Talk:Science and invention in Birmingham/Archive 1

Nick Boulevard comment

Andy, I know there is something going on=e ahuoi333338h ssb inside your m7829000000ah nn\\\\\nn][wq, but unless you explain here then all we (me personally) see is unexplained vandalism, I might actually agree with your edits if you would only open up and. Nick Boulevard 00:51, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to mention that the meaning of life is contained in the passage above. Nick Boulevard 00:53, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Uranium glass

In 1850 the first commercial use of Uranium in glass was developed by Lloyd & Summerfield of Birmingham.

Nope: other Birmingham glassworks were doing it even earlier, though not necessarily as *the* earliest. See the existing uranium glass page and here.

Fort Dunlop

Rephrased: a) see Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms on phrases like "the first and greatest"; b) the first Dunlop factory was in Ireland; c) Dunlop himself was sidelined early on as a minor shareholder in the company. See [1], [2], [3] RayGirvan 17:11, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

18th century

This needs a critical look. It implies a Birmingham focus for the activities of all these figures. The Lunar Society chronology shows where they were at various times. Roebuck, for instance, did his sulphuric acid work in Birmingham, but filed the malleable iron patent later when working at his Scottish factory. RayGirvan 11:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unverified text

Saved pending verification. I can't find independent sources for Darby, Griffiths or the Mills wiper patent. It looks specific enough to have come from *somewhere*, but until then...

deleted - text reinstated now we have reference

Ray, "Mr professional journalist" :) they are all sourced from the following:

Edwardian Inventions by Rodney Dale & Joan Gray. Star Books ISBN 0352 30345 X and their sources are all provided within the book but please do no make me write themall out :( just go buy it :) please restore these facts now thankyou Nick Boulevard 11:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference! That's all it takes. RayGirvan 12:35, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

West Midlands inventors

People from the West Midlands are the most successful innovators in Britain.

Statistics published by the UK’s patent office confirm that in 2002 more than a quarter (28.7 per cent) of all applications filed with the Patent Office by West Midlands residents were granted, well above the national average of 16.4 per cent.

As has been said in previous discussions, Birmingham is only part of the West Midlands. For all we know, though it's unlikely, this data could result from all the patents being filed by one Edison-like genius in Dudley. Even if we accept the generalisation, it could reflect other things such as the density of corporate organisations (who file most patents). It doesn't support any conclusion about "people" in general. RayGirvan 18:19, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Read it again, West Midlands residents not corporate businesses, not one bloke from Dudley and another from Walsall and considering the page in which this claim is located i.e. the many inventions etc relating to Birmingham and considering that the West Mids is made up of about 2.6 million people Birmingham makes up well over one third of that entire population, as taken from Wikipedia:

The city is at the centre of a large metropolitan area which is officially defined as the West Midlands Metropolitan county which has a population of nearly 2.6 million. Brum is about one million residents many of whom count towards the claim that you keep deleting. 195.92.67.66 17:58, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Read it again. Better still, go to source. A search finds that the initial and sole source for those specific numerical claims is this University of Wolverhampton press release. The raw data comes from the Patent Office document Facts and Figures 2002-2003. Chapter 1, Table 1: "Patent applications filed and granted by region 2002" confirms those figures, but also show that they are classified entirely by location (postcode, actually) of applicant. The 28.7% describes all patent applications from the West Midlands, whether corporate or backroom inventors. As has been said, there's insufficient information to make any conclusion about the patent patterns of "Birmingham people". RayGirvan 19:17, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But what I wrote/am saying is simply this,

1. "People in the West Midlands are the most successful inventors in the UK" ~ fact.

2. "Birmingham is by far the largest city in the west midlands and makes up roughly one third the areas population" ~ fact

3. "The city has a proud science and invention heritage." ~ the article that I have compliled tells us this in part.

