Talk:Samuel Mathews (colonial Virginia governor)

Article merge

The articles Samuel Mathews (Governor) and Samuel Matthews are duplicates dealing with the same subject, and should be merged. Although this is a 17th-century biography and spelling will vary in sources, the one-T spelling predominates and the merged article should go there. This is despite the fact that, IMO, the two-T article is far better written, even though it is only a stub.

I will take on this merge myself in the next few weeks, but I think it should be left open for comment for a bit first. Rklear (talk) 16:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Wow, I bumped into the two t article in 2008 when I was researching this area deeper, then forgot it by the time I ran across the 1 t version four years later and added a sentence there, but I sensed something was deja vu. And yes, since they are two articles about the same thing, they may be merged at any time. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:54, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I think a merge would be an okay idea for the time being, though I don't think the articles are redundant. The 'Samuel Matthews' article is about the original immigrant and this article is about his son, the colonial governor (Many reliable sources conclude that the son was the governor, and that seems to be the widely accepted conclusion). Both were notable enough to have their own page, IMO, and there are several good sources out there to draw from, among them:

• Genealogies of Virginia Families For the William & Mary College Quarterly Historical Magazine, Vol III, Gen Pub Co, Baltimore
• Meyers, Virginia M. and Dorman, John F. (1987). Adventurers of Purse and Person, Virginia. Order of First Families of Virginia

One factual error to be addressed on this page is that Thomas Mathews, the Speaker of the HoD, does not appear to be related to this family at all, nor the other notable Mathews family from Augusta County, Virginia.

Some suggest that the Mathews of Augusta are descendants of Samuel Mathews, though the reliability of those sources is suspect and other research suggests otherwise. I have addressed that issue to the best of my knowledge on the Mathews (Augusta) page. Newtack101 (talk) 17:47, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't see what you are saying; both articles as currently written seem to be about the younger Mathews who was Governor, and neither is specifically about the elder immigrant Mathews, who may or may not be notable (many of his contemporary peers still seem to lack articles, so if there is something particularly notable about him, we ought to consider converting one of these articles into an article about the father, otherwise merge. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

By the way I think the 1659 death for the younger Samuel who was then Governor is correct, not 1660 as in this article. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:07, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

It looks to me that the Samuel Matthews article has conflated both men into one, the senior, though much of the article is written about the life of the junior. It begins:

"Captain Samuel Matthews (died January 1659) was an English Colonial Governor of Virginia. Matthews came to Virginia Colony in 1622 and was chosen as governor by the House of Burgesses in 1656."

The father immigrated to Virginia around 1622 (I'd want to double-check that date to be sure). His son, born in 1630, became governor. I would have to do more research to see if there are other conflations. I certainly think that the information about Jr. that is ascribed here to Sr. should be merged. Some research should be done to make sure the two are sorted out though. The William and Mary article I listed above addresses this problem of conflation. The elder was involved in a few notable events, including a significant mutiny if I'm remembering correctly, and he was sent back to england for crimes against native americans, I think, though he returned to Virginia after the charges were dismissed. Newtack101 (talk) 18:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

And come to think of it, the month of his death was probably what we would now call January 1660, but until 1752, the New Year officially began on March 25 so it would have been recorded as January 1659. (Sometimes such dates are given as January 1659/60) Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:54, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. The two have been hard to sort out ever since they died. I've got a couple books and articles from way back that confuse them, and some recent sources still cite those. Adventures of Purse and Person is the best source I know of. Newtack101 (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed - I have my own copy on my bookshelf! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:28, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Please look at Tyler, Lyon Gardiner, ed. Encyclopedia of Virginia Biography. Volume 1. New York, Lewis Historical Publishing Company, 1915. OCLC 229136302. Retrieved February 16, 2013. pages 48 and 119. Here is what I get from this: Father of the governor was born in 1572. Governor was born about 1600 in England, came to Virginia in 1622. Had a son, probably about 1630, who died early, before 1670, perhaps as early as 1660. Confusingly, the third man is often referred to as Samuel Mathews, Jr. He was a soldier and member of the House of Burgesses but not governor. Single t is the predominant spelling for this family. January 1660 is given as death date for the governor; probably a calendar issue as noted. I changed it back but would defer to anyone who is sure. I think the two articles were meant to cover the governor but a few facts about his father or even his son appear to have gotten into both. Donner60 (talk) 04:24, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Article merge 2020

I think it would be best to rename this page to Samuel Mathews (Colonial Virginia governor), and use the main Samuel Mathews page as a disambig page for he, his son, and several other Samuel Mat(t)hews pages. I'll wait a few days for any objections. Thanks Newtack101 (talk) 21:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)