Talk:Same-sex marriage/Archive 31

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Cuba

The inclusion of Cuba as a 'notable country' should be decided here rather than by edit-warring. Is our source on the ideological influence of Cuba on China sufficient to indicate that it's notable as the first single-party state with SSM? But even if you see it as just one more of the many Latin countries that have legalized SSM (as I do), including it makes little difference. — kwami (talk) 04:40, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Maybe we can first agree on what makes a country 'notable' as a 'first-time' and then see if Cuba matches with these criteria. So far the list seems to include the following 'firsts':

1- Legal right criterion: We have 'first-times in the world' for rights earned by same-sex couples, such as marriage licences, civil unions and full marriage equality.

2- Geographical criterion: we have exhausted 'first-times' for continents. I suggest this criterion should no longer apply for other geographical categories as these are less clear-cut or well defined (eg. Caribbean) and would make this list overly trivial.

3- Political process criterion: we have 'first-times' for SSM approved by legislatures, referendum and court ruling.

Shall other criteria apply? And how can we choose them?

My take is a 'country' is 'notable as a first-time' when it has an impact or consequences in public discourse, either because (i) it sets a precedent for other countries (eg. Costa Rica, first country legalising SSM in obeyance of an international court ruling) or (ii) widens the definition of same-sex marriage as a global right across more categories of countries.

This is why I would expect to have new 'first-times' as the list of countries expands out of the Western-bloc of mostly European and American liberal (or electoral) democracies.

Imagine you are a journalist and need to explain why COUNTRY X makes the news, why legalising SSM in COUNTRY X is relevant for the rest of the world.

I'd definitely see other criteria, such as:

4 - Political criterion: 'first-times' that have an impact on global political discourse and force scholars of LGBT rights and political science to rethink some of their tenets. Example: a common theoretical assumption is that LGBT rights (and civil rights in general) have been expanding in the Western world as a consequence not of cultural peculiarities (the identitarian view) as much as material social and political conditions that allow the development of LGBT movements (eg. freedom of expression and speech, freedom of press, female participation in the workforce, rate of urban populations, etc.). So far it was common belief that democracy is a prerequisite for LGBT rights. Cuba is extremely notable in this sense, because it clearly defies this definition. It is not a liberal democracy, it is a one-party state with limited personal freedoms. I'll give you a few questions that make this country politically and theoretically problematic, hence notable: 1-is freedom of expression still a pre-requisite for LGBT rights or you just need a 'benevolent dictator'? 2-is the cultural factor more relevant as previously thought? (eg. as a Spanish-speaking country, Cuba is in the cultural space of Latin American and Spanish cultural products and media); 3- was the Cuban referendum free? or was it pinkwashing for an illiberal regime who is struggling for legitimacy and political appeasement with the United States and the EU? Some editors argued 'OK, then we should also list monarchies and other forms of governement'. Well, not really, because in political science and LGBT history no one has ever considered the possibility that there is a correlation between monarchies, republics and LGBT rights.. it would be very trivial to me if we started to make this distinction here. On the other hand, democracy was always a focus of theoretical analysis.

And then more tipping points will come one day..

5- Social/cultural criterion: we'll have one day a first 'muslim-majority' country to legalise SSM. Albania? Or the first Arabic-speaking country? (If sharing a language is a bond indeed and can pave the way for more countries to follow, an Arabic first would be notable because there are many countries speaking Arabic. Same applies for English, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Swahili, etc.).

6- Population criterion: We'll have China or India as the largest country in the world. And one day maybe we'll have 'cumulative tipping points' such as: first time a majority of UN member states has legalised same-sex marriage; first time 50% of the world population lives in countries with same-sex marriage.

BRIEF: A list of notable countries cannot just be trivia, but shall highlight countries that may be seen as notable milestones in the historical and social processes that have been driving the expansion of LGBT rights.

If other editors disagree with this, please provide rational arguments. Saying 'to me this is not relevant' cannot be accepted as an explanation. Thank you, ciao. Finedelledanze (talk) 08:47, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

First through court ruling

The page say there "Brazil: The first country to legalize same-sex marriage through court ruling (2013)". Shouldn't that be South Africa, according to Same-sex marriage in South Africa? Aréat (talk) 16:40, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it should. — kwami (talk) 06:06, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

is there actually conscensus for this?

Same-sex marriage has been defined in this article as that 'of two people of the same legal sex or gender.' Do most editors agree with this? That definition clearly does not match even the name of the article. Defining same-sex marriage as a simple legal procedure is a bit dehumanising to people in those unions. Legal gender is irrelevant because it first assumes same-sex marriage is solely a legal status, ignoring cultural and social contexts. The most objective definition should be only about sex. I believe we should change the current definition — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heikocvijic (talk • contribs) 19:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

The most objective definition should be only about sex: do you actually have any sources that support this statement? I get that some editors believe this, but as long as sources don't, their beliefs are pretty much irrelevant. As far as I know, essentially all the RS on this topic are concerned with legal sex and/or gender. Newimpartial (talk) 19:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

marriage is only a legal concept? If that's the case then this entire article is extremely flawed. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage Marriage is defined as an institution. https://www.britannica.com/topic/marriage 'The universality of marriage within different societies and cultures is attributed to the many basic social and personal functions for which it provides structure, such as sexual gratification and regulation, division of labour between the sexes, economic production and consumption, and satisfaction of personal needs for affection, status, and companionship.' Even the article marriage does not define it as always legal. Still, 'same-sex' is a pretty simple concept which the definition of this article does not encapsulate Heikocvijic (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the concept "same-sex" when applied to marriage has always applied to legal sex and/or gender. Please note that the term legal is relevant to sex, not to marriage - this is not an attempt to specify "same-sex legal marriage" but rather "marriage of persons of the same legal sex or gender". I hope this helps. Newimpartial (talk) 20:39, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I fully disagree with this. It is saying marriage is only a social institution if it applies to straight people. This is homophobic. It is also not true to assume that the term 'same-sex marriage' only applies to legal marriage since most coverage on it has been about the effort to make it legal, understandably. The words marriage and same-sex have definitions, and saying gay people can only experience the institution of marriage on a legal level does not add up to the definition of marriage. The article doesn't just talk about marriage as a legal institution either Heikocvijic (talk) 20:46, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

All of the coverage of SSM assumes legal recognition of the marriage. A gay couple shacking up is marriage in the social sense, but is not considered a SSM.

I have friends, an opposite-sex couple, who lived together. They considered themselves married. After ten years, they decided to make it official. They asked the county clerk to recognize their marriage, and he said he couldn't do that, because they weren't married. That is, to the clerk, the legal recognition, not the social institution, was the marriage. They then asked to speak to his supervisor, and he said, "sure, we'll recognition your marriage", and stamped the marriage certificate. Legally I don't know whether they were married or not before that point, but all the coverage of SSM assumes that they weren't.

At a national level, "marriage" means legal recognition of marriage. I don't know about societies that consider shacking up to be marriage and accept same-sex couples who shack up as married, but we speak of countries legalizing SSM, and afaik that always means legal recognition of the marriage. — kwami (talk) 20:48, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

then if the article is only about legalisation of same-sex marriage, then the title is incorrect. The article is not only about that, and the sections about it are in the article (e.g. the table of countries and territories that have legalised it). The article is not about marriage only as a legal institution Heikocvijic (talk) 20:51, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but do RS's ever speak of a same-sex couple shacking up in the 1950s as "married"? We need to follow RS's. — kwami (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I have already stated my position. The definition of SSM in this article is fully a legal one, implying the concept of marriage for gay people is only a mere legal status. That does not match with the definition of marriage, hence with the name of the ssm article. If this article will only care about the legal aspect fine, but it does not. I respect your positions but I disagree with them Heikocvijic (talk) 21:01, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

A compound word may mean something other than the sum of its parts. If the 'same sex' part of SSM doesn't mean same sex, then the 'marriage' part doesn't need to mean marriage. SSM is a term for a specific cultural and political phenomenon. If you have sources which use the term for something more, then great, we can expand the article to include them. — kwami (talk) 23:25, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

It is saying marriage is only a social institution if it applies to straight people. This is homophobic. What? You are replying to my comment, but neither I nor anyone else in this discussion has said anything like this.