It beggars belief that you do not agree that this is relevant to an article about invention in Birmingham, West Midlands. Nick Boulevard 17:58, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am going to restore this sentence, it remained on the Birmingham page for some time untill Andy Mabbett edited it out of existance. What harm does it do? it is all fact and we are not saying anything other than Birmingham makes up roughly one third of a region which is by far the most successful area in the UK for inovation, if it can't go here then where does it go? Nick Boulevard 11:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Looking at the Patent Office document, the "West Midlands" in this context doesn't mean the former county, it means the region, which has a population of over five million. So the statistic definitely doesn't belong here, but possibly in an article about the West Midlands region. As previously explained, this statistic says nothing about Birmingham in particular - for example, the University of Warwick is also in the West Midlands region, and has a very good reputation for industrial innovation. Also, patents granted do not equate to success - plenty of patents are granted for things which turn out not to be commercially viable or otherwise useful. This is the sort of flim-flam statistic which is often found in press releases. I'd give it slightly more credibility if the University of Newcastle was claiming the West Midlands was a hotbed of inventiveness, but not much more credibility. --Brumburger 19:14, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have restored the West Mids inventors sentence as trivia at the bottom of the page, this has been removed by a user that has previously edited the page, no prizes for guessing who LOL. I will continue the discussion here, I vote to keep this as trivia:

:::1. "People in the West Midlands are the most successful inventors in the UK" ~ fact.

2. "Birmingham is by far the largest city in the west midlands and makes up roughly one third the areas population" ~ fact

3. "The city has a proud science and invention heritage." ~ the article that I have compliled tells us this in part.

This sentence is relevant to the article, it is fact taken from the patents office, the west mids region is most successful for patents in 2002, Brum is one third of that region, unless someone can show me facts that Warrwick Uni or wherever makes up more of a percentage of those successful patents than Brum then this should stay, it coul be added to a Warwickshire science and inventions article if it existed only.. it doesn't! Nick Boulevard 23:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

And once again we have "unless people can prove me wrong, I am going to claim my speculation is the truth". Read my paragraph directly above - Birmingham does not constitute a third of the WM area being considered here, and even if it did, a number averaged across a region tells us nothing about particular areas of that region. --Brumburger 12:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Brumburger, the fact is added as trivia at the bottom of the article, the facts are clear, no speculation, please stop deleting this. Birmingham is the largest city in a region that is the most successful for patents proven by the report from the patents office, not only is Birmingham the largest city it roughly makes up one third of that regions population, see West Midlands region. If we cannot add this to Birmingham then where can we add it, it is a fact to be proud of for all the inhabitants of the West Midlands. Nick Boulevard 17:59, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Wilkins

See the biography at the Nobel site: [4]. He wasn't "educated" at the University of Birmingham. His physics degree was from St. John's College, Cambridge, and his research work at Birmingham - PhD and later - had absolutely no relation to DNA. However, King Edward's School is a genuine Birmingham connection. RayGirvan 13:59, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was through my research into science in Birmingham that I stumbled across Wilkins whom I knew little about prior to my addition of him to this article, thanks for the link, it is great to see the article expanded a little further. Nick Boulevard 20:14, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ray, Digitalis deserves a mention I believe. Nick Boulevard 23:36, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cotton Industry

Sources:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TEXpaul.htm

http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/chrono1.html

http://www.smr.herefordshire.gov.uk/agriculture%20_industry/mills_leominster.htm

Nick Boulevard 12:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Tenses

This article mixes tenses ("Paul and Wyatt open a mill"; "A factory is opened"; "William Withering published"). Andy Mabbett 12:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that, could you help? I often mix tenses, it derives from a friend's comment that sticks in my mind about how many people do not use the correct tenses in conversation today and now I used to confuse myself. Nick Boulevard 13:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Which should it be then? "opens" or "opened"? Nick Boulevard 00:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Hirudin

1884: Berry Haycraft discovers hirudin; the anticoagulant created by the leech salivary gland, Haycraft and E. W. Wace Carlier later pioneered treatment on the coagulation of blood.

