Talk:Schmaltz

Merge articles on schmaltz & lard?

What is the difference, if any, between lard and schmaltz? It seems that both terms refer to rendered animal fat. Should't these two articles be merged? – Kpalion (talk) 00:41, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe, Schmaltz is the one style(form, cuisine) of the food culture of German and Jewish, that originated from lard. (^.v^.) --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 04:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't think I understand, Sheynhertz-Unbayg. Schmaltz is a style? Could you clarify that please? – Kpalion (talk) 21:50, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me. I think Schmaltz is a processed food that originated from lard, and is not pure "lard"(cf. peanut butter is not peanut, wine is not vine). OK?(confused English) (;.;) --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 11:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I get you now, but according to the article on lard, it is also processed foodstuff, and it's the same thing as schmaltz (in other words, both lard and schmaltz are to animal fat what peanut butter is to peanuts). Or is there some kind of subtelty I didn't catch? – Kpalion (talk) 12:32, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Lard for German language is Schlachtfett or Schweineschmalz(swine's schmaltz). (:-)) --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 13:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. This is supposed to be an English encyclopedia, not a German-English dictionary (Wikipedia is not a dictionary). – Kpalion (talk) 16:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

For one thing, lard typically comes from pigs, which aren't kosher. I, for one, wouldn't want schmaltz to refer largely to a pork product.

I agree. In fact, I think the the link to the German Wikipedia article for "schmalz" should be removed. While they are related, they are distinct.--BillFlis 23:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, my Jewish aunt prepares mostly duck lard, which is entirely kosher. So I suppose we could leave a note here that the schmaltz is a kosher version of lard and merge the rest to where it belongs... Halibutt 13:37, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

So, please correct me if I get it wrong: schmaltz is an English word for kosher lard which came to English from German via Yiddish. That would be logical wouldn't it? – Kpalion (talk) 17:34, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

In the interests of strengthening Wikipedia's Project Judaism, I vote for two separate articles: Schmaltz and Lard. The main difference is that one is kosher and the other is not. Each article could have a "See also" reference to the other one—in the same way that cholent and chamin, which are basically the same type of slow-cooked stew, have different entries in deference to their respective Ashkenazi and Sephardi origins. Yoninah 15:07, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Schmaltz is not kosher lard, for the same reason that shortening is not merely vegetable lard. True, they are both rendered animal fats, but the characteristics of beast (mammalian) fat are different from those of the fat of fowls. Ducks and geese use fat to keep them afloat, and like chickens need it to regulate their body temperature; mammals need less of this. The fat of fowls is oilier and heavier than the fat of pork. So for the same reason that I would not use shortening in a recipe that calls for lard (the result will be dry and dusty), I probably would not substitute lard for schmaltz. (anon)

It should not be merged. Schmaltz is not typically used in the English language except in some urban areas in the USA. I don't think this should even be an issue. Schmaltz is typically poultry related, lard is typically pork, suet is beef, etc. (anon)

I think, english (American, Yiddish, Jewish, and Halibutt's Polish) Schmaltz and German Schmalz is different type. Jewish shmaltz is from chicken. --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 08:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I feel a merger would be inappropriate. Schmaltz, both merely as a processed food, and as a foodstuff particularly emblematic of a specific culture, merits an article on its own apart from lard. It is appropriate for the article to distinguish the German schmaltz which means lard in general from the Yiddish usage of schmaltz or shmalz specific to chicken fat. (I have never heard it applied to other poultry fats as well, such as goose or turkey, but I'll bow to any Yiddish or kashrut authority on that point.) Clarifying the distinction doesn't turn the article into a dictionary entry. Furthermore, including other definitions of the word schmaltz still doesn't turn this into a dictionary entry, it just provides readers with some guidance short of creating a disambig page. (I think a disambig page would be unmerited and might approach being a dictionary-style listing of alternate definitions, rather than an index to substantive articles.)