It is also not true to assume that the term 'same-sex marriage' only applies to legal marriage since most coverage on it has been about the effort to make it legal, understandably. The words marriage and same-sex have definitions - I don't see the relevance of any of this to the current discussion, except the point at the end that "same-sex" has a definition. It does, and on the topic of this article, that definition is "of the same legal sex or gender". Nobody in this discussion has put forward any evidence to the contrary. Newimpartial (talk) 21:09, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

A marriage needs to become official, and we can't call it a marriage without that. That's why the legal aspect of a marriage is so important. I hope you agree with this at least. Aminabzz (talk) 10:19, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, @Newimpartial clearly stated that here, the term legal is relevant to sex and not to marriage. But you again insisted on the term "legal marriage". Aminabzz (talk) 10:22, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Maybe talk to more LGBT people? :) I don't want to get too involved but for what it's worth, I *am* in a SSM and it's very much about the legal status and implications for us and a lot of other people in SSM we know, especially those surrounding next of kin status, the legal status of a surviving partner and (though not in our case) that of children. While we enjoyed celebrating the event with friends, we didn't do it to somehow announce it (everyone who needed to know already did...) or because it changed how we felt about each other, we don't need a registrar who doesn't know us for that. If you look at the history of SSM and its precursors, it always was to a largel extent about the terrible positions the lack of a legal status put LGBT couples in when running up against anything where you need to prove this relationship is formal, not just casual. So no, I'm not offended by the legalistic aspects in the description. Akerbeltz (talk) 20:50, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Hey Akerbeltz. You may be trying to keep out of it, but I'd appreciate your thoughts on the thread above. We're just going around in circles. What is SSM -- is it only based on legally recognized sex or gender, or does gender identity play a role? If the latter, then our history section is wrong; if the former, our def needs to be clear about that and have a RS to back it up. — kwami (talk) 09:21, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't actually get it why there is this furious debate above. To me, certainly in practice, SSM is about what it says in your legal documents (birth cert, passport, whatever) and your prospective spouse's and whether the combination of the two entitles you to (religious or civil) marriage and the entailed legal consequences. The sex stated in your documents may or may not coincide with your gender identity but I have never seen or heard of marriage paperwork that asks you what your gender identity is, it's all about what your legal sex is (whether that's the one you were born with or - where that is possible - what you changed it to) and whether the combination thereof in- or excludes you from marriage with your chosen partner.

As it's biology, which isn't as binary as humans sometimes think it is or would like it to be, I'm sure there is a grey area where you get combinations of partners which seem to defy the mixed-sex model of marriage, but I don't see what that should prevent the core definition of SSM being about people of the same legal sex being allowed to marry. It's in a way the same as other legal entitlements that are gender-based, take retirement age (in places where that is still different depending on your legal sex), which is also based on your legal sex, not your gender identity though of course you can change that - legally - since the gender recognition act. But again that's about the legal sex in your paperwork, irrespective of whether you identify with that or not.

Whether it should be based on gender identity is a different debate altogether to my mind. Not sure if that helps? Akerbeltz (talk) 17:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

PS the bit of the debate about whether the historic semantics of the word marriage mean it cannot be used for SSM, that's absurd. Sure, people who like language often study the derivation of words but every living language is replete with words which have shifted meanings, some over a long time, some abruptly. Not ever hoover is a Hoover and not every kleenex is a Kleenex but hey, genericization will do its thing. A deer used to be any animal, not just a cervid. Does that mean you can prosecute someone for shooting a duck and claim they shot a deer because a deer originally was any animal? Of course not. So whatever 'marriage' meant 200 years ago or 2000 years ago, the fact is that people use it in the term SSM to refer to two people of the same legal sex getting married. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:24, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, our sources covering which countries have SSM, and the history of SSM, use your definition or at least something close to it. If we consistently used that definition, there would be no problem.

(We could have a section on non-recognized SSM if we had sources to demonstrate its notability. My working def of 'marriage' is 'people in a sexual or romantic relationship move in together to form a family'. Move in together, you're married; move out, you're divorced. That is, same-sex couples have been getting married for forever, it's just usually been under the table. Everything else is social/legal recognition for communities that are too large for everyone to know everyone's business.)

But we have RS's with contrary definitions -- biological sex, social gender, and gender identity. By those definitions, Italy has SSM today and the US had SSM in 1850.

Do you think "legal sex" is adequate? Do we need to add "legal gender"? — kwami (talk) 02:18, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Just a note that this article's content must, as with all other WP articles, be based on what the reliable sources on the topic actually say, and not on OR definitions and SYNTH observations made by editors. Just a reminder. Newimpartial (talk) 03:35, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

You mean like the OR that you insisted on making yourself, against the very source you used for it? — kwami (talk) 05:28, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Re marriage' is 'people in a sexual or romantic relationship move in together to form a family I'm not sure I would concur with that, however, there's often a difference between the legal definition of a thing, common interpretations and individual interpretations. Take foraging, which is legal but what type of foraging is actually legal is quite a house of cards ... you can legally forage for private use and on private land, the land owner can't stop you but if you're doing it without their permission, they can kick you off their land and confiscate your blackberries. You can forage dandelion leaves but you're actually breaking the law if you're digging up dandelion roots because it's illegal to dig up 'wild plants' (however common). And so on. In contrast, most people have a much more simplistic interpretation of the right to forage - which is often legally wrong. And on a personal level, I think it's morally wrong to let apples (cultivated plants are excluded from foraging rights) rot on the ground even when on private land so my foraging is sometimes ... well anyway :) In many circumstances, these interpretations live happily side by side even though they're legally in conflict. But the bottom line is usually when two people disagree about something - whether that's about the apple someone just picked off the ground or in cases of, say, separation and the ensuing arguments over who gets what. At that point the only thing that counts is the letter of the law. And if that has no concept of unmarried cohabitation and does not bestow any rights on cohabitees (even ignoring the question of gender), then you may have considered yourself married for the last 50 years, but in the eyes of the law you're unmarried and can't take half the house and half the cat.

Personally I think the old lede was fine and should stay as it was, but we could by all means have a section (with pretty refs of course) about cases in the grey area where in the absence of a legal framework for SSM there were (isolated) cases of de-facto SSM. My brother's cat may know how to 'fetch', doesn't mean cats in general do fetching :) Akerbeltz (talk) 09:49, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Well sure, what the law recognizes may be different. But for most people and for most of human history, 'marriage' was simply moving in together. It still does mean that in much of the world, just not in modern law-based societies.

I don't know about any grey areas for SSM, I was just trying to provide for what to do if it turns out that Heikocvijic above has a point.

The problem with the current def in the lead is that we just say 'gender'. If a reader isn't sure what that means, they might read our 'gender' article. If they apply that definition to this article, they'll notice that the USA had SSM in 1850, contrary to our claim that the Netherlands was first in 2001 (as supported by all our sources), and that Italy has SSM today, contrary to our country list (and again all our sources). Therefor, it's obvious that we don't mean what we say. That's unprofessional: in an encyclopedia, we should say what we mean and mean what we say.

Similarly, we just say 'sex'. If the reader double checks with our 'sex' article, they'll find that 'sex' means biological sex. That means that the USA had SSM as soon as it developed sex-reassignment surgery or other methods of changing one's legal sex, and again that there's SSM in Italy today. Regardless of any RS definitions to the contrary, the sources used by this article assume a definition of legal sex and/or legal gender.

