Talk:Saving Light/GA1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

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Reviewer: Aoba47 (talk · contribs) 02:06, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I will grab this for a review if that is okay with you. I have never heard of this song before so I look forward to learning about it. Aoba47 (talk) 02:06, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

While I was doing the review, I noticed issues with the article’s prose. I would highly encourage you to put in a request for a copy-edit (Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests). Y Request sent. Micro (Talk) 08:47, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and lead

I would use a more descriptive ALT text for the infobox image.

By more descriptive, I mean actually describe what is in the image. Adding the artists' name is not what I meant and it is not particularly helpful as an ALT text. Aoba47 (talk) 04:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see, but i'm not exactly sure what to put into as the alt. Would "The cover art for Saving Light by Gareth Emery and Standerwick, featuring a mountain range during sunset with a person posing out of focus" suffice?. Micro (Talk) 05:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would just use "An image of a mountain range during sunset with a person posing out of focus". The beginning part "The cover art for Saving Light by Gareth Emery and Standerwick" is not particularly helpful as ALT text imo. Aoba47 (talk) 18:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC) Y[reply]

I do not see how the remix cover art is necessary. It is almost an exact copy of the original single cover. I would remove it. Remember that non-free media should only be used sparingly, and I cannot see a strong enough justification for the inclusion of this. Y
The genres need to be cited through a reliable and third-party reference. I do not see any citations for “vocal trance” and “uplifting trance” even though they are both included in the infobox.

In the featured article Habits (Stay High) and S&M (song), both infoboxes have genres listed, but do not have any citations in the infobox (with the exception of Stay High's original single artwork description), so I'm conflicted if I should put citations in or not as I am using those two articles as examples. Micro (Talk) 08:36, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Genres are required to have citations to avoid original research. I am not calling for citations in the infobox (the same comment that I have about citations in the lead applies to citations in infoboxes). If you look at either article that you cited, you will see that the genres are supported through citations in the body of the article. If you do not have a citation to support “vocal trance” or “uplifting trance”, then it counts as original research and needs to be removed. Right now, I only see citations and information that the song is an example of trance but not these specific aspects of the genre that you have mentioned above. Aoba47 (talk) 23:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC) Y[reply]

In the infobox, you say that the song was recorded between 2016 and 2017, but that is not explicitly stated anywhere in the article or supported with a citation. Y
In the infobox, you say that the song was released by Armada Music and Monstercat, but in the lead, you only mention Monstercat. You also do not reference Armada Music in the body of the article outside of the “Release history” table so I was confused by this choice. Y
References for the lead are usually discouraged unless it is controversial information. The information and associated sources should be in the body of the article, so I do not believe that the references in the lead are necessary. Y
I would avoid putting quotes in the lead, and I would leave them for the body of the article. I would paraphrase "waving the EDM flag for years” and "has been doing just fine without him”. Y
I would clarify the parts about Lawrence in the lead, ideally through paraphrasing. I think that I understand it, but I am not sure. Lawrence is criticizing Emery for saying that trance music is on the decline. Is that the case? It needs some more work and context for an outsider, like me, to understand. Y
All the information from the lead should be present in the body of the article in some form. There are several points in the lead that are not in the body of the article at all. Aoba47 (talk) 03:17, 3 June 2018 (UTC) Y[reply]

Background and composition

Please use the full names of both producers when you first mention them in the body of the article (remember that the lead and the body of the article are treated separately) and link both of them. Also link Haliene on the first instance you mention her for the same reasons. Y
What is EDC Las Vegas 2016, specifically EDC? Is it an acronym? Could you spell it out for an outsider like me to understand? Is there a possible link to a Wikipedia article? Y
I have two comments for this part (and was released officially on 30 January 2017, 6 months after its first public debut.). I would remove “officially” unless you mean the song leaked prior to that to suggest an “unofficial” release. Also, what do you mean by “first public debut”? Do you mean something like a live performance? This part does not make sense to me. Y
This part (donated directly to anti-bullying organization Ditch the Label, in hopes of ending bullying and supporting those who were and are victims of bullying, with Emery previously being a bully victim himself.) needs to be rewritten completely. It seems rather repetitive, particularly witthe repetition of the word “bully” and its variants in such close proximity. I think that this information can be conveyed in a more concise manner. Y
I would look at the second paragraph as a whole to avoid the repetition of the word “bully” and its variants. Y
I would move this sentence (The song is about standing up to bullying and helping bully victims in their time of need and to give support, being their "saving light”.) before the information on the foundation and donations as it would seem more logical that way to me. I was a little confused at first on why the song was attached to the organization until you told me that the song was explicitly about bully. Y
For a section with the word “Composition” in its title, there is actually very little to no content on the song’s composition. Was there any critical commentary on the song’s sound, instrumental, or composition in general? The same question applies to the lyrics. Y
I am not sure if the sentence on the tour belongs in this section. I understand that it is relevant to the article as a whole, but it does not seem to fit in its current location. I have a few questions about the structure of the article, but I will go into that further below. Y
Did they perform this song on the tour? That is not made clear either way. Y

