19 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

US Not the Sole Exception

This statement isn't correct:

"It is the most practiced Rite in the world thus most Master Masons are made thought the Scottish Rite system with the exception of the United States of America where most Lodges do not work the first three degrees in the Scottish Rite but rather join after the attainment of the third degree in their own systems."

The US is not the sole exception, pretty much the entire English-speaking world is the exception. Most US lodges use the so-call York Rite versions of the Craft rituals, which are based on and most resemble English rituals (ie Preston-Webb). Scotland and Ireland have their own constitutions, but they don't practice the SR Craft degrees, neither do Canada, Australia, or New Zealand (though there is one SR Craft lodge in Australia from what I've read). I'm mentioning it instead of making a simple substitution of terms because I think the paragraph might need to be more thoroughly rewritten. Mpaniello (talk) 00:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]