The easy solution is to say 'legal sex and legal gender' in the lead, and remove the wording that I added that by SSM, a section of this article assumes marriage between two people of the same legal sex. The more cumbersome solution would be to change the leads of the sex and gender articles to say, in SSM, 'sex'/'gender' mean legally recognized sex and gender, not what we mean by sex/gender in this article. — kwami (talk) 20:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Another option - to which editors often seem strangely resistant - is simply not to have wikilinks that might mislead the reader. Newimpartial (talk) 23:36, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

That would help, but of course any reader who wasn't sure exactly what we meant, or who had an understanding that seemed to be at odds with ours, might still look up those articles, which would then contradict this article. I just changed the links in 'sex or gender' to legal gender (which also has a rd from 'legal sex'). If that sticks, I think it should resolve my concerns. — kwami (talk) 06:28, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

But for most people and for most of human history, 'marriage' was simply moving in together. It still does mean that in much of the world did/does it? I have family in quite a lot of places and in some, the time when marriage did not come with an official document is within living memory but that never meant 'just moving in'. In fact, 'just moving in' would have constituted a scandal up until not too long ago, there was always some social procedure that had to be followed unless you wanted to risk being cast out. But I strongly concur with the position that if 'gender' is taken to mean 'the gender someone identfies as, whether it matches the biology or not' and if 'sex' means 'the (usually binary) choice of M or F made on official documents' then 'gender' has no place in the lede. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:03, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I've lived in places where that's the only kind of marriage there is. Set up house together and you're married. It would only be a scandal if others thought the relationship was inappropriate -- like if you were siblings or already married to someone else, both of which happen from time to time. Not a scandal but an object of humor if the woman's twice the age of the man. I've never heard of a SSM, and that would be quite the scandal, but presumably ppl would still accept that they were married.

Before we had laws and govts, the whole world was like that, though in some places there might've been ceremonies involved. Even in the US I've had friends who set up house together and considered themselves married (for a decade) and only eventually filed it with the county clerk because of the legal benefits of doing so. — kwami (talk) 00:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

The maps

In the first two maps of the article, some countries are gray-colored in both. That means the same-sex marriage is both legalized and criminalized in those countries. How is that possible? Aminabzz (talk) 10:25, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't know why you'd think that. — kwami (talk) 16:13, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Aruba and Curacao

Commenting here since they've been added a couple times:

AFAICT, this court ruling may be appealed. Indications are that Aruba won't appeal, but for us that's CRYSTAL. Also, not clear if it's enforceable on St. Maartin. So SSM may be legalized as early as March 07. Not something we can put in the table yet, unless I've misunderstood something.

But yes, when added, they should have their country flags.

@Rex30: — kwami (talk) 18:51, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 November 2022

The edit or change I suggest is that when searching for this topic, the question it answered is: What is the marriage of two people of the same sex called?

The answer is this article saying that it's called same sex marriage or gay marriage.

I submit this is patently false and continues a legacy of discrimination or what Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg called "skim milk marriage".

The answer to what is a marriage of two same gender people called is simply: MARRIAGE.

Calling the marriage of people of the same gender same sex or GAY marriage perpetuates stigma and different or lesser significance.

I further submit that your terms are widely used, and I saw you noted preferred use of marriage equality. Therefore, if the answer is MARRIAGE as I suggest, it's ok to say the terms gay marriage or same sex marriage were previously used. If you wish to include the modern historical context, you could add something like during the worldwide struggle fir marriage equality, proponents and opponents, as well as media, often used the terms same sex or gay marriage as the issue was on ballots or legislation in states, cities, counties, provinces and countries. However, in addition to diminishing gay couples, it's redundant! It's like saying "HE is a MALE model" or "SHE is a FEMALE doctor" -- as saying that two people of the same gender are GAY or SAME SEX married, Bob and Bill are MARRIED.

The last example is that I checked 6 jurisdictions where gay couples may marry, Sweden, United Kingdom, Cuba, Canada, Mexico and USA, NONE of them issue licences to marry called "SAME SEX Marriage Licence" nor do they have "APPLICATION for SAME SEX Marriage". Instead, there's just applications for marriage and Marriage Licences.

While I didn't survey the dozens of countries which provide equal marriage for gay couples, they are a representative sample of populous and sparsely populated, in both traditionally liberal and conservative nations, and countries which are traditionally deferrent to the Papacy, those with official state religion, and officially secular governments and/or societies.

While the change I'm requesting is small, I hope that the more lengthy context helps illuminate the issue, and it's significance not just legally, grammatically, but also socially to fairly and accurately describe a group who have faced discrimination for centuries and longer in some societies, and hard fought equality is diminished by continued marginalization, including different and redundant terms. 2600:8805:C503:A700:79F8:967C:87E5:32FE (talk) 15:32, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done according to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RGW. You're still free to try Wikipedia:Requested moves. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:51, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree that if you're "same-sex married", that isn't marriage equality. But we can't call this article just "marriage", because that article is about marriage in all its variation. It does cover same-sex marriage, of course, but there's more detail we should cover than can fit there. — kwami (talk) 18:30, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

I personally do not like anything but calling it "married," but a Wikipedia article on same-sex marriage should be about states and territories that allow two men or two women as married. In this regard, it is not like the example of a male model or a female doctor, but more like the lists 9f political firsts, of which there are that have to modify the noun with reference to sex, gender, etc: the first female Prime Minister of the UK was Margaret Thatcher. The first female speaker of the house in the United States is Nancy Pelosi. The first female president of Brazil was Dilma Roussef. These job titles do not address sex, but for the sake of clarity and significance these three women are listed using the terms female Prime Minister female speaker, and female president. Though it w I uld be improper to address than as anything but their job titles. Furthermore there are pages dedicated to first female heads of state and government, first women office holders. Even pages dedicated to the first lgbt governor or first lgbt prime ministers are on Wikipedia and though no one addresses Xavier Bettel as Mr. Gay Prime Minister. Andrew1444 (talk) 21:32, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

List of elected and appointed female heads of state and government. Just a descriptive phrase. — kwami (talk) 22:24, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Also, in Ecuador, Taiwan and a dozen Mexican states, married for SS couples isn't quite the same as "married". — kwami (talk) 18:54, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

This is such a non-issue. In language, there's something called context and that means that we don't always use the same words to talk about something. Sure, when I refer to myself, I'm just married, not "I'm same-sex married" or something. But talking to someone else in a different country, I may well ask if they have SSM. This page specifically deals with a sub-group of marriages and calling it SSM is both accurate and inoffensive - it's simply descriptive. And incidentally, we also have pages like interracial marriage. If anything, I feel that calling it anything but SSM would be doing a disservice to all those who had to fight hard to get it in the first place and those who are still fighting to get it. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:03, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Mexico

The bill in Guerrero was never published and so has been sent back to the legislature. So SSM has been passed, but AFAIK we can no longer say it's pending. I imagine it will go through sometime in 2023, though that's CRYSTAL. Note that Guerrero is the only state in Mexico with no amparos, presumably because SSM has been available at the municipal level. — kwami (talk) 00:08, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, North Macedonia, Serbia

Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, North Macedonia and Serbia provide residency rights for the foreign spouses of EU citizens. Free movement directive apply to all EU member states and all candidate countries excluding Turkey. https://www.rklambda.at/index.php/de/rechtsvergleich#SCHWEDEN, https://www.rklambda.at/index.php/de/rechtsvergleich#partner — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.48.31.34 (talk) 09:17, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't see where it says that. — kwami (talk) 02:02, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Poland has recognized same-sex partnerships.

Sąd orzekł (), że związek osób tej samej płci to nawet nie "konkubinat", ale "związek partnerski". Zawiązek partnerski ma te same prawa co konkubinat. Jest nieformalny. Coś podobnego do Łotwy.

Same-sex spouses also have access to residency rights under EU law. Other colors on the map (two: Civil union or partnership, and Limited foreign recognition (residency rights)) plus a table.

Poland recognizes all marriages contracted abroad (January 1, 2012) (Act) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.48.31.34 (talk) 10:34, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Are you requsting an edit? — kwami (talk) 02:36, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Add Slovenia to notable countries

I'd like to request an edit: adding Slovenia to the list of notable countries as a first Slavic country with same-sex marriage.

