Talk:Salazarese dialect

Naming

Now, should not be more convenient to move Salazarese to Zaraitzu Basque?--Ardoila (talk) 06:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

We had this conversation, no, it wouldn't ;) Akerbeltz (talk) 10:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I checked. Trask only uses Salazarese; even the Fonoteka uses "Salazarese" in their English interface. Rather than argue about the name, it would be much more informative to readers if we added content! Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if the English speaking world used Bizkaiera, Zaraitzuera etc but thing is, it doesn't. Do a google search and you'll find those terms are almost invariable used in Basque language texts only. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

This isn't about nationality. You may want to read Wikipedia:Edit war before we go any further. Where exactly do you think Trask is inconsistent? Akerbeltz (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think we had this conversation before. So I changed my point and I didn't try to continue with Zaraitzuera, I changed to a denomination used in English papers: Zaraitzu Basque (or Zaraitzu Dialect or Salazar Dialect, if you prefer). I did some research as well and I found different denominations (in English documents). Anyway, did you read the article? Is there anything wrong with the references or the arguments?. I think it's easy to speak about soapboxing, are you sure that you are not doing that?.

Trask only used Salazarese, it's true. But it happened to be that he used Aezkoan, Bizkaian, Gipuzkoan, Lapurdian and Zuberoan from the Basque names (Aezkoa, Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa, Lapurdi, Zuberoa), Navarrese, Labourdin, Roncalese, Souletin, Salazarese from the French names (Navarre, Labourd, Roncal, Soule, Salazar), and Vizcayan from Spanish (Vizcaya). I think that Larry Trask did an important job to show the Basque to the English academical world. Although in my opinion there are much better studies that his works written in Basque language by Basque researchers. And his way of naming the dialects was not consistent respect to the origins of the words.

The use of Fonoteka is not so trusting for me, Fonoteka is a page of the Government of Navarre, a rigth handed and Spanish nationalist government (Navarrese People's Union), that (and this is an opinion) it's probably trying to use the dialects as against the increasing growth of the Basque (Standard Basque) in Navarre. Look at their denominations, they use Labourdin and Guipuzcoan instead of Lapurdian or Gipuzkoan (Trask names), the maps in their page are wrong and in Spanish. They use Spanish denominations even when the official one is in Basque (Guipúzcoa), and they obviously forget the official denominations (Urdax against Urdazubi/Urdax).

Finally, two details, there is no documentation about the last Zaraitzu Basque speaker (as it was in Erronkari Basque), and there are in fact native Zaraitzu Basque speakers nowadays, so it is a Basque dialect spoken. Second, in Basque, in oposition to the English, the names of the languages are written in lower case.

In fact, I'm trying to show at least one part of the Basque language to the English speakers (as Larry Trask did, but unfortunately he died in 2004). So I would thank if you could make any improvement apart from censoring my referenced work. Yes, I already know that maybe I'm making new points to you, but I'm not inventing anything, they are out there, look into the books (or the internet). I hope not being wasting my time (and yours) here, and that we can reach a consensus and move forward (there is much more to say about the Zaraitzu Basque (or Basque of Zaraitzu) than its name).--Ardoila (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

• Trask uses Salazarese, Aezkoan and Roncalese. True, he then has Bizkaian, Gipuzkoan and Zuberoan. But that's not common in English publications and certainly not a justification for Zaraitzu Basque/Zaraitzuera.
• Uhalde (Basque Phonology, Routledge) doesn't mention Salazarese but also uses Roncalese, Biscayan Guipuscoan, Navarrese, Labourdin, Souletin. There appears to be one paper (Gaminde & Hualde) where he useses Zaraitzu Basque (also the ONLY instance of its use in English on the web).
• Gorka Aulestia uses Biscayan, Guipuzcoan, Labourdin, Navarrese and Souletin, doesn't mention the others.
• The Fonoteka (irrespective of your political misgivings) uses Salazarese, Navarrese, Labourdin, Aezkoan and Roncalese.
• Salazarese is also used by UCLA, Buber's page, HABE (also has Roncalese)... the list gets longer.

So frankly, Salazarese is what it's called in English. Now you and I may prefer another name, but that's NOT the point here.

Secondly, this page shouldn't be an exposé on what we should call the dialect. We can list alternate names and names in other languages, but the way you're presenting it at the moment really reads "I think it should be called X because".

Apologies, I didn't realise that the two last speakers are still alive, I had something at the back of my head that they'd died. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Again, at this moment there is no unique standard denomination for this dialect in English, or at least Salazarese is not the unique denomination in English.