Moved here pending fact-checking. See Talk:Hirudin. Tearlach 09:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Unreliable source

I suggest that anything that comes from here be fact-checked. It appears to be a tertiary source, and a number of details are garbled. For instance:

world's first antibiotic M&B (sulphapydrine) for the treatment of lobar pneumonia

There is no such thing as "M&B (sulphapydrine)". This refers to sulfapyridine aka sulphapyridine aka "M and B 693". Tearlach 22:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Platelets

According to this article, Richard Hill Norris identified the function of platelets in the 1870s. There is no reliable source save one online article. In contrast, Brewer confidently traces this back to Bizzozero (1882). See Talk:Platelet. I have emailed Prof Brewer re. the significance of Prof Norris in this area. JFW | T@lk 22:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes: multiple good sources say Bizzozero. As to save one online article - i.e. this article again, which despite its good credentials gets some things plain wrong, like the sulphapydrine (sic), and categorically opts for Birmingham for some discoveries where sources are in reality divided. I find it a bit of a strange coincidence that other sources say Richard Hill Norris invented the Dry Collodion Plate process. Has someone got plates and platelets confused somewhere along the line? Tearlach 23:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for double checking these two points Tearlach/Jfdwolf, I assumed the source to be correct as it is the official Uni site, I would urge you to get to the bottom of this so that the points in question can either be included/modified or removed. Nick Boulevard 17:27, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

John Hopkinson

http://www.nndb.com/people/290/000102981/ http://www-g.eng.cam.ac.uk/125/1875-1900/hopkinson_john.html http://www.todayinsci.com/8/8_27.htm

Pickard Engine

1779: Matthew Wasbrough designs and builds the Pickard Engine (first crank engine) for James Pickard of Snow Hill, this is defined as 'the first atmospheric engine in the world to directly achieve rotary motion by the use of a crank and flywheel.'

please see here: http://www.btinternet.com/~historical.engines/pickard.htm

Compound Lever System

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?txtkeys1=Working+models

http://www.averyweigh-tronix.com/main.aspx?p=1.1.3.4

Messrs. Chance Brothers and Company

Messrs. Chance Brothers and Company always associated themselves strongly with Birmingham as in it was used in their advertisements and title constantly: "Chance Brothers and Co. Limited Birmingham" or "Chance Brothers and Co. Limited Smethwick near Birmingham": [5]

Smethwick lies between Birmingham and West Bromwich.

[6]

"The land formed part of Blakeley Hall Farm and the area of 10 acres extended from Spon Lane to Oldbury bounded by the canal on one side and the Birmingham Road turnpike on the other."

"Chance's Black Country and Birmingham workers found themselves in far flung destinations, such as Sierra Leone, Australia and China. The lenses were unpacked carefully, reconstructed on site and then underwent rigorous testing."

"Lucas erected a second glass house and in 1828, a third was added to meet the demand of the export trade. In the early 1830s during a depression in the glass trade, Lucas faced financial difficulties. These were surmounted by the aid of his brother William. William along with his younger brother George had a successful iron merchants business operating from premises in Great Charles Street, Birmingham. They traded almost exclusively with America and William found the capital to guarantee the survival of the firm and became a full partner of the company."

[7]

I did actually research this article before I decided to add it to the Birmingham page Andy. Nick Boulevard 16:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Chance Brothers works were of course in Smethwick. However there is a question of 'what is Birmingham?' and 'what is the Black Country?'. The present extent of Birmingham results from it absorbing adjacent villages in the late 19th and the 20th century. We are dealing here with a considerably earlier period. Smethwick was part of the parish of Harborne. It is a quirk of history that Harborne became part of Birmingham and Smethwick did not. If I wanted to, I could easily delete Boulton & Watt from the list, because the Soho Works were then in the Staffordshire parish of Handsworth, not the Warwickshire parish of Birmingham, but that would be ridiculous. One definition of the Black Country is the area where coal was worked before deep mining began. That extended into West Bromwich, but not into Smethwick or Handsworth, both of which could thus be hisotrically categorised as rural villages between the Black Country and Birmingham. This is an interesting article, and should not be spoilt by semantic arguments over what was (or was not) in Birmingham. Birmingham had a significant sphere of influence beyond its boundaries. Attempts to define the boundaries of this article should thus not be too tightly drawn. Peterkingiron 13:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