Most Slavic countries are conservative, as of 2023 only three of them recognise civil partnerships for same-sex couples. Therefore I think that Slovenian law is an achievement worth mentionig. 2A02:A310:833A:D700:6C52:107D:37E5:E527 (talk) 20:22, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

How is that notable? Should Malta be listed as the first Semitic country and South Africa the first Bantu country? Few of either have SSM. — kwami (talk) 04:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I have no horse in this race but that section is a bit vague in general i.e. it's not obvious what the criteria here are for notability. First ever, clearly, first by continent, ok, but the US being in there is a bit harder to define in terms of how that is more or less notable that, say, Slovenia as the first country in a significant ethnocultural grouping. Akerbeltz (talk) 08:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

There are no clear criteria. I don't know how much the US being first affected things, whether that's important or trivia. I don't see that Mexico or Cuba are particularly notable though. — kwami (talk) 01:06, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I provided reasons why I think Slovenia should be mentioned and I still request that edit.

Regarding the above examples of Malta and South Africa, there's a case for every country to be listed or delisted. Why Cuba is mentioned as a first one-party state, but there are no first monarchies/presidential republics/parliamentary republics? Why not list Andorra as a first micro state? Why not distinguish religious traditions of a country? And so on.

Pehaps it is a good idea to clearly state what can make a given country notable or remove this section alltogether. 2A02:A310:833A:D700:79CF:4084:1D26:773E (talk) 08:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree. This all feel like a stretch, and not really useful at that. I believe we should just delete it altogether.--Aréat (talk) 11:26, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Anything particularly significant, which perhaps a few different reliable sources take note of, should be incorporated in prose into either the very poor History section here, or the similarly poor History of same-sex unions. CMD (talk) 12:01, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Poland in the lead

Some countries, such as Russia, China, Hungary and Poland, banned the propagation of LGBT ideology in public. Nothing has been banned in Poland; there is a heavy anti-LGBT propaganda coming from the government, but no law has been effectively introduced. BasileusAutokratorPL (talk) 21:52, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I removed Hungary and Poland.KlayCax (talk) 19:41, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Life Partnerships in Croatia

Since there was an effort to recognize the recent "Free Union" court ruling in Bolivia in the "Same-Sex Marriage Around The World" section. I think maybe the page can also take notice of countries like Croatia and Liechtenstein to be added, as a joint-adoption law comes into effect in June for Liechtenstein and a recent court ruling in Croatia legalizing joint adoption has rendered same-sex couples there virtually equal in all aspects except for the name of marriage. SunnyWinx (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

What were you thinking exactly? We might indeed want to list countries where you have marriage in all but name, but we'd want a RS that that's actually the case. I've seen that claim for Italy, but Italy does not have adoption. But then neither does Ecuador, which we list as having SSM. — kwami (talk) 23:59, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

edit request for timeline

can someone add the Saint Regis Mohawk Tribe, 21st December 2022 to the timeline ... thank you ... 155.245.69.178 (talk) 08:48, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Is that when it happened? That's the latest law, but looks like SSM was available before. — kwami (talk) 10:30, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Nepal

Could be a big deal, but IMO too early to tell what the consequences of the SC ruling will be. I changed the maps from lavender to purple, but think it might be premature to color Nepal blue. If anyone knows anything, please share! — kwami (talk) 05:26, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

It sounds massive indeed! The sources listed in the Nepal page remind me of some decisions of inconstitutionality taken by the Mexican SC with respect to state civil codes. These were binding but it could take months or years before the state legislatures reacted to the ruling and reformed the marriage laws. Why color Nepal in purple on the map? Is the ruling immediately recognising foreign SSMs? I'd see the dark green as fitter: binding court decision that mandates parliament to legislate on SSM, but no legalisation nor provision of marriage yet. PS Estonia and Latvia should be dark blue like Bolivia (unions can be registered through court action). Finedelledanze (talk) 15:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@Finedelledanze: Green may indeed be better for Nepal. Anyone else think so?

Estonia does not have CU's. The law was passed but never enacted.

The med blue should not be for registration through court action, but for accessible CU's as in Italy. If you need to go to court, that is only minimal rights and should be light blue. If that's where Bolivia is after the recent court ruling there, then it's Bolivia that should be changed.

— kwami (talk) 23:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

On Nepal it would be helpful to find more sources in English or also in Nepali from a third party: the only one is apparently from an LGBT NGO advocating for civil rights. It remains unclear whether the ruling is mandating the government to legalise same-sex marriage or simply compels it to recognise foreign same-sex marriages for immigration purposes (spousal visas).

On Estonia, Bolivia and Latvia: well, it's complicated. Estonia has a registered partnership law in force, which clearly enumerates rights and obligations of same-sex couples. What is lacking is the implementation acts, namely the instructions for state officials and clerks to perform and register such unions. This is why the courts stepped in and allowed the couples to register their unions in the population registry so that they could enjoy these rights. The process is windy, but unions are effectively in place and are valid within the EU and towards third parties.

In Bolivia 'free unions' already existed for opposite-sex couples (Law 603 of 2014) and the Surpreme Court simply extended acccess to same-sex couples. Absent a law, registration for same-sex couples may be longer, but we can say that unions are available and provide similar rights as marriage.

Latvia is more problematic: unions can be registered after court action, but what rights are provided is not clearly set out, because there are no civil unions for opposite-sex couples. From a legal point of view, though, the Latvian ruling equates these unions with opposite-sex marriage. Our Latvian article reports some parts of the ruling, which clearly points to the marriage rights (Article 110) defined by the Latvian constitution as a reference: "Article 110 The State shall protect and support marriage – a union between a man and a woman, the family, the rights of parents and rights of the child.". Consequently, as long as the Latvian parliament does not pass a civil union law, Latvian same-sex couples can register their unions (with a process similar to Estonia's) and shall enjoy the same rights as married couples.

The fact that registration of unions is available, however windy and uneasy it is, and that these registrations provide rights that are actually enjoyed and enforceable towards third parties, tilts me in favour of treating all these countries like any other country where the law allows for registered unions (dark blue). Finedelledanze (talk) 09:14, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

We've gone back and forth on these several times, practically each time someone new comes in with an opinion. So I'd like to see some sort of consensus for these, and for Israel as well.

(I assume you mean medium blue.) — kwami (talk) 10:33, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

(Yes, medium blue, 'civil unions blue', apologies!)

BTW, both Estonia and Latvia are listed as having legalised same-sex unions in the sidebar, their national pages and the European section. So, I guess there is a consensus (there actually was a discussion on Latvia quite recently - I initially erred on the cautious side against Latvia legalisation, but then I've changed my mind as the Latvia article was enriched with more details).

On Israel: my understanding is that the country has been recognising same-sex (and civil opposite-sex) marriages performed abroad. However, I see that these marriages only confer a limited set of rights, but I haven't found a clear explanation on the differences with domestic marriages. I won't go off topic any further. Best, ciao. Finedelledanze (talk) 16:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2023

Request on updating the public opinion for Venezuela: 55% support; 32% oppose; 13% neither. Source: https://cronica.uno/encuesta-refleja-que-mayoria-de-venezolanos-apoya-igualdad-de-derechos-para-la-poblacion-lgbtiq/ 188.253.239.12 (talk) 19:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Done. Also good for adoption support. — kwami (talk) 01:12, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Israel

Okay, on Mar 07, the SC ruled that the state must recognize marriages performed remotely by video (in Utah). But does "recognize" mean that they are legally married, or only that their names are entered into the registry, but without gaining full rights? That is, should we leave the color on the map as-is, or change it to dark purple? — kwami (talk) 02:11, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

