Talk:Samuel Weems

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Armenia: The Secrets of a "Christian" Terrorist State was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 14 June 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Samuel Weems. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

This article was nominated for deletion on 7 June 2009. The result of the discussion was keep.

Untitled

For a man who has generated such controversy, practically no information exists about Samuel Weems, except for numerous articles in Turkish publications about his death and some interviews with Tall Armenian Tale. It's commonly said that he was a convicted felon and disbarred lawyer, but I can't find any credible sources to support it. I'm also not certain if Weems ever was a judge, just that he devoted the later years of his life to writing hate literature. There's not a single trace of the "Saint John's Press" that supposedly prints his books. For all I know Samuel Weems doesn't even exist and is an invention of the Turkish government. Is there anybody who can clarify beyond a doubt what his life was like? - Augustgrahl 19:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think more research needs to be done about the guy. I also added a note regarding his denial of the Armenian Genocide even after the Arkansas recognized it. -- Clevelander 15:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Practically every website on the net denying the Armenian Genocide recommends his book, but as for the man himself, almost no information exists about his life, and the little that does either portrays him as a retired judge or a disgraced lawyer and criminal. It doesn't help that he seems to be just about unknown outside of Turkey. -- Augustgrahl 15:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sam Weems was an Alabama Lawyer. He married a Turkish lady and naturally felt interested in everything about Türks including the problems with Armenians. He started to write a book trying to show how Armenians falsified the history. From that point on Weems' life took a funny turn; it was as if there was an organized effort to discredit his character and destroy his life. He was debarred over petty matters and than tried for arson. He got his book printed in 2002 and died shortly afterwards.

Disbarred Lawyer Characterization Appears Most Accurate

The Armenian Reporter article cited provides, via photographs of an Arkansas Democrat article, clear evidence that Samuel Weems was convicted for arson. Given this, the frequent claim that Weems was a judge seems dubious (I doubt somebody with his criminal record could be one), and I've changed the text accordingly. -- Augustgrahl 21:01, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arsenic99, the only time its ok to alter or delete other users comments, is when the comment is violating BLP. Since the object of this article is diseased and his criminal record is well documented in the article I reverted you. VartanM (talk) 07:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality

I'm going to add the neutrality tag, as it is clear that this article isn't neutral (did his life really start in 1975 with his disbarring?) There is almost no positive information in here at all. Now, I appreciate that it can be hard to find information, but come on, if he was a disbarred lawyer he must have been to law school, and must be on an alumni list somewhere. Do some research. When did he gain his degree, which university did he study at? What was his year of birth? Where did he grow up? If we can get this much information maybe we can think about removing the tag. If we can't get this information then we have to ask, really, is he sufficiently notable? - Francis Tyers · 00:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think he's notable enough to warrant an article. He's mentioned in at least one major Turkish newspaper article [1], is mentioned on just about every big anti-Armenian site on the net [2][3], and was notable enough to be denounced by the Armenian Assembly of America [4]. His anti-Armenian views are well publicized in areas dealing with the matter. However, the details of his life are sketchy at best, and many claims made by his supporters, such as that he was a judge, seem outright fabricated. I'd include any of his positive acheivements, but I am sad to say that there simply isn't enough information out there available to me about his life before his venture into hate literature. -- Augustgrahl 01:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest that isn't much to say. I've been mentioned in a major English newspaper (The Guardian), but that doesn't make me notable. Either we include the positive aspects (as described by the TAT hate site), or we leave out the negative aspects (as described by the Armenian sites). Really, I'm thinking AfD is the option for the man, or maybe a merge with his vanity-press book. - Francis Tyers · 09:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The thing about using the Armenian sources instead was that the article actually presented real evidence (copy of a newspaper article about his conviction for arson), so it would seem that their claims were true. If you think it's really necessary we could open up an AfD. -- Augustgrahl 14:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Probably best if we merge the relevant information into Armenia: The Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State. About the claims, they make several claims, only one of which is supported by an extract from a newpaper article where the body print is too small to read. I don't see any source for his wife being of Turkish descent, or for anyone speculating anything about it. Incidentally as this is a vanity press book, are there any figures for how many copies it has sold, and if the publishing house is still going? - Francis Tyers · 15:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See also: Wikipedia:Notability. Note that much of this article is taken up by quotes from Armenian organisations denouncing the man. - Francis Tyers · 15:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Now that's not true. I included one (1) quote from the Armenian source. The rest of the quotes are from the man himself in an interview with Tall Armenian Tale, in no way an Armenian source. This is Samuel Weems in his own words. You can check it yourself, I properly referenced everything that I put into the article. As I said, we can put this up for an AfD or a merge, but it's simply not true to say that all or most of the article was taken from the Armenian source. -- Augustgrahl 15:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, my apologies. I would note however that none of his less negative (if we can call them that!) statements are included, such as the allegation (widely reported) that the French (et al.) recognition of the Am. Gen. was a political or religious stunt. Well, seeing as there are only two of us discussing this, how would you feel about a merge into Armenia: The Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State? - Francis Tyers · 16:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If anything, I think it would be more appropriate to merge the information about the book into his article, and redirect the book title to his page. It wouldn't make much sense to put his biography into that article when it's clearly longer, but I wouldn't have any problems with doing the opposite. Also, you could add in his quotes about France, but keep it limited, as his main point was to attack Armenia directly. -- Augustgrahl 17:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, the book is more notable than the man. The man is only (questionably) notable because he wrote the book (also of questionable notability). We don't actually have that much biographical information about him. - Francis Tyers · 17:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and merged it. - Francis Tyers · 17:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why are they now separate entries again? Meowy 20:40, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

removed text

Such remarks could be understood better in the context of animosity between Armenians and Turks over such issues as: Ottoman Armenian Terrorism and revolts (1894-1920), the Azerbaijani Genocide Azerbaijani Genocide of 1918-20 at the hands of Armenians, the alleged Armenian Genocide, often reffered to as the "Armenian Question" Armenian Question, international Armenian acts of terror (1973-1985), and the current occupation of the Rebublic of Azerbaijan's Karabakh region and seven others, resulting in the displacement of 1.2 million Azerbaijanis of Azeri and Kurdish origin.

How much is this true? deniz^T_C 10:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The comment doesn't seem entirely appropriate, as Samuel Weems was not of Turkish descent. In addition, language such as the "alleged Armenian Genocide" and "current occupation of the Republic of Azerbaijan's Karabakh region" is taking a definite partisan point of view. -- Augustgrahl 14:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted unjustif. tag deletetions by an IP.Andranikpasha (talk) 15:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rename of Category

Some of you may wish to participate in the discussion on renaming the category Armenian Genocide deniers to Armenian Genocide skeptics. The discussion is here. --Anthon.Eff (talk) 18:14, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More Information Please

I did a search for his name and just like the previous posters say, there are mostly turkish web sites about Samuel Weems and they say he is a judge. Can sometime track down some actual information about him? One of the references on the page points to a turkish website and now it is a dead link. The other 2 links, I'm not sure why they are there but they aren't about Samuel Weems. Could someone perhaps track down his son, family or friends? Vmelkon (talk) 00:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The sources given for Samuel Weems disbarment dubious

They don't work or are not a proof of his disbarment. Wikipedia should correct this coming weeks. We are probably dealing with another Armenian progaganda falsification.Chonanh (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

arson: http://leagle.com/decision/19741411516SW2d895_11389.xml/WEEMS%20v.%20ANDERSON disbarment: http://opinions.aoc.arkansas.gov/weblink8/0/doc/88478/Electronic.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.35.202.136 (talk) 05:32, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]