Talk:Scáthach

Hiya. A friend of mine pointed me to where it previously said that Cú Chulainn raped Aífe in this article. This is a (wilful?) misunderstanding of the context of the piece, the morality displayed throughout and the nature of the characters themselves. Aífe is not a victim. Cú doesn't walk up to her and threaten her with a sword to have sex with him. She comes looking for a fight with Scathach, Cú stands in as her champion, and when he defeats her and is supposed to kill her, as agreed between both parties when they entered the duel, he offers to spare her if she will mother his child, and she accepts. She was obliged to die but took the opportunity not to. She is not at swordpoint because he wants to have sex with her, she's at swordpoint because she's just lost a duel and is also highly dangerous herself. To apply the word "rape" in this situation displays an almost aggressive will to misconstrue the nature of the story and completely ignores the context of the incident. Like Cú's possible homosexuality, this is up to people to interpret themselves to some degree but not to interpret for the whole world. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deathtocaesar (talk • contribs) 18:09, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Cúchulainn met and fought Aife on the rope of feats. Aife smashed Cúchlainn's weapon. All she left him was a part of his sword no bigger than a fist.

"Look! Oh, look!" Cúchulainn said. "Aife's charioteer and her two horses and the chariot have fallen into the valley! They are all dead!"

"Aife looked round and Cúchulainn leaped at her and seized her by the two breasts. He took her on his back like a sack, and brought her back to his own army. He threw her heavily to the ground and held a naked sword over her.

"A life for a life, Cúchulainn!" Aife said.

""Grant me three desires," he said.

"What you can ask in one breath you may have," she said.

"My three desires," he said, "are: hostages for Scáthach, and never attack her again; you company tonight at your own fort; and bear me a son."

"I grant all you ask," she said. (Thomas Kinsella, The Táin, pages 32-33)

So the episode clearly has her being coerced at swordpoint after being taken off to the enemy camp. She's forced into the situation so her life will be spared and that's all there is to it really. There's nothing in the text to suggest that she's at swordpoint because she's a danger to herself or anyone else at this point, implied or otherwise. Ririgidi (talk) 23:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

This is definitely not rape. The story clearly states that Aife initiated aggression, lost a duel which forfeited her life, and struck a bargain at the point of death to exit the duel honorably without being killed. She was not taken by an aggressor (she was the aggressor), the purpose of the intercourse was not dominance or sexual pleasure (the duel for dominance had already been won and the goal is clearly stated to be an heir), she proposed the bargain ("A life for a life, Cu Chulainn!"), and most critically, the intercourse did not happen at knife point. Cu Chulainn asked to come to her fort where she maintained a guard, where she willingly let him in, and willingly (hours after the dual) conceived a son. She could easily have changed her mind, fled, or had him killed. She then raised the child in accordance with Cu Chulainn's wishes, passed on the prescribed taboos, and sent him off to his father at the agreed upon time. To call this rape is anachronistic, infantilizing, and intentionally misleading.

This is an instance of child selling with possible aspects of fostering.

From a myth/folklore point of view, the scene seems simply to explain Connla's prowess (having two great warrior parents) which amplifies Cu Chulainn's own status in the Sohrab-esque episode of the Death of Aife's Only Son (a title which itself points to an enduring matrilineal form of decent that does not suggest rape).Miotas333 (talk) 16:50, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Coerced consent is not consent. Sex without consent = rape. At any point in history. In myth or not. A "choice" between death and impregnation is not consent. It's a weird story, written down by monks. We are limited in interpreting it, in assuming what all is meant here. But agreeing to let someone impregnate you because the alternative is death = rape. This has been mostly stable in the article, and WP:SPAs removing it with statements like "She's not a victim" is insensitive and insulting to rape survivors. Maybe read up on what rape is. Rape survivors don't get to choose about being "victims", and attitudinal or literary interpretations don't change what it is. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

No CorbieVreccan, comparing this situation to rape is insensitive. I appreciate your concern for victims, and I'm sure its well intentioned, but here it's misguided and inappropriate. You're the one interpreting the literature. She didn't have sex at knife point and no force or coercion was used. They had a duel, then they had sex. The part you're objecting to didn't even happen in the original text, just the translation you happen to be able to read. You're not qualified to edit this article, and you've apparently been vandalizing/edit warring on this article for (literally) years. You don't own Wikipedia and this article isn't yours to protect. The community has been pretty clear and you immediately reverting edits doesn't constitute 'stable'. You should take a step back, stop misusing WP:SPA, and work on some other article.73.60.116.194 (talk) 02:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