What is "legally married?" If you are registered by the state as married then you are just that no? That registration as married is then what the couples use when applying for the services/rights that opposite-sex married couples also have, like surrogacy, national insurance etc. When they get divorced they get divorced through the family court and that court then changes the registration from married to single. As civil marriage doesn't exist as a legal concept in Israel its hard to do these types of international comparisons. Had the Israeli state not recognized same-sex marriages performed abroad (like in the other countries colored light purple) then these couples would be registered as "single" and would have hard time applying for gov services etc. So the "registration" does have more than just symbolic value, and now when same-sex parenthood through surrogacy has been legalized even more so, not sure how legal parenthood works in these situations however. With marriages taking place in Israel but officiated through zoom now also recognized its kinda weird to put Israel in the same category as Romania and the other light purple countries who do not recognize, except for immigration according with EU directives. Its complicated and its hard finding english sources that are up do date, I think Israel should be in a category of its own or in the dark purple on, because its clear that same-sex marriage carry much more symbolic and legal recognition there (especially de-facto) then the other light purple countries, 2A02:AA1:162D:C45E:74F9:5378:B54:D19B (talk) 17:43, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

change "same-sex" to gay

Same-sex is used against transgender people by terfs. They use it to say they are only attracted to sex and therefore not a transgender person of the same gender. There is many different karyotyp, therefore this term also sounds like you only like the same karyotype. 2A05:F6C6:8814:0:79ED:8F0A:307C:FEB4 (talk) 17:02, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

The current terminology reflects legal realities. Russia does not fail to recognise all gay marriage. For example, if a trans woman and a cis woman were to apply, the Russian government would certify their marriage. Because the marriage is heterosexual, the Russian government recognises it despite it also being gay. Were your suggestion to be implemented, the article would become misleading in this regard. 157.181.129.138 (talk) 09:24, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2023

Add link to the page for Michael McConnell and Jack Baker as context for the first country where a local jurisdiction knowingly issued a marriage license to a same-sex couple

Change "American country" to "Country in the Americas".

More precisely, under Same-sex marriage around the world change:

Notable countries:

• United States: The first country where a local jurisdiction knowingly issued a marriage license to a same-sex couple (1971)
• Denmark: The first country to offer civil unions (1989)
• Netherlands: The first country to legalize same-sex marriage, and the first European one (2001)
• Canada: The first American country to legalize same-sex marriage (2005)

to:

Notable countries:

• United States: The first country where a local jurisdiction knowingly issued a marriage license to a same-sex couple (1971)
• Denmark: The first country to offer civil unions (1989)
• Netherlands: The first country to legalize same-sex marriage, and the first European one (2001)
• Canada: The first country in the Americas to legalize same-sex marriage (2005) Tsattolo (talk) 18:15, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Tollens (talk) 18:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Taiwan full marriage equality

Same-sex couples can now adopt https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/asia/taiwan-same-sex-adoption-marriage-equality-lgbtq-intl-hnk/index.htmlFinedelledanze (talk) 14:32, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Namibia

Seems like the country is now recognising same-sex marriage performed abroad. Any other sources? https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230516-namibia-recognises-same-sex-marriages-concluded-abroad-with-foreign-spouse — Preceding unsigned comment added by Finedelledanze (talk • contribs) 14:05, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

If so, I think it should be deep purple in the map under 'Same sex marriage around the world' Finedelledanze (talk) 13:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

That would be if they were accepted equally as marriage , but that's doubtful. More likely they recognize the bare minimum, e.g. for immigration or whatever else the court orders. I'd like to see a RS that Namibia has actual marriage equality before coloring it that way. — kwami (talk) 22:23, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

From the media it seems like it should be full recognition (unlike Nepal, where the binding disposition is only about spousal visas + non-binding ruling on legalising SSM domestically). But good point, I agree that we should wait for some transcription of foreign certificates into the Namibian marriage registry (or Gov't declarations of compliance with the ruling) before we can be sure about full recognition. Finedelledanze (talk) 07:42, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Several new polls for marriage equality and other LGBT positions in various countries

https://twitter.com/sssirda/status/1663128122005266432 https://twitter.com/JsmeFer/status/1663158376526761984 SunnyWinx (talk) 20:51, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

The prompt for the survey is rather ambiguous though so I don't know if it would be worth it to add to public opinion. SunnyWinx (talk) 20:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Iran (symbolic wedding, and not marriage)

Here is the story:

Source: https://iranwire.com/en/society/104840-the-story-of-bijan-saffari-and-irans-first-gay-marriage/

Acording to a report by Radio Rangin Kaman, Bijan Saffari and his boyfriend of many years Sohrab Mahvi, decided to mark their relationship to date in the form of a wedding ceremony. Strictly speaking it was, of course, impossible for their marriage to be registered officially. But the two lovers were determined to make the ceremony as close to a traditional wedding as possible, and for them and their relationship, it would mean the same thing. So they invited a clergyman to perform the rites. News of the wedding made headlines, to the chagrin of some of those not invited, and groups opposed to the establishment in Iran at the time. Mojahed, the official organ of the People’s Mojahedin Organization [MEK], declared a wedding held by two gay men symbolized “the height of corruption” of Pahlavi regime. In the tense political atmosphere before the revolution, attacks over the wedding, especially on Bijan Saffari’s father, reached such a peak that the newlyweds, who had traveled abroad for their honeymoon, never returned to Iran. Cyanmax (talk) 03:40, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

edit request for timeline

can someone please add the Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi to the timeline (16 March 2023) 155.245.69.178 (talk) 12:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Estonia

From 1 January 2024 2001:7D0:8409:A580:9889:773B:6C4:9267 (talk) 09:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Notable countries

Can we just discard this "Notable countries" entirely ? It's leading to constant edit wars, it's grounded on no sources, and it's hardly informative at all considering there already are dated lists and tables on the page. Aréat (talk) 07:43, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I concur. Cyanmax (talk) 12:46, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Absolutly, please ! Martin m159 (talk) 13:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Scrap it entirely. "Notable" is a term that you can't really define, and that's up to the reader to decide which countries are notable.

Minecraft69 (talk) 15:01, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Should we list formal legalization in states where SSM is already de facto legal?

On a related note, someone asked me to add another US Tribe to the timeline. Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi (16th March 2023). They published a marriage code that explicitly provides for SSM. But it appears that previously they didn't have a marriage code, which means marriage operated under state law, which means SSM was already legal. So should we list them in the timeline? Does 'legalization' count if SSM was already legal? Do we want to show explicit recognition? How many other Tribes that we do list are equivalent situations? — kwami (talk) 19:15, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

SSM in Nepal

I found the interim order in the news. After decoding and translating it, I think Nepal does not recognize same-sex marriage yet, but just residence rights for couples married abroad. --DaddyCell (talk) 11:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

You found the wrong interim order. That's old news. Usedtobecool ☎️ 13:29, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Nepal rejects SSM

[1] It appears we may have gotten a little excited. Same-sex couples still can't get married in Nepal it seems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minecraft69 (talk • contribs) 14:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Typo?

"The first same-sex couple to be married legally in modern times were Michael McConnell and Jack Baker in 1971, in Hennepin County, Minnesota."

I don't think "1971" is the correct year, it doesn't fit with the timeline discussed in the surrounding text. The caption under the figure next to it says "2015". 212.120.117.102 (talk) 22:38, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Read the source. — kwami (talk) 18:48, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Nepal II

Is SSM actually legal now in Nepal? The SC requires the govt to "register" SSM. However, the Dutch Caribbean countries have to register Dutch SSM, but we don't count them as SSM states. Several Eastern European countries also register SSM for e.g. immigration purposes, but don't have marriage equality.

Also, will the govt actually comply? "The Supreme Court has given the opponents of same-sex marriage 15 days to provide a written reply on the matter."[2]

I think it might be too early to state that Nepal has SSM. — kwami (talk) 07:17, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Also, some sources say "separate" and "temporary" registration. What does that even mean? It's also shocking to me that a single person can decide the fate of an entire country. We should have waited but everyone is so excited like last time with Taiwan. Cyanmax (talk) 12:46, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

He did not decide the fate of the country. He interpreted the constitution where he was asked to as is his job. If you did not want SSM, you had the opportunity to explicitly say so in the draft constitution and convince 2/3rd of parliament. Now that SC has said SSM should be legal, you still have the chance to undo it by amending the constitution if you can gather the 2/3rd majority. Short of that, the government has no recourse now but to comply. They can dilly dally with it but not for long. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems like marriage equality to me. According to Himalayan Times's news article, "They will have the same rights as heterosexual marriage couples. Parliament may take a while to pass the marriage equality law, but this order gives a very practical solution to members of sexual and gender minority communities who wish to register their marriage legally.". It appears that the court has given a temporary measure to provide a legal basis for same-sex marriage until the Parliament establishes the law. (But I'm not sure if there is a possibility that the Nepalese government would or could choose to establish the law based on civil unions.)

