Talk:Samaale

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Proposed merge

This clan appears to be a superset of some large Somali clans (e.g. Irir Samaale, Hawiye, Dir (clan). I'm wondering if "Samaale" is simply a Somali language spelling of (or otherwise synonymous with) "Somali." If so then this should be merged with and redirected to Somali people. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From my reading, it appears to be a kind of label for certain clans, rather than a clan in itself. See Somali clan which I've just created. Gailtb 18:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The origins of Samaale

Some editors believe that Samaale is an Arabian individual, yet this is a known common misleading trope in Somali culture known to have been false due to the influence of Islam on Somalis. In my opinion, the putative Arabian origin should be lower down the article and not in the lead as many sources show him to be a pre-Islamic and some even support him to be a mythical figure who never even existed. Wadaad (talk) 17:21, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's supported by a lot of scholarly work that Samaale traces descent from Arabia and Abi Talib like other Somalis including the Darood and Isaaq. Some scholars support Isaaq and Darood to be mythological figures too and to have never existed. Yet you are trying to spread a narrative that it's only the Samaale group who do not trace descent from Arabia, while it was common among all Somalis, which all scholars agree on. To leave the supposed Arabic descent out is propaganda. All Somalis trace descent from Arabia through their genealogy. It's only fair to add a Arab hypothesis to the Somali people page. Jamalwalal (talk) 17:39 August 2019 (UTC)

Please do not revert material before a consensus is reached. Samaale is the brother of Sab (forefather of the Southern Rahanweyn clan). It is highly unlikely that such a deeply ancient figure could have been an Islamic Arabian. The TMRCA of Somalis is generally in the 4,000 to 2,000 years before present (see this section). Wadaad (talk) 17:45, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is not about all Somali's and not a hypothesis, since it's agreed upon by majority of the mainstream scholars that Samaale genealogically traces it's descent to Arabia through Aqel Abi Talib, [1], [2], [3], [4] , [5] , [6] . Now if Somalis of the Samaale including the Darood and Isaaq truly trace descent from Arabia that is debatable on the Somali people page. An Arab hypotheses is more fitting there, since TMRCA is about all Somalis not specifically Samaale. Jamalwalal (talk) 17:49 August 2019 (UTC)

@Jamalwalal: Hiil is the direct father of Samaale. Sab and Samaale, therefore, they have the same ancestral background. Thus, this essentially covers practically all Somalis. By the way, genetic studies already show that the Isaaq and Darod are not of Arabian origin. Lastly, whether his name was Cusmaan (Islamic) is a contentious and controversial statement not supported by all sources and consequently should be left in the Arabian hypothesis section and not in the introduction. Wadaad (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree about the Osman part, You are clutching at straws no Historian mentions the genealogical tradition of Samaale going through Cush all mention descent through Aqiil Abi Talib wether he is mythological or not. I agree not the introduction, but his Arabic genealogical tradition should not be removed. You are trying to spread propaganda and I will not allow it.Jamalwalal (talk

You are trying to spread propaganda by adding the pre-historic origin of Samaale to the Genealogy header, but removing the mainstream genealogical traditions of Samaale from the History header. While adding Samaale Arab genealogical traditions as an hypothesis, while basically all mainstream sources mention Samaale genealogical traditions going through Aqil Abi Talib. This is not up for debate. Sir Wikipedia is not a tool for propaganda. I would though like to reach a consensu by adding your contributions and my contributions both to the History header. Jamalwalal (talk) added 18:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know samaale doesn't have an Arab origin darood and Isaaq might but not samaale himself hes lineage is hardly mentioned not hair origin, just that he is the proginator of the Somali people Sahasu (talk) 22:33, 19 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know samaale doesn't have an Arab origin darood and Isaaq might but not samaale himself hes lineage is hardly mentioned not his origin, just that he is the proginator of the Somali people Sahasu (talk) 22:34, 19 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Historic context

Ioan Lewis has published books concerning Somali genealogy. I’ll add him as a source since the sources attached are not in function. Wiilciise1 (talk) 00:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Oldest" common forefather?

The first sentence of this article currently says:

Samaale, also spelled Samali or Samale (Somali: Samaale) is traditionally considered to be the oldest common forefather of several major Somali clans and their respective sub-clans.

But surely oldest is not the right word here: Samaale's father is an older common forefather, and his grandfather an even older common forefather. Should this actually say youngest common forefather, or most recent common ancestor? —Bkell (talk) 19:21, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes! Thanks for catching that. He's of course also a legendary figure, so I wouldn't link to Most recent common ancestor or even call him youngest common forefather, which tends to suggest he was a real person. Just 'common forefather' like this is correct, right? ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]