German schmaltz is spelled Schmalz, and it's made of pigs or ducks. Sth. sold simply als Schmalz is definetely Schweineschmalz or pig schmaltz, schmaltz from goose is sold explicitely as Gänseschmalz. To clear the etymology, Schmalz is German, not Jiddisch. It is derived from schmelzen, which is common in all Germanic Languages eg. as smelt in English or smelten in old dutch. Other words with the same radical are Schmelze (smeltery) or Schmelz (enamel). Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm says: mhd. ahd. smalz, mnd. nnd. smalt, smolt, mndl. nndl. smout, zu schmelzen gehörig. Schmalz was very common in the last centuries, before margarine was invented and when butter was very expensive, so most people used Schmalz as fat. I guess other countries and cuisines share that practice too. From there the word and the practice have found there way into Jiddisch and English.

The schmaltz article could use substantive enhancement about the role of schmaltz in cooking, as a cultural touchstone, as a preservative, and as a staple food so important that German soldiers were issued schmaltz tins to take into the field with them (I don't have a cites handy or I'd add some of this today). When the article progresses that far, the explanations of the etymology and the brief excursion into other usages will be much less prominent.

Finally, schmaltz is an English word, having migrated from German, so the question of becoming a German-English dictionary is not pertinent. Schmaltz is sold as such in Anglophone venues, just as kielbasa is; and like kielbasa, both are included in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, accessible at dictionary.com. Schmaltz is my family surname, and I've spent a lifetime hearing about it, hence all the trivia in this comment. As Wiki's mayonnaise is not subsumed in oil, schmaltz ought not be subsumed in lard. -- Lisasmall 02:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to pig and bacon again. The word as its used in American English refers exclusively to poultry. I'm curious if its the same in England. Perhaps there could be a separate section that discussed that other Eastern European cultures include pig fat in the definition, but that in America specifically it refers exclusively to poultry? Maybe just a little on the etymology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mujeresliebres (talk • contribs) 06:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

If this article is not merged...

• If this article isn't merged then it should be written in paragraph form, rather than as a list of bullet points. ike9898 01:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I vote for a merger on the pretence that Smalec means lard in polish so to say that it means only bird fat is not true.(anon)

Where did you get Polish? The word, now part of American English, arrived from the Yiddish, which in turn had taken it (long ago) from German. The word in English has acquired another, figurative meaning of excessively sentimental music or art. No need for original research, just look it up!--BillFlis 11:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

To clarify what Schmaltz is in Germany: it is the rendered fat or drippings from any roasted animal. So, you can have pork schmaltz, goose schmaltz, bacon schmaltz, chicken schmaltz, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KristenHannum (talk • contribs) 19:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Schmaltz as Music

My own interpretation of the popular meaning Schmaltz as music is a reference specifically to the music of the 40s and 50s, exemplified by such performers as Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin, predating the emergence of Rock (as a white art form with performers such as Elvis Presley). I've never heard the term used to refer to other periods and types of music, despite its sentimentality level, except in reference to the above mentioned musical period. (anon)

Schmaltz as a descriptor of music can cover the genre you describe, but it's also applied to the polkas and waltzes popularized in the mid-20th century. The Lawrence Welk Show would be a good example of this; Liberace and Paul Anka have also been called schmaltzy, and, more recently, Barry Manilow. I am not contradicting your view, just suggesting the term is used so much by critics that it's hard to designate one particular time as the classic or definitive Era of Schmaltz. -- Lisasmall 02:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you're confusing "schmaltzy" with "square". I've looked in three dictionaries, including this one and this one, and they all agree on the sentimental meaning. Moreover, they tell no story of any servant of any queen being the source of the word, but give its etymology merely as the Yiddish meaning of rendered fat. The Dictionary of American Slang dates it to 1951. Also, this reference says that the term is not slang.--BillFlis 13:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Schmaltz in Common-Speak

Great article. I use schmaltz all the time in speech to refer to something excessively cheezy (in the non-literal sense) or sentimental, so that definition seemed bang on to me :D Must be a North American term (I'm from Western Canada and it is used here often enough :) Isn't linguistics interesting? :D DasHip 05:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC) DasHip

As I understand the meaning my father gave me, Smaltz was a slang word used in Minnesota and later migrated to the East. He told me it was used in his high school (around 1936-1939) to discribe White music. He said it was made up from Swing Music and Waltz - commonly attributed to 'White' music.

In the AC/DC rock band's song 'Let there be Rock' there is a reference sung by Bon Scott:

"The white man had the smaltz, the black man had the blues"...