Removed the section as it didn't seem to have much importance. Micro (Talk) 13:25, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Music video

I would remove the music video screenshot. I have always been advised to keep non-free media usage to a mininal unless it is something that illustrates a point, typically something from a critic/third-party, reliable source, that cannot be conveyed in words. I do not see how the screenshot is particularly helpful. Bullying is a pretty universal topic that we can all imagine without the need for a visual aid. Y
What is the source for the Synposis subsection? Y
For this part (is centred around a secondary school girl as she is bullied and harassed by other students), I would change it to (is centred around a secondary school girl who is bullied and harassed by other students). Y
This section (The teacher later finds the girl being harassed by several students and intervenes, scolding one of the bullies shortly before the girl runs off to a seaside cliff and contemplates committing suicide. The teacher chases after the girl and attempts to talk the girl out of committing suicide. As the teacher attempts to talk the girl out of committing suicide, she is reminded by her son, who previously committed suicide by jumping off the same cliff. The girl chooses not to commit suicide and instead embraces the teacher.) is rather awkwardly worded and constructed, particularly with the repetition of the phrase “committing suicide”. Y
I would revise this sentence (When developing ideas for the music video, Emery, Roxanne, Haliene, Matthew Steeper, and Karra thought of making a music video that would provide hope for dealing with adversity with bullying becoming the target theme.) as it is rather awkwardly phrased. Y
Since you already introduced Ditch the Label in a previous section, you do not need the descriptive phrase in front of it. Y
This part (to help develop a storyline on bullying, making sure that the depiction of bullying is as authentic as possible, showcasing the negative and harmful effects of bullying leading to the thought of suicide and how only one voice can save a life.) is very awkward, particularly due to the reptition of the word “bullying”. Y
Were there any critical responses to the video? Y
When was the video released? Where was the video released (i.e. the platform)? Y
I would move this section after the “Reception and release” section. That way the information about the song itself is kept together rather than scattered. Y

Reception and release

Remove the audio sample, unless you can find further critical commentary to prove how it is helpful to the reader. I do not see how the audio sample really illustrates anything. The reader does not need to hear the song in order to understand the lyrics. Y
I would make this (with Sergei Zarovnyi of Billboard stating "'Saving Light' is full of emotion at every turn, from the Haliene's incredible vocals to the gripping production and lyrics that speak to the soul.”) into its own sentence and remove the “with” construction at the start.Y
This section needs some rather heavy revision. I would suggest that you look at this resource (Wikipedia:Copyediting reception sections) to see how to best handle this type of section as it currently reads like random quotes/critic’s opinions scattered over three paragraphs and does not have cohesion. Y
I would retitle this section “Critical reception” as there is not any information on the song’s release here. Y

Saving Light (Acoustic Version) and Saving Light (The Remixes)

I am not a fan of the way that these two sections are set up. It is a little odd to create a section devoted to one version of the song and then another for a different version. I would recommend that you combine both sections until the title “Release and remixes” as done in the S&M (song) article or just “Remixes” if you do not want to add the release information here. I would also move this section after the “Background and composition” section and before the “Reception” section. Y

A State of Trance album and Tune of the Year

I would combine this section with the “Reception” section as I do not understand why it should be a separate section. I would also work on the prose of this section. Y
Armin van Buuren is linked twice here. Y

Track listing

I do not think that this part (All tracks written by Roxanne Emery, Kelly Sweet, Matthew Steeper, and Karra.) is necessary. Y

Credits and personnel

This type of section is needed for a song article. Please refer to other GAs or FAs to see what I mean. Y

Release history

You do not mention Monstercat 030 – Finale anywhere in the article. I would correct this as it is very confusing. Y

I do not see how this was done. I still do not see a mention of Monstercat 030 – Finale in the body of the article. Aoba47 (talk) 15:23, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Y[reply]

Please itaclize Monstercat 030 – Finale and A State of Trance 2017 and put Saving Light in quotations. Y

References

What makes the following reliable sources: EDMTunes, EDM Saurce, Trance Project, Your EDM, EARMILK, We Rave You, www.thenocturnaltimes.com, Trance Hub, A State of Trance, Trance Project, djbios?

I am not sure what to and how to show that these are reliable sources. Micro (Talk) 22:04, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am personally not familiar with the sources. I am not saying that you cannot use them, but I would suggest providing evidence that these sites are not just blogs and have some sort of editorial oversight or staff (which you can typically find on a "About Page" page/tab or something similar). I hope that answers your question, but feel free to ask for further clarification. You have done a great job with this article so far. Aoba47 (talk) 22:11, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank for clarification, but I still don't understand how to show that these references are reliable on the actual wikipedia article or if it isn't that at all. I know for sure that EDM Sauce, Your EDM, We Rave You and others are good enough, but I don't know how to actually show it on the wiki page or if its not like that at all. Micro (Talk) 01:06, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You could provide the links to the parts of the websites that support that they are reliable and appropriate for use on Wikipedia. Aoba47 (talk) 02:51, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, so I just prove to you why they are good enough and not on the actual article? Micro (Talk) 03:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is what I am asking for. Aoba47 (talk) 03:39, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah ok, I just didn't really understand at first.