And there is a passage saying "More than 15 years ago, the Supreme Court issued directive order to amend or scrap all discriminatory laws and to pass same-sex marriage law based upon a report from a study committee The committee submitted a report 8 years ago recommending full marriage.". Therefore, the Court Judgment was established 15 years ago, but the government has chosen to ignore or delay its implementation.

Still, it would be best if someone knows the situations in Nepal could confirm its legal status.--渡鴉之王 (talk) 13:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

See Blue Diamond Society Instragram page, whose president was one of the applicants in the court case. 2804:7F0:BCC1:1171:1C74:A0B3:7860:2208 (talk) 14:22, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

"The Supreme Court issued the order on Wednesday allowing for the TEMPORARY registration of marriages for same-sex couples."

"The court also ordered the government to establish a SEPARATE register of marriages for same-sex couples."

What does "temporary" and "separate" mean?

Sources:

1. https://thediplomat.com/2023/06/in-first-nepals-supreme-court-allows-registration-of-same-sex-marriages/

2. https://apnews.com/article/nepal-lgbtq-samesex-marriage-supreme-court-1bc6d1ee2eecf83f7707915bdd7579e7 Cyanmax (talk) 16:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I believe "temporary" means this is an injunction that will be in force until the govt passes the appropriate laws. Then those laws will take over and the injunction will no longer apply.

I don't know about "separate". Perhaps it's so the couples can be kept track of until the law is passed, so that they're made properly legal when it is, or so that they can prove that they're legally married until it is. We really need a RS to interpret this for us so we don't engage in OR and get it wrong. Gurung and Pant in the Himalayan article seem confident that SSM is now legal. Is this sufficient RS? One says, "now we can easily tackle all the complications on our own with the help of our partner," and the other, "the SC interim order states that the petitioner can easily get married as soon as the court reopens after tomorrow's public holiday." I suppose this will resolve itself in a few days -- either we'll start getting news reports that couples are getting married or, at the least, we'll have silence, which probably would mean that they can't. — kwami (talk) 19:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

New RS: https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/06/30/nepal-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage/ Cyanmax (talk) 15:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

"A significant step towards marriage equality ... While same-sex marriage is still not yet fully legal in Nepal ... Parliament may take a while to pass the marriage equality law, but this order gives a practical solution to members of the sexual and gender minority communities who wish to register their marriage legally. ... If Nepal fully legalises same-sex marriage, it will become the second country in Asia to do so."

So I'm still not sure what to do. It sounds like SSM is now de facto legal. Is this equivalent to CUs in those countries where a CU provides all the rights of marriage? Should we make Nepal light blue on the map? On the other hand, it sounds like several Mexican states, after they started issuing marriage certificates because of a court or gubernatorial order but before they updated the law. We continue to color those states dark blue despite SSM not being fully legal. — kwami (talk) 20:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

[3] The Supreme Court has been considering a petition on the issue filed by gay right activists and on Wednesday it issued an interim order allowing for same-sex couples to register their marriages pending a final verdict. ... [video: This arrangement stands until a final verdict is delivered by the court.] ... Since [2007], some same-sex couples have held unofficial weddings. ... Maya Gurung ... said that being able to officially register a marriage would help overcome a range of difficulties. "We will now approach the authorities to formally register our marriage. ... It may take some time for this, though.” — kwami (talk) 01:59, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It's probably a literal register that will have to be literally separate. The register for SSM will need more fields. For one, in Nepal, all sexual minorities legally have the option of only one non-traditional category "third gender". So, this new register, I assume, will also be for all sexual minorities. It will, I assume, have records of each spouse's assignment at birth, gender and sexual orientation, if nothing more, fields that would be absent from the current register that they use. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The question for us though is what rights are conveyed. Many of these couples have already married, they're just not recognized by the state and had no rights. Now the state will recognize them, but recognize them as what? Are they fully married under the law, with all the rights, privileges and duties of other married couples, such as inheritance and the adoption of children? Or is it more a matter of discrimination protection, ability to cohabit, and protection against forced marriage, because they have a marriage on file, even if it doesn't qualify as a 'marriage' for all purposes?

BTW, I like the map on that video, where SSM was listed in various countries as 'recognized', 'not recognized' and 'not legal'. So India is 'not recognized' but Pakistan is 'not legal'. That is, you can legally marry in a country like India, even if it's purely symbolic, but not in Pakistan. That's a distinction I think we might want to make on our map. 'Not legal' (or 'illegal') might include where SSM is unconstitutional plus countries where homosexuality itself is illegal, but not sure what else. — kwami (talk) 03:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

What happened here is, the marriages were not being registered officially because the Civil Code said a marriage is when a man and woman accept each other as husband and wife. The SC decided that that was unconstitutional because the constitution guarantees everyone the right to equality and the right to marriage. That's all that's happened. So, the default right now is that, yes, they get equal marriage rights as everybody. The nuances will come in as actual rights are sought after. Other laws and provisions which use the wordings of "man" and "woman", "husband" and "wife", etc, will prevent them from being applicable to LGBT... couples. They will go to court. Court will ask the government and parliament to amend those provisions. I reckon that's when these conversations about nuances and details will actually start. Until now, there has been no such debate in the political, social or religious spheres. The activists and courts have been expanding LGBT rights on the back of general human rights gains that have occurred in the past decades. Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

In other words, it sounds like the situation in Mexico in the more recalcitrant states. We marked them as having SSM when the SC rulings were handed down, so I suppose we should continue to do the same here. If we're wrong, that will hopefully be cleared up in a few weeks. — kwami (talk) 04:53, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Looks like same sex marriage can actually occur and are about to occur in Nepal if we follow the story I post below unless I am understanding something wrong. https://pahichan.com/2023/07/03/17124/ --Allancalderini12 (talk) 05:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Monday is a holiday, so we should probably have a better idea mid-week. I'm most interested in whether couples who were not plaintiffs in the SC case can access marriage equitably. I could certainly see recalcitrant officials acknowledging that they must record the marriages of those couples the SC directly instructed them to, but damned if they'll do the same for anyone else. Maybe not in Nepal, but I could see that happening in parts of the US and Mexico. — kwami (talk) 05:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

That story does support the interpretation of "temporary" as referring to the court order (as a bridging mechanism in effect only until the proper laws are passed) and not to the marriages. — kwami (talk) 06:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps more likely that 'temporary' means an interim order until the full court rules. If so, presumabl the final ruling is expected to be in favor, but we really need RS analysis. — kwami (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Another recent source discussed at Template_talk:Same-sex_unions#Nepal, though it still doesn't define what "register" means. — kwami (talk) 05:56, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems like the court waits for response from the government.

Source: https://www.aninews.in/news/world/asia/nepal-apex-court-issues-interim-order-to-temporarily-register-same-sex-marriages20230629002842/ Cyanmax (talk) 07:18, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

That claims the marriages themselves are temporary. I wonder if that's OR on the reporter's part.

Can't tell if they've given the govt 15 days to say how they'll comply, to lodge objections, or something else. — kwami (talk) 08:53, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully we'll have an answer by the time the government is mandated to respond. The confusion really has me left in anticipation lol. Has any case of same-sex unions being legal or not been this confusing before? I would guess just Bolivia and Latvia. This South China article seems to recognize it as the second country in Asia to legalize it, in a unrelated article.