@DasHip - I suspect it's more of a US vs Commonwealth issue. Outside British Jews (I imagine?), only the sentimental version is known in the UK. Partly that's just because Jewish culture has far less influence on British culture than in the Eastern US, and partly because to British eyes/ears - so much of US culture is overly sentimental. We like some bittersweet in there. So a lot of Hollywood films and film music is schmaltzy to the British. The "authentic" meaning may have been applied to specific styles of music in the 1950s originally, but certainly on this side of the pond it's become much more generalised in the same way that "rock n roll" can apply both to specific music of the 1950s and similar music from subsequent decades. It wouldn't hurt to make the sentimental definition more prominent, to make more sense to a more global audience. 92.20.149.175 (talk) 20:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I have never heard it used except in the "excessively cheesy" sense. I think the sentence " English usage tends to follow Yiddish, where it means poultry fat" is misleading as in context it implies that the choice is between chicken fat and any fat, as opposed to "fat" and "cheesy". I suggest that sentence be changed to "English usage tends to use the metaphorical meaning of 'cheesy'."Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:48, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Duck fat?

Is duck fat a form of schmaltz? Many high-end markets sell rendered duck fat and I know its important in Hungarian cuisine. Should uses of duck fat be part of the shmaltz article or should that be in its own article? Peter G Werner 22:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Schmalz = lard

It is true that some kinds of Schmalz taste strongly and have all that funny stuff (Grieben) in them, however the vanilla pure pork fat, nearly taste- and odorless, used for frying, is also called Schmalz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.253.2.236 (talk) 20:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

NOpe. schmalz is the the Americn English word for the type of fat also denoted by the British English word "dripping." Dripping is not lard. Lard typically refers to wet rendered lard - which is almost flavourless. Dripping is referred to as dry rendered lard in the article on lard, but then the rest of the article focuses on wet rendered lard. If anything, this article on Schmalz should be merged with the article on dripping. Toroboro (talk) 18:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Lard it on!

How else to overcome friction and get readers to swallow the topic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnshoemaker (talk • contribs) 09:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Vegetarian schmaltz

After all the great discussion on how important it is that schmaltz be from chicken and not pigs, it seems strange that there is a section on 'vegetarian schmaltz'. Shouldn't that be 'vegetarian imitation schmatlz'? We don't call margarine 'vegan butter', after all.... --Macrakis (talk) 02:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Road Sign??

I find no relevant hits on google for schmaltz "road sign". Is this vandalism or a joke? Gigs (talk) 16:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Duck?

Can it also consist of duck fat? Badagnani (talk) 02:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Art etc

When applied to "excessively sentimental" art and music, it is hard to see a link. However, the artist Herbert Schmalz (without the "t") who lived from the 1860s to 1935 produced some of the most excessively maudlin and sentimental paintings that have ever been created. I would like to suggest here that when applied to art, it is his name that is being remembered, not fatness or wealth. See Sir Galahad They are all pretty tacky, but this one is possibly the worst! Amandajm (talk) 15:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

This may well be true, but you'll need to find a reliable source for it. The OED and Eric Partridge give the 'grease' etymology. A problem with the Herbert Schmalz theory is that starting with the earliest known quotations (OED 1935), 'schmaltz' referred to a style of music, not visual art. --macrakis (talk) 23:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

That's interesting. Poor Herbert Schmalz seems to have faded into oblivion.... his work is truly smaltz, but is very well represented in the storage basements of a great number of art galleries, and was turned into prints for the walls of cottages across several nations.