OK I have added Chances again on the suggestion of blurring the boundaries slightly. Nick Boulevard 12:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok Andy has removed the Chances section of the article again as he says there is no concensus on this issue, can we do this so that he is happy and the article can progress. Thanks all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nick Boulevard (talk • contribs) 17:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Title and Scope

Perhaps not - but then the article should be renamed. Andy Mabbett 14:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Andy/Peter, IMO you both have valid points, while I think it is important to give reference to a certain few companies like Chances due to their location on the periphery of Birmingham (and many workers/investment actually being from Birmingham) the title of the article could be misleading as like Andy says, Chances were specifically located in Smethwick not Birmingham HOWEVER they did have close ties with Birmingham.

I have thought for some time that the word 'invention' should be replaced by 'innovation', what about changing the name of this article to 'Science and Innovation associated with Birmingham' this way we could maybe include Chances and any other companies provided the ties with Birmingham were very strong, as in work force, born there, invented there etc etc. Thank you Nick Boulevard 13:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking of something more like "Science and [whatever] in Birmingham and the Black Country". Andy Mabbett 09:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Andy, thanks for the reply, that sounds interesting, the two areas do have close ties, I seem to remember something about inventions relating to locks that took place in Oldbury which could come under this title as well?

How would you suggest the introduction should start?

"Birmingham is the second-largest city in the United Kingdom, the towns of the Black Country are located near by and many of the boundaries are difficult to distinguish. Birmingham and the Black Country are two of the country's principal industrial centres and have a history of industrial and scientific innovation." Nick Boulevard 11:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What about Wolverhampton? It's a moot point as to whether or not it is counted within the Black Country, hence it should perhaps be included explicitly if within the focus of the article. Matthew 13:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"Birmingham is the second-largest city in the United Kingdom, Wolverhampton, West Bromwich, Walsall and the towns of the Black Country are located near by and many of the boundaries are difficult to distinguish. Birmingham and the Black Country are two of the country's principal industrial centres and have a history of industrial and scientific innovation." Nick Boulevard 16:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Does the 'second-largest city in the United Kingdom' need to be kept, at least in the introduction? I think it makes the introduction clunky and would perhaps be better mentioned later in the article. How about 'The cities of Birmingham and Wolverhampton and the towns of the Black Country together form one of United Kingdom's principal industrial centres. This area has been significant in this respect since the Industrial Revolution, and has a fitting history of industrial and scientific innovation.' Matthew 16:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

So are we suggesting the title 'Science and Innovation in Birmingham & The Black Country' then I think Mathew's wording works well as an introduction, and maybe? mention Birmingham as the second largest city in UK, could mention the Lunar Society in the introduction as well, included people from all over the country.

I think if we did this it would be worth including a picture of Boulton and Watt (I can take this and host it if someone would be kind enough to include it in the article?), I think the tenses need to be sorted as Andy suggested a while back, I started to do this. Also it may be important to give specific places in each entry so as not to create too much confusion, I sometimes add a specific area but not always. Nick Boulevard 19:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

That could be missing out Wolves again. To include Wolverhampton unambiguously either gives us a long title or puts us into the territory of something like Science and Innovation in the West Midlands. However, this gives us some 'hard' boundaries and could also include Coventry. It would probably be useful to have some kind of fuzziness at the borders, and I would presume that Coventry is intended to be outside the scope of this article. Matthew 22:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I always assumed that Wolverhampton was part of the Black Country, well it was when I lived there lol, if we used the West Midlands in the title it would be difficult to distinguish certain hard boundaries as you say and Coventry would certainly need to be included, maybe this isn't a bad thing, not sure??? Birmingham is the largest city in the region by a very long way and as far as I am aware it is by far the most significant contributor in the region to patents, medical science etc, the idea to not include Birmingham in the title may not be the best way to go, can you come up with any significant inventions and patents in Wolverhampton over West Bromwich, Smethwick or Walsall? that would be interesting, in all honesty I think the article works well as it is and this has only come about really due to the inclusion of Chances, but as already stated, this could still be included if the title were changed to "Science and Innovation associated with Birmingham", we could then have another article.. "Science and Innovation associated with Wolverhampton or Black Country". Nick Boulevard 23:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Are there any significant downsides to Science and innovation associated with Birmingham? This would seem to give the degree of fuzziness required. If only this conurbation were known as Greater Dudley (or equivalent, if we must ;-)) then things would be easier for us! Matthew 00:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