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/south-asia/article/3226776/india-gay-marriage-case-supreme-court-could-fuel-gold-rush-nations-wedding-industry SunnyWinx (talk) 22:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

https://www.deccanherald.com/international/world-news-politics/kathmandu-court-rejects-marriage-registration-application-of-gay-couple-1236705.html According to the news, "The Kathmandu District Court on Thursday rejected a marriage registration application filed by a gay couple despite the Supreme Court legalising same-sex marriages in Nepal." It seems there is still some way to go before same-sex marriage can be implemented in Nepal. --渡鴉之王 (talk) 16:43, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. No matter how many sources parrot the claim that Nepal has SSM, until people can actually get married, it doesn't. — kwami (talk) 18:44, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the situation is that the Supreme Court did indeed order the legalization of same-sex marriage in Nepal, or something similar, but the government's stance remains ambiguous. It is unclear whether other courts would also refuse if one court does, or what would happen if other courts accept. There is also a news article in Himalayan Times saying "The interim order also states that if there is a basis or reason why the order should not be issued, a written response must be submitted through the Attorney General's Office within 15 days". So, what's the position of the Nepalese government, I wonder? https://thehimalayantimes.com/kathmandu/kdc-refuses-to-register-same-sex-marriage-despite-apex-court-order --渡鴉之王 (talk) 10:27, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Has anyone attempted to make contact with Sunil Babu Pant or other associated parties? It has been almost a week since the government was supposed to submit a response but we quite literally have no information. Has no couples attempted to try and register their marriages at another district court either? It's so strange to me that there hasn't been more urgency or more exhaustion of any resources that are available. SunnyWinx (talk) 02:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

There's this [4] article from today's Himalayan Times. — kwami (talk) 04:26, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, the SC ordered it but every procedure that will need to be used to enforce it will have to be rewritten to include LGBT+ and no one is in a hurry to do it, since this has not come off political will. Activists and SC have been doing this, while we don't even know what the positions are of major political figures and organisations. It will take a lot of time for them to even acknowledge these issues need addressing. I am betting no one wants to take a firm position either way for as long as they can. The bureaucrats are not going to chuck their instruction manual just because they read news articles about the supreme court decision, while they've got no new instructions through the official channels. Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:27, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Peru

There was a ruling today that seems significant: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/peruvian-court-opens-door-legally-recognize-sex-couples-rcna95930

I can't tell from this article how widely it applies? Jdcooper (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Monaco

Seems there's a separate article advising SSM legislation is "pending" in Monaco - Could Monaco be added to the list of countries in this main article, where SSM legislation is pending - together with Czech Republic, Greece, Liechtenstein etc? Paul leonelli (talk) 06:19, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Source? — kwami (talk) 06:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

LGBT rights by country or territory article - it says same sex marriage is "proposed" in Monaco - though doesn't back this up with further info. If that's not correct then the other article mentioned should be amended to have "proposed" removed Paul leonelli (talk) 07:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Is there a source? LGBT rights in Monaco says nothing about that. — kwami (talk) 07:13, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

If you look in the table under same sex marriage, in that article, it says "proposed" for Monaco! Please look at the table. If that's not correct it needs removing Paul leonelli (talk) 07:29, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2023

Leave the sentence out of the paragraph. It is misleading. It is off the topic of marriage. It lists only the negative side while not listing that the "act itself" is "legal" in xyz countries only illegal in some xyz. Therefore is negatively biased and not accurate and balanced. 47.204.221.228 (talk) 18:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Leave which sentence out of which paragraph? Cannolis (talk) 18:32, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Lastest poll in some countries

the lastest pew research center poll released in September 2023 found that 17% in Malaysia, 57% in Cambodia and 45% in Singapore support same-sex marriage. It's a big increase in those conservative countries. Please add this information to the article.

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2023/09/12/pew-survey-eight-in-10-malaysians-oppose-same-sex-marriage-local-buddhists-most-supportive/90352 113.185.42.54 (talk) 20:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Please add this information to the article. Springtime95 (talk) 13:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected contradiction

The article names two different counties as where Jack Baker and Michael McConnell got married. (Their article says they went to another county than the one where they lived to get a marriage license, but I don't think it makes it clear where the wedding actually took place.) Please fix it or add a {{contradict-self}} tag. --142.112.221.156 (talk) 05:24, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

In the lead paragraph, "34 countries that have a total population of more than 1 billion people" reads as if all 34 countries have over 1 billion people each. The obvious fix is to change "that have" to ", with". --142.112.221.156 (talk) 05:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Done, thanks! Jdcooper (talk) 00:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Vatican

Provocative consideration: could we argue that the Pope's decision to change clergy regulation and authorise blessings of same-sex couples is equivalent to some light form of recognition (eg. unregistered cohabitation)? Clearly, we are talking about religious acts, sacraments. But the Vatican City is a theocratic state, has no form of marriage but religious marriage. One could argue that: blessings without specific lithurgy = unregistered cohabitation; similar lithurgy but distinct from marriage = civil unions; same lithurgy as opposite-sex marriage = same-sex marriage. Thoughts? Finedelledanze (talk) 06:49, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, no. There has never been any prohibition on giving blessings to prostitutes, thieves, murderers on death row, or rapists. This just brings same-sex couples into the same fold as other sinners whose right to be blessed, afaik, has never been challenged. That said, there are some regulations about who can receive various sacraments, such as the Eucharist, or holy orders that are more restrictive. I make no claim that my opinion matches that of the Vatican, or the DDF, and I bet plenty of bishops are boiling over the Pope's remarks. Mathglot (talk) 09:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Eurobarometer's latest poll

the latest eurobarometer in december 2023 showed an increase in support for same-sex in EU countries. Please add this to the article:

https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2972 Springtime95 (talk) 14:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Persistent sock targeting this article

There is a persistent sock who has been targeting this article since at least February 2023. Their M.O. is to create new socks to make edits to this article that downplay the support of same-sex marriage.

Examples:

• Saying scientific studies that support same-sex marriage are merely "claims" [5][6]
• Commenting out the statement that "The most prominent supporters of same-sex marriage are the world's major medical and scientific communities etc..." [7][8].

Accounts involved are: User:Sotavino, User:Atquaman, User:Abisaku, User:SG413K, and most recently, User:Ratterbat.

I'm not sure how to stop these socks, other than reverting their edits and reporting them to WP:SPI each time a new one appears. Perhaps pending changes protection would work? Bennv123 (talk) 04:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Note the current sock account: User:Espanion. Bennv123 (talk) 03:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

You can request protection at SPI, a reviewing admin may agree on the merit given the context. CMD (talk) 09:40, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Nepal date (I)

I don't understand why we put 29 November as the date for Nepal instead of 28 June. The couple tried it and were refused in one city office, then tried later in a different city whose office accepted it. There's no indication they wouldn't have gotten their marriage certificate early on at that second office, it's not like a legal decision was made in between. For example, if a woman was refused an abortion shortly after it was made legal, and initially got it refused at a clinic, then finally found a good one later on, we wouldn't use the date of that second attempt as the date abortion was legalised in that country. We would use the legal one. We should use 28 June for Nepal. What do you think? Aréat (talk) 16:08, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

• There was confusion and legal uncertainty between those dates, and no-one getting married. Then, as the lead to Recognition of same-sex unions in Nepal states: "In the last week of November 2023, the Ministry of Home Affairs allowed local administration offices to begin registering same-sex marriages.". So there was a legal decision, or at least a decision to stop postponing a legal decision. Jdcooper (talk) 17:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  • If the law needs a executive order to become effective, then yes the date should be the November one. But if legally the law doesn't need that executive order, but the Minister had to promulge one because the administration didn't applied the law as it should, then it should be the date in June (even if it wasn't technically possible because of the administration, it was by law), but we should of course explain it with details on the country's section and article. Martin m159 (talk) 08:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

    What "law" are you talking about? Courts cannot make laws, it's the responsibility of the legislature. That's what India's Supreme Court said. It's just an interim order of a single judge bench and the full bench of the Supreme Court is yet to start a final hearing on the matter. It is possible that the interim order can be scrapped while passing the final verdict. Anyway, appealing to the courts is not the best way to get marriage equality. It violates the doctrine of separation of powers and could lead to unforeseeable consequences. Cyanmax (talk) 10:29, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

