Talk:Scandinavia/Archive 9

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"most commonly"?

The first paragraph currently states that in English usage, Scandinavia is "most commonly" used to refer to Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. This would seem to be WP:OR, or do we have a source with frequency analysis? Please note, I'm not making a comment on what Scandinavia is (we've done that to death for over a decade on this talk page), merely on whether we can state what usage is "most common". Jeppiz (talk) 10:18, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

The source used in the opening sentence (Oxford Dictionaries) says "A cultural region consisting of the countries of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark and sometimes also of Iceland, Finland, and the Faroe Islands." "Sometimes also" meaning it is less common to include the last three, that's how I'm interpreting that at least. TylerBurden (talk) 11:41, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but that seems to be to use a source related to accuracy to make a claim about frequency, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure we both agree with the definition of Oxford Dictionaries, but my impression is that the wider usage is every bit as common. Obviously my impression is not something to include (would be wildly WP:OR) but it would probably be better to use the wording of the source rather than to make unsupported claims about frequency. It's a small detail, with no real change in how readers will read, but just to make sure we represent sources accurately. Jeppiz (talk) 15:47, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if it was changed to reflect the source more specifically, feel free to edit it. TylerBurden (talk) 11:06, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't see a problem - the majority of English dicts and encycs and similar, use the 'English' definition, ie "most commonly"= most Eng sources. In one sense it is superfluous since obviously the definition used on Eng WP will be that ordinarily used in English. The phrasing exists to allow for the secondary point of information, that there is a 'stricter' definition used in the region and by some Eng sources. I think it is informative to say - as we do - that English speakers have 'got it wrong' somewhat. I think this is an instance where WP:IAR applies in the interests of clarity. I don't see a problem but am open to other phrasing which is equally clear and informative.Pincrete (talk) 04:57, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Pincrete, I pretty much agree with all you say. The pedant in me needs to point out that it's not that English speakers 'got it wrong' but rather that (in English), "we" often get it wrong ;-) This is far from the only example of different languages using the same name for at least partially different regions. Many languages use Asia for the entire continent though the original 'correct' usage is restricted to Anatolia. In Swedish, we use Storbritannien to refer to the 'United Kingdom', and that usage is also 'wrong' in that 'Great Britain' is the main island of the United Kingdom, not the country. Numerous other examples abound. I mention this as, throughout the years, I've seen so often the discussion circle around 'English usage is wrong', when it should be 'English usage is somewhat different to ours' (common usage, that is; as the article makes clear, English encyclopaedias do tend to favour a definition more or less identical to our (Swedish) understanding of the word. Jeppiz (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

'got it wrong' was in quotes. My recollection of the RfC which brought me to this article in the first place (a few years back) is that practically all English dicts and encycs used the looser - English - definition, whilst acknowledging both usages. Pincrete (talk) 04:42, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

The Scandinavian countries

The web-site wrongly states that Scandinavia consists of 3 countries: Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Scandinavia gets its name from the Scandic mountains running at the border between Norway and Sweden reaching Finland up north in Lapland. Scandinavia: Norway, Sweden and Finland. Denmark is one of the Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Iceland), but not a Scaninavian country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:3AC0:E400:D0BF:E3BB:F182:B49E (talk) 14:46, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, it is the mountain range that got the name from Scandinavia, not the other way around. Most likely the term Scandinavia is derived from Scania — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.254.58.190 (talk) 10:54, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Scandinavia has various meanings in English, which, hopefully the article makes clear - those meanings are not necessarily the same as the 'local' or 'original' meanings - much as 'Balkan' has a number of uses distinct from the original meaning.Pincrete (talk) 17:42, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Britannica says the same as us: "Scandinavia, historically Scandia, part of northern Europe, generally held to consist of the two countries of the Scandinavian Peninsula, Norway and Sweden, with the addition of Denmark. Some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland on geologic and economic grounds and of Iceland and the Faroe Islands on the grounds that their inhabitants speak North Germanic (or Scandinavian) languages related to those of Norway and Sweden."[1] --Chuka Chief (talk) 18:35, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Not it's not, you confuse the Scandinavian Peninsula with the cultural region knowns as Scandinavia. You do know that the name "Europe" for instance do apply the British Isles, despite them not geographically being a part of the European continent? It's not that straight forward - easy, but also false of you base your whole argument on geography. 81.161.157.240 (talk) 20:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Locals shall always have the right to define the term they wish used of themselves. Especially in a global age. People in the Nordics use the term for a reason, and frankly for a Finn to be called Scandinavian is offensive and ignorant. English speakers can do better! Bjananas (talk) 13:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Bjananas, the article records, but does not adhere to local use. There are countless examples around the world of such variations. Are you sure that you use the word 'Balkan' in strict adherence to local use? How about 'British Isles'? We are not here to tell English speakers how they OUGHT TO use a term? Recording how locals use it is useful info though. Where exactly would we stop? Deutschland rather than Germany? Firenze rather than Florence? Where? Pincrete (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Pincrete The point is that if the locals problematize the use of a certain term, then others ought to listen, learn and adapt. As English is a lingua franca, the language stands to an even higher standard than the rest. Bjananas (talk) 17:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Pincrete In what major literature is Finland and Iceland included in Scandinavia? I have never ever seen that in Scandinavian literature. Is it possible to stress that including Finland and Iceland is really unusual, by removing them from the infoboxes or using other fonts, parentheses or or similar? Tomastvivlaren (talk) 22:33, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Tomastvivlaren, in pretty much all English dictionaries and encyc's, the broader English usages are noted. We cite OED in the article. Not in 'local' use of course, which we record. The best analogy I have ever come up with is the word 'Balkan', which has a fairly precise local use, and a much looser use elsewhere. Also, calling Ireland part of the "British Isles" is anathema to most Irish, but is commonplace in geographical - especially geological and metereological - usage. Pincrete (talk) 08:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Tomastvivlaren, sorry but this is really getting a bit tiresome after more than years of repeating the same argument. On English Wikipedia, we follow English usage. What we may have seen in Swedish literature, or Turkish literature, or Burmese literature is all irrelevant. Om jag hade en krona för varje gång någon dykt upp med uppfattningen att den svenska definitionen är "den rätta" och andra definitioner behöver "korrigeras" så att de motsvarar den svenska... Det fungerar inte så. Jeppiz (talk) 00:33, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

@Pincrete and Jeppiz: Ok you are right, the English definition should be the main one, but why not mention both views? Is it totally uninteresting that the definition differs between researchers and authorities from different countries? Showing several POV:s is the usual Wikipedia way of dealing with surprised readers and avoiding edit conflicts. Tomastvivlaren (talk) 22:51, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@Tomastvivlaren: Not quite sure I understand. Our local usage is already covered in detail in the article, making it clear what we mean by 'Skandinavien'. Jeppiz (talk) 01:16, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I made an attempt to fix the problem.Tomastvivlaren (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2023 (UTC)