List of 'About Us' pages (with list of staff if possible):

EDM Sauce - https://www.edmsauce.com/about-us/staff/

Founder & CEO - Steven Jacobs, Editor in Chief - Erik Mahal, VP of Events - Kris Novak, Director of Photography - Joseph D'Oria, VP of HR Operations - Bruce Genovese

Your EDM - https://www.youredm.com/about-us/

CEO - Elliot Sachs, CFO - Nick Ward, Editor-in-Chief - Matthew Meadow, Label Director - Greg Sills, Chief Content & Social Media Manager - Lucas, Content Curator - Ben Jacobs, 15 other staff.

EARMILK - https://earmilk.com/about/

Director / Partnerships - Inna Shnayder, Co-Founder / president - Montrey Whittaker, Co-Founder / publisher - Blake Edwards, Senior Editor - David Sikorskin, Associate Editor - Lindsay Herr, Managing Editor - Steph Evans, Experimental Editor - Mike Waite, Indie Editor - Bronte Martin, Dance/Electronic Editor - Ry Smith, Hip-Hop Editor - Jahn Parker, Director of Social Media - Jeff Lourenço, Social Media Associate - Kaley Vick, Daily Graphics Lead - Alex Geerken

We Rave You - https://weraveyou.com/the-crew/

CEO & Founder - Yotam Dov, CO-Manager - Tim Olsson, Editor - Shantanu Singh, Instagram Manager - Antonio Di Giorgio, Writer - Abhinav Manmohan, Editor - Florito Maniego, Spotify Manager - Tomas Zboril, Youtube Manager - Petar Lazarevic, Writer - Raymond Murphy, Brand Manager - Branka Maxim, Twitter Manager - Henry Wallis, Editor - Amy Martine Shaw, Writer - Alexander Costello, Writer - Sean Wolfe, Writer - Keith Warren, Writer - James Todoroski, Editor - Jake Gable, Video Manager / Writer - Johan de Kock

The Nocturnal Times - http://www.thenocturnaltimes.com/about-us/

Founder & CEO - Mark Mancino, Social Media Coordinator - Mason Siegel, Editor-at-Large & Ad Sales - Kris Kallenbach, Senior Editor - Caroline O’Keefe, Writer - Ariana O’Keefe, Writer - Charlie McMillan, Writer - Maria Marcano, Writer - Rebecca Sirota

djbios - http://www.djbios.com/about/

editorial oversight or staff: John Cameron

A State of Trance - http://www.astateoftrance.com/about/
EDMTunes - https://www.edmtunes.com/about-us/
Trance Project - None, source removed.
Trance Hub - None, source removed.

External links

There should be a section like this with a link to the music video. Please refer to other GAs or FAs to see what I mean. Y

Final comments

I can see that a lot of work has been put into this article, but I believe that it falls short of the expectations for a GA. The prose is questionable and awkward at various points. The structure is rather confusing. There is a lack of real information on the song’s composition and lyrics, other than it is a trance song of some sort and it is about bully. There are several instances of non-free media that are not necessary and should be removed. I am also hesitant about the reliability of certain sources. This article still requires a lot more work, but I will leave this open to try and help. If the above comments are addressed, then I will go through the article again to provide further recommendations. Aoba47 (talk) 02:51, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When you have addressed all of my comments, please ping me so I know. Aoba47 (talk) 19:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoba47: Ok, I believe that I have addressed all of your comments. Micro (Talk) 10:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for addressing everything. I will wait for the copyedit request to go through, and then I will most likely pass this. Great work with it! Aoba47 (talk) 17:34, 8 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve just been informed that the copyediting has just been completed, thank you for your time. Micro (Talk) 23:31, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments

This sentence (The music video was announced by Monstercat via their YouTube channel on 24 January 2017 and was released on 30 January 2017.) requires a citation. Aoba47 (talk) 15:21, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Y[reply]

Used YouTube itself as a reference as both Habits (Stay High) and S&M (song) used YouTube as a reference in similar fashions.

The "Track listing" section requires citation. Aoba47 (talk) 15:21, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Y[reply]

Used iTunes as a reference as both Habits (Stay High) and S&M (song) did the same.

The "Track listing" section should be retitled to "Track listings" as there are multiple track listings. Aoba47 (talk) 15:21, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Y[reply]
There are a lot of sources after this sentence (On 19 December, he revealed the top 50 tracks, including "Saving Light", to comprise his 2017 trance mix album, A State of Trance 2017.) so I would suggest bundling them together to avoid citation overkill. Aoba47 (talk) 15:23, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Y[reply]

Verdict

Thank you for addressing everything. I apologize for the length of the review. I just wanted to be as thorough as possible and help make the article as strong as it could be. You have done great work, and I will ✓ Pass this. Aoba47 (talk) 00:32, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.