I can't help thinking that the OED has got it wrong. Short memories and an added "t". If the OED contradicts it, however, it would be very hard to prove. It would be hard to find supporting evidence. Amandajm (talk) 01:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

This isn't of course definitive, but a Google search (including Books and News) for ["herbert schmalz" +schmaltzy] finds only 1 usenet post. So if there is supporting evidence, it is pretty well hidden.... --Macrakis (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, it's easy to see the link. Think of overly rich food made that way by the use of shmaltz in the recipe. Or its use as a butter substitute on bread for meat meals in a kosher household. A full, sweet taste to some, over-the-top to others. Just like sentiment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.200.161.146 (talk) 01:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Schmalz as last name

Schmaltz and Schmalz are also common last names amongst Ashkenazi Jewish people of German and Austrian descent[1] as it is meant to imply that the bearer has enough wealth to regularly purchase schmaltz.[citation needed]

That sounds dubious to me. The name seems to me more likely to mean 'chandler'. And why is this in the first section? (unsigned contribution by User:Jive Dadson on 2010-09-10T01:25:53)

Schmalz/Schmaltz

Well, I was looking for this article due to the AC/DC song (Let There be Rock). Is the common English spelling "Schmaltz" or is it - like in German - Schmalz?--PeterTrompeter (talk) 12:58, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

the lard pot

The article mentions the expression falling into the schmaltz pot, meaning to be lucky. Would it be fitting to add that, incidentally, the similar German saying stepping into the lard pot means just the opposite, namely to make a faux-pas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andersenman (talk • contribs) 17:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Refocus article?

What does everyone think of this: limit this article to just the use of "schmaltz" in Jewish cuisine, i.e. rendered goose, duck, or chicken fat, leaving all mention of pork schmaltz--i.e. lard--to the article on lard, perhaps creating a new "Lard by country" section and have the text taken from this article be the Germany/Austria section or something. Furthermore, the principles that underlie WP:UE and WP:UCN would suggest a similar change--when I, a native speaker of English, talk about "schmaltz" in English, I'm almost never talking about lard. Were I in Germany, I might say "schmaltz" while speaking English in reference to lard if it were something like griebenschmaltz that doesn't have a native name in English, but then it would be a foreign term. However, when I say "schmaltz" in America, I don't mean lard. I mean either poultry fat or sappy sentimentality--usually the latter, since only Jews and Judaeophile foodies like me know what the former is. In these Yiddish-derived senses, the word is fully naturalized into American English, and on that grounds I would suggest that we focus on the word as it is used in American English--poultry fat, sentiment, and colorful Yinglish idioms. Lockesdonkey (talk) 21:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Refocus is a sad idea

Realistically the word Schmaltz was brought into the English Language trough German and Yiddish. We are now arguing for a total dominance of the one influence over the other and this way to justify a narrow view on the term. I don’t believe that the question “What is Schmaltz” would be clearly answered by English speakers throughout the world as “Animal Fat NOT from pigs”. Besides other’s, I lived in South Africa, UAE and the UK. In neither place I had a problem to buy Schmaltz from pig fat. From conversations, with locals (non-Germans), I would clearly take the impression away that they understand Schmaltz as fat of different origins, including pigs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverBischoff (talk • contribs) 10:06, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Poor Quality

While focussing on keeping this article narrow to one cultural aspect of subject, the content seems to be reduced to little informative points and more anecdotal story telling.

Examples in Vegetarian schmaltz - Only Advertisement?

• I cannot find much about Debra's Schmaltz… It seems to not be listed on the Heartfoundation’s Web site http://www.heartfoundation.co.za/products

• The reference to astray.com seems to have little substance “As far as I can tell the first commercially made vegetarian "schmaltz" was made …”

---

For the sake of the English speaking world, get over the ideology and add some content (That was partially there before). If I want to know something about Schmalz, this is currently not the place to go. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OliverBischoff (talk • contribs) 10:58, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Blacklisted Links Found on Schmaltz

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In German we don´t call tallow schmalz we call it "Talg" https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talg ""The English term "schmaltz" is derived from Yiddish, and is cognate with the German term Schmalz, meaning "rendered animal fat", regardless of source: both tallow and lard are considered forms of Schmalz in German"" this is wrong — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.212.74.143 (talk) 18:48, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Smalec

I was looking for an article on the Polish food Smalec and the term redirected here. Smalec is a Polish spread made from rendered pig fat, so it doesn't seem appropriate that it should redirect to an article on kosher cuisine.

This recipe seems fairly typical of many that are available online- all of which are based on rendered pork fat.

https://polishhousewife.com/smalec-recipe/

Maybe 'Smalec' should redirect to the article on lard rather than to this article- at least until such time as there's enough information provided by someone who knows about the subject for it to have its own article.

IrishPete 18:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)