• Trask uses Salazarese and Roncalese from French origin, and Aezkoan, Bizkaian, Gipuzkoan and Zuberoan from Basque. I agree that this is not common in English publications and certainly not a justification for Zaraitzu Basque, Salazarese or anything else (Trask, L. The History of Basque. Routledge, 1997.).

• Hualde (Basque Phonology, Routledge, 1991) doesn't mention Salazarese but also uses Roncalese, Biscayan Guipuscoan, Navarrese, Labourdin, Souletin.

• The same Hualde 7 years later uses Bizkaian, Gipuzkoan, Lapurdian, Navarrese, High Navarrese, Zuberoan, Baztan dialect, Roncal or Erronkari dialect and Salacenco, Salazar or Zaraitzu dialect, in ( Hualde, J.I.. & Gaminde I. (1998) Vowel interaction in Basque: A nearly-exhaustive catalogue. Studies in the Linguistic Sciences 28: 41-77.)

• Hualde again in 2003 uses western, Bizkaian, central, Gipuzkoan, Lapurdian-Navarrese, High Navarrese, Eastern Navarrese, Zuberoan, Roncalese and Zaraitzu dialect and Salazarese (Hualde, J.I. & Ortiz de Urbina, J. A Grammar of Basque. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter, 2003.).

• Gorka Aulestia uses Bizkaian, Gipuzkoan, Lapurdin, Nafarroan, Behe-nafarrera dialect and Zuberoan dialect, doesn't mention the others. (Improvisational Poetry from the Basque Country, 1995).

• Gorka Aulestia uses Bizkaian, Gipuzkoan, Lapurdin, Navarrese and Zuberoan dialect, doesn't mention the others. (The Basque Poetic Tradition Aulestia, G. & White L., 2000).

• Bert Vaux uses Zaraitzu Basque in (Vaux, B. (2001) Consonant epenthesis and hypercorrection . LSA Annual Meeting, Washington DC.)

All these references can be accessed in English on the web.

Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources when available Wikipedia:Reliable sources.

Secondly, I agree totally with you, if the way I’m presenting it at the moment really reads "I think it should be called X because", this is totally wrong, it should read:

“At this moment there is no unique standard denomination for this dialect in English: Zaraitzu Basque, Zaraitzu dialect, Salazar dialect, Salacenco, Salazarese; (Basque: zaraitzuera, Zaraitzuko euskara, locally uskara) is the Basque dialect spoken in Zaraitzu or Salazar Valley.”--Ardoila (talk) 01:50, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The facts:

• Zaraitzu Basque or Zaraitzu dialect is the translation of the Basque version Zaraitzuko euskara or Zaraitzuera.

• Salazarese originates from the French version of Louis-Lucien Bonaparte (Salazarais, probably a neologism ("-ese" is used mostly for East Asian and Francophone locations, from the similar-sounding French suffix -ais(e)). This is not the case of Zaraitzu, where French has never been a common language, and the adjective Salazarais is not found in French language applied to Zaraitzu, except for Bonaparte´s works.

• The regular English adjective (demonym) would be Zaraitzuan or Salazarian (now used in English as an adjective related with the dictator Salazar), but this has not been used before refering to Zaraitzu or Salazar Valley.

• Zaraitzu Basque is analogous to some denominations of English dialects (California English, Hudson Valley English).

• Recent scientific English publications about linguistics use mainly Zaraitzu Basque or Zaraitzu dialect.

Material

I was looking for something else and came across a source of lots of Salazarese stuff on the Uni of the Rioja's website [1]. I don't have time atm but there's lots of stuff we could use to flesh out the article. Akerbeltz (talk) 18:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I had added already this material on 2 May 2009 (together with more references), but I erased it on 29 July of 2009 because you considered that having a longer list of bibliography than the content of the article was not adecuate (talk, 33 Zaraitzuera)--Ardoila (talk) 19:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Census

There is no official census of Basque speakers knowing the Zaraitzu Basque, there is an official census of generic Basque speakers carried out in 2001.--Ardoila (talk) 19:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe but that's not the way it works on here ;) If you're disputing a fact, you first stick a fact|date tag on because you cannot always be sure that you know everything. Someone else may have info you're not aware of. Akerbeltz (talk) 19:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

In this case I'm 100% sure that this is not correct. The reference is supposed to be added from es.wiki. In the article about salacenco there is no reference to this 2002 linguistic census.--67.166.145.69 (talk) 20:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, at some point someone must have figured a) that there's only 2 native speakers left and b) that x% speak batua. If the year 2002 is wrong, we need to find the right date and ref, not remove the statement. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)