haha, Greater Dudleyshire incorporating Birmingham, Wolverhampton, West Bromwich and er.. Upper Gornal. I think Dudley gave Birmingham some stick many many years ago, they have a castle for gods sake, that's a bit of an unfair advantage.

I have always wondered actually, old names for Birmingham included Bromichem or alike, now would West Bromwich have been originally known as 'West Bromichem' or 'West of Bromichem' two different things completely, if it were the former then why isn't West Bromwich actually part of Birmingham? sorry to digress, anyway, Science and innovation associated with Birmingham looks and sounds much more appropriate for the article, if this was Manchester we would probably be listing every thing in the North West bar Liverpool but still under the tag of Manchester LOL. Nick Boulevard 10:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok so is this agreed then, how do we go about changing the name or is it simply a case of starting the new article with info from this one, then putting a direct from this page straight to the new one? thanks. Nick Boulevard 13:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I would oppose a change of name, as this will casue the article to lose its focus. As I said in an earlier comment there were clear green fields between Birmingham and the Black Country in 1850, and in a sense there still are - a strip from the Sandwell valley to Barr Beacon and beyond. West Bromwich is in contrast with Castle Bromwich, not Birmingham. There is no reason why we should not have 'Science and innovation in the Black Country'. I would oppose the use of 'West Midlands' in the name, as this is ambiguous, referring either to the county or the region. My preference is to keep the name, but the temptation to define Birmingham too closely should be resisted. If we can build up a similar time-line on the Black Country, it might well be useful, but this will require research to an extent that I do not have time to do. The Birmingham article is likely ultimately to be derived from Prosser's book, but there is no equivalent for the Black Country. If we had such an article, I would suggest Industry and science if the Black Country. Peterkingiron 22:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well that's thrown a spanner in the works Peter but fair point.

I started this article some time ago and I think it fair to say I researched extensively over a period of time nearly all of the additions here and also stumbled across many that were already wiki articles, obviously I am useless as copy editing so people such as Andy and others have helped to keep the article heading in one direction which has been easy to add to (being a time line).

We originally came up with the title name because, quite simply, it made sense. I recently took out a few books from Brum library one being 'science and invention in Birmingham', I found it interesting that the book (written so long ago) had chosen exactly the same title, it is a brilliant read and many of the patents listed had already been researched here although it did enlighten me to several new ones, it would be nice to give prosser a mention in the intro as his work was so extensive, this article seemed to have been created out of the same interest that Prosser shares with myself and others here.

Regarding the title, I do agree with Peter, and to change the name would maybe move away from Prosser's original work which would be a pity, one thing I will say, the word Innovation seems to be associated more with science these days rather than Invention, would science and innovation in Birmingham be viable? Taking into account every ones suggestions here, I propose that we blur the boundaries slightly to include comapnies such as Chances (which could be discussed prior to addition) and either keep the title name as it is or change to Science and innovation in Birmingham and give reference to Prosser's research in the intro. Thank you Nick Boulevard 11:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok Andy has removed the Chances section of the article again as he says there is no concensus on this issue, can we do this so that he is happy and the article can progress. Thanks all. Nick Boulevard 17:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Aston Research

source: http://www.birminghampost.net/birmingham-business/birmingham-business-news/technology-and-innovation/2008/11/06/science-minister-lord-drayson-hails-birmingham-s-innovation-65233-22193454/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.232.226 (talk) 00:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)