It says before the table, "Dates are when marriages between same-sex couples began to be officially certified,..." Exactly by that definition, 29 Nov is the correct date. As for "legal" legal, that has not happened yet. Court said "Denying marriage is unconstitutional, make the laws constitution compliant, and however long that takes, because people shouldn't be denied rights for any length of time, set up a different register to register non conventional marriages in the meantime". The government finally said, "yeah, ok", and began registering marriages but it's not clear when the laws will be passed, it's not clear if they are even trying. Usedtobecool ☎️ 10:46, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I've removed Nepal, per discussion at that article and news sources that marriage is not yet enacted. One couple was able to register their marriage after direct intervention of the SC, but even then they had trouble finding a govt office that would file the paperwork. Other couples haven't been able to marry. AFICT, supporting legislation hasn't been introduced, so it's probably going to be a while, possibly years, before there is SSM in Nepal without individual court rulings. — kwami (talk) 04:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Yet another couple has now married in Nepal. That's at least three that have made the headlines now. Nepal should stay for now.

https://www.deccanherald.com/world/first-lesbian-couple-in-nepal-officially-registers-their-marriage-2890929

Minecraft69 (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2024

Faid17 (talk) 23:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done I believe that Greece has already been added. Coulomb1 (talk) 02:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Greece to be added to the table with countries that legalised same sex marriage in the 2024 slot, besides Estonia.

Removing Nepal from the list (II)

I'm going to remove Nepal from the list of countries that legalized same-sex marriage. I found updated maps and none of them include Nepal.

1. https://edition.cnn.com/world/same-sex-marriage-legal-countries-map-dg/index.html

2. https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/02/16/this-map-shows-you-where-same-sex-marriage-is-legal-around-the-world-and-theres-a-long-way-to-go/

3. https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/greece-has-legalised-same-sex-marriage-whose-next/ameik3g2k

4. https://www.hrc.org/resources/marriage-equality-around-the-world

I was right all along, while some wikiusers contributed to the spread of disinformation, just like they did with Armenia in 2017. I don't need their apologies for calling me a "vandal" and trying to block me. Everybody makes mistakes, they just need to admit they're wrong. It doesn't matter how much you love Bangladesh, Nepal, Somalia, Armenia etc. Critical thinking and common sense always come first. Cyanmax (talk) 16:47, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Natural law arguments

Why are natural law arguments against same-sex marriage entirely excluded from the article? Where is Aquinas? The current article throws up strawman against thinkers that oppose it. CoolidgeCalvin (talk) 01:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Timeline

I was wondering if it might be worth removing the Native American territories, US states, and Mexican states, and British overseas territories from the main timeline. I think it clutters the timeline quite a bit, (especially now that every Mexican state has legalised it). I'm not that opposed to keeping them, but I would be interested to hear others views. The sheer number of Native American territories does seem to clutter the list a lot. Perhaps instead there could be a footnote or section that explains which British territories, and Native American settlements have not legalised same-sex marriage now that the vast majority have. We could also move the dates for non-sovereign countries somewhere else. What do others think? Jasp7676 (talk) 14:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm loathe to tinker with it. I get what you mean but since sovereign states have a flag icon, it's very quick to visually identify states vs small entitites. Akerbeltz (talk) 15:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

We once did what you suggest, but consensus was against it and we reverted. The short list is in the timeline article. — kwami (talk) 18:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Same sex marriage

Maito Kismar R G10 Arroyo 3/29/24 2001:4456:C70:1800:B851:D4ED:F98F:3043 (talk) 08:01, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Removal of prominent supporters/opposition sentence from the lead

The rationale for this removal is WP:OR / WP:SYNTH; we can't remove a longstanding part of the lead just because an editor personally feels otherwise. And per WP:LEADCITE, something like that in the lead can just summarize aspects of the body - it doesn't require sources for that. But I've added some sources from the body anyway. We can't frame it as an opinion (as the editor who removed it requested) because per WP:NPOV, Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice; an editor personally disliking a statement doesn't make it contested. More broadly, we need a sentence in the lead summarizing who the overall supporters and opponents of gay marriage are - note that it is cautiously worded ("most prominent" does not mean everyone.) We could tweak its wording a bit and find better sources, but I don't think we can remove it entirely. --Aquillion (talk) 16:58, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll start by pointing out the obvious. The present claim was never independently verifiable. We're not going to entertain that it is equivalent to referencing a specific event that was independently witnessed by 100 people at the same time.

I don't necessarily take issue with the political commentary being in the article assuming POV is expressed as an opinion, but I would disagree at this time that the framework of support and opposition needs to be in the lead. The circumstance in which a relationship is not considered to be the same as that of a husband and wife does not necessitate that one oppose the relationship. The circumstance in which a relationship is considered the same as that of a husband and wife does not mean it will be supported.

The simplistic notion of conflicting support/opposition is not reflecting from the multifaceted reality. We aren't talking about a certain declared conflict or a case with sides that are clearly conflicted.

Repurposing the sources was very helpful, as I was not previously aware of what you believe should be summarized. I would invite you to reconsider that the critical rationale still holds whether or not you happen to disagree with some specifics of common knowledge used for illustrative purpose.

The issue of forcibly redefining marriage in a way that is unrecognizable to millions is inherently complex, and as it stands the material in question cannot convey intelligible information on the issue in the intended form of the sentence. This is because the sentence is made as a rhetorical addition to the article. However many sources support a desired outcome for someone's preferred opinion, it should be worded as an opinion if you insist on keeping it. StuckMuck (talk) 16:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Public opinion

Found relatively new public opinion polls in some Balkan countries. Don't know if it's reliable enough though https://lgbti-era.org/publications/attitudes-towards-lgbtiq-people-in-the-western-balkans/ 5.197.129.202 (talk) 12:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Please provide changes to be made in XY format; it is currently unclear what you want changed. Irltoad (talk) 09:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Request for extra opinions

Extra opinions with expertise on the subject are required in a discussion at Talk:Recognition of same-sex unions in Israel#The Nature of Legality. Thanks. Jdcooper (talk) 11:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2024

Please add this section under 'Studies'

The overall effects of legal access to same-sex marriage have been summarized by Badgett and co-authors. The review found that sexual minority individuals took-up legal marriage when it became available to them (but at lower rates than different-sex couples). There is instead no evidence that same-sex marriage legalization affected different-sex marriages. On the health side, same-sex marriage legalization increased health insurance coverage for individuals in same-sex couples in the US, and it led to improvements in sexual health among men who have sex with men, while there is mixed evidence on mental health effects among sexual minorities. In addition, the study found mixed evidence on a range of downstream social outcomes such as attitudes toward LGBTQ+ people and employment choices of sexual minorities. Ds1289 (talk) 19:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Is that specific to the US? — kwami (talk) 21:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. @Ds1289: Your account is now autoconfirmed. RudolfRed (talk) 00:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

References

Kosovo: SSM or CUs?

@Cyanmax: this article uses the term 'marriage'. I didn't want to make the claim here without confirmation. — kwami (talk) 04:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

According to the German media, in his speech in Berlin he referred to civil partnerships, not SSM [9] Akerbeltz (talk) 08:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

But that article also says "only 20% of Kosovars support same-sex unions" when that's actually the support for marriage. — kwami (talk) 06:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

<shrugs> I don't know. All I can imagine is that when you ask this question in parts of the world, people aren't necessarily aware of the difference. It's like people in Hong Kong conflating 'England' with the 'UK' I guess, they're mostly confused when I patiently try to explain that I live in Scotland, not England. Akerbeltz (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Churches that support

With the United Methodist church accepting SSM, I came here thinking we probably have a list, but I can't find one. We have various articles on religion and SSM, but I'm thinking this article should include a list that allow their clergy to perform SSM, like we do for countries. Or would it be too difficult to create something coherent? — kwami (talk) 06:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)