If you think Kinsella mistranslated it, post a link to the original OI and I'll check the translation once again. Many people have edited this over the years and kept the text as it is now. If you don't realize this, you haven't been paying attention. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 02:40, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not a regular Wikepedia editor, so no, I haven't been paying attention. I came to this article for information, but a quick glance at the edit history shows your tag far more than anyone else. It appears you've 'adopted' this page which can be dangerous, and it's led you to edit war based on your personal opinions. There are several translations of translations of this story. Here is the original: 'luid Aífe ingen Airdgeme cuici & ba torrach forácaib & asbert fria no bérad mac'. That is literally 'Aoife, daughter of Airdgem went to him and left pregnant and he told her she'd bear a son'. Others may have inserted their own assumptions into that (it was very common with 19th century Anglo writers and even some medieval Irish writers), but that's the original. You've very clearly contributed your side to this article, please let Wikipedia do its thing and go work on something else.73.60.116.194 (talk) 17:09, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Unsourced quotes aren't usable. Cite your sources. Kuno Meyer also translates the original OI (not that bit) as standing over her with his naked sword, etc. Not knowing how to use the 'pedia, lack of familiarity with the longer edit histories of articles, the long histories of people's work here over 15 or 20 years, etc, is not an argument in your favor. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:34, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

What is the correct pronunciation of Scathach? Bastie 03:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Depends. In Old Irish it would be "SKAH-thakh" (with "ah" being the long "a" of "father", "kh" being the "ch" in Scottish "loch", capitals representing stress); in Modern Irish it would be "SKAH-hakh". I'll leave the IPA version to someone who knows how to work it. --Nicknack009 12:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Aha, interesting. Thanks. Bastie 14:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Style question here. I had posted a "pop culture references" subsection, but somebody deleted it. I was about to repost it, but it occured to me that there might have been a good reason for its deletion. Is it inappropriate to post that kind of thing?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sociotard (talk • contribs)

I think that falls under the guideline Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

^why? most articles over mythological figures and creatures have sub-sets in them listing their apperances in fiction, music, and other media. (PS)I had also put in a reference to a fictional version which has been deleted.{The Rhuen}

Because it's unencyclopedic. Other articles may have trivia sections, but I don't think they should, and the fact that they do certainly doesn't require this one to follow suit. Additionally, there's trivia and then there's sub trivia- the reference previously added was not actually about the subject of this article, it was about a different character (possibly) named for her in a video game. Other trivia additions in the past included a mention of a non-notable book about her and a mention that she appears in a trading card came (though at least these were about the Irish figure). I don't think any of this belongs in an encyclopedia article, especially when the article's so short as it is.--Cúchullain ^t/c 05:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

In short: a video-game, movie, comic book, ect.. version so long as its not a full article length and only a foot note should be part of the article. {The Rhuen}

Proposed merge

This is not remotely controversial - the other article is just a misspelling. I'll just go ahead and do the merge. --Nicknack009 (talk) 23:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. I just turned Scathatch into a redirect, as there was nothing useful in it anyway. Her appearance as a vampire in a book series called "The Alchemist", without knowing anything about that series, even who wrote it, can't be considered notable. --Nicknack009 (talk) 23:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

The series is the Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel by Michael Scott. Book one is the Alchemyst, book two is the Magician, and book three is the Sorceress. --67.140.140.86 (talk) 01:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't remember this?

"Scathach and Aife are twins, but they fight for Cu Chulainn's love and become rivals." I don't remember any telling where they weren't rivals before, nor do I remember them fighting after Cu Chulainn makes peace between the two. Considering that there are so many versions of these stories, I could be wrong, but it sounds suspect to me.--RPhilbrook (talk) 20:22, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Red Sonja

Scathach is the name of the goddess that supposedly entered a pact with Red Sonja of Marvel Comics, granting her great strength and battle prowess in exchange for an oath of chastity. Should this not be included in the Popular Culture section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.188.68.54 (talk) 02:17, 11 February 2019 (UTC)