Talk:Saint George and the Dragon

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St George is both possibly a real Roman mounted cavalier soldier and “saviour”. He is known to have died in Lydda (Lod) in 303 BCE. It is most possible that he achieved “saviour status” by killing a Striped Hyena and rescuing this small town from attack by predatory hyenas, possibly killing the dominant hyena of the pack. Such hyena attacks were well known in these times and up until the 19C when these animals became endangered and extinct in Palestine. They still inhabit forested valleys north of Beirut where possibly less than 100 animals remain. When attacked they change colouration (to zebra stripes) and raise a mane along the length of their backs in a “dragon-like” mode. They have very powerful jaws that can snap a human limb with ease. There is a Levantine tradition of villagers sacrificing sheep and goats to them, as well as telling their children bedtime stories of their fierce nature.

The Crusaders may have encountered them in the Holy Lands but considered them “dragons” (early images are hyena-like) and picked up the mythology of veneration by both Christians (of St George) and Muslims (of Al Khadr). He is still venerated by both in Lydda (Lod) to this date. He is further venerated in Palestine, Syria and Lebanon for whom he is a patron and national saint (coinciding with the exact bio-historic hunting range areas of the Levantine Hyena).

I learnt the truth about the “dragon” on a visit to Lydda years ago with my father, but which is not to say that I want to spoil a “good story”, and I have a grandson called George! However much of St George hagiography is made-up of medieval myths created by clerics and monks in the Middle Ages but is also associated with wonderful art, icons and human culture.

St George and the Hyena does not sound as exciting, but is possibly actually true! Also spare a thought for this very endangered mammal in the Lebanon (now acknowledged as its national animal). Enjoy St George’s Day and do fly his flag! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pocacapapetl (talk • contribs) 17:33, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Contemporary Retelling

This was in the article on Saint George:

"A comic book, Aliens vs. Predator Annual #1, retold the story with the "dragon" of the legend revealed to be a Yautja, or Predator."

I took it out of there and have added it to this article, as it seems more relevant. Kayman1uk 09:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

EC comics had a retelling of this story where the dragon was really a joy riding alien who crashes his father spaceship on earth--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- For what it's worth, it wasn't a Predator in the Aliens vs Predator comic, it was an Alien. Xenomrph (talk) 05:23, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Dracula"

Since my last change to remove the line "Dracula of course means dragon" was reverted with "Wiktionary disagrees", I figured I'd put some justification here.

First, what Wiktionary says under Etymology:

From the name Vlad III Dracula (also known as Vlad Tepes), from his father's name Vlad II Dracul, who was given the name Dracul by the Order of the Dragon. Dracul comes from the Romanian drac, originally meaning dragon and coming from the Latin draco.

So, what Wiktionary actually says is that Dracula is derived from Dracul, and it is Dracul that means "dragon". Further, from the Vlad Tepes article:

His Romanian surname Drakyula (also spelled "Drăculea", "Dracula"), by which Vlad was referred to in several documents, means "son of the dragon", in reference to his father, Vlad Dracul

So, in summary: "Dracul" means "Dragon" or "Devil", and "Dracula" means "Son of Dracul". Therefore, it is incorrect to include the line "Dracula of course meaning dragon". -- g026r (talk) 22:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Small-ish Dragon

It seems to me that most European dragons are show as being larger than a house, while Saint George's dragon is almost always show much, much smaller. Why is this? 70.20.232.141 18:07, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Baryonyx

What about claims that it's a true story and that the Dragon was a Baryonyx?

As old as the Proto-Indo-European Mythologies that are at the root of this are, they aren't that old —Preceding unsigned comment added by LamontCranston (talk • contribs) 11:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can answer that right here!

Dinosaurs by Design and Dinosaurs Those Terrible lizards Part 6

The claim about Baryonyx being the dragon George has killed is entirely false. The dragon in the tale is described to have wings and a poison breath which the dinosaur completely lacked thereof. Plus the dragon in some paintings is shown to have just 2 limbs while other painting depicts the dragon to have 4 limbs. According to the story, the dragon is described as a quadruped monster while Baryonyx is in fact only a bipedal animal. When Creationist Dan Lietha did a false portrayal of Baryonyx in his paintings, he rendered the creature as just a skinny quadruped animal with additional horns, spikes, even dog ears, making it to be everything Baryonyx in fact isn't-- What is shown in many creationist books on dinosaurs is huge example of how creationists distort folklore to fit their own corrupt agenda.--Crazyharp81602 (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Based on a true story (& I don't mean Hollywood style), quite possibly. Baryonyx? Given how long ago St George lived any dragon/dinosaur he/whomever may have slain is not going to be identifiable. Insufficient historical evidence to determine anything and oral history/mythology lacks value. Just look at the difficulties prooving the existence of and identifying the location of the 'mythical' Troy. 118.208.145.121 (talk) 05:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Vegetarian/Christian Dragon

I've read in a couple of books that 'in fact' George did not kill the dragon. Instead, he converted it to Christianity, and, perhaps, persuaded it to become a vegetarian. These tales were presented as the 'correct' version of the story, implying that it is merely a myth (ironically) that George slew the dragon. I've never understood what they meant (as it's all just a legend anyway) or where they got this idea from. Has anyone else encountered this? It has troubled for some time so even if we don't come up with something for the article I hope at least my mind can be set to rest! Wikiwikiwoolgar (talk) 17:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The legend section

It needs serious clean up. It sounds like it's just telling the story, not encyclopeadic at all. Even the telling is pretty bad. "The daughter was sent out to the lake, decked out as a bride," —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.218.140 (talk) 20:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC) I have been working as a Ghost writer for an Historian and have come across the ancient story of Hazrat Ali killing the dragon and saving the villagers etc and a rock still remaining in the shape of the dragon with a sword cleft in its head and red tulips growing where the dragons blood fell. Has this been mentioned as another "saint" story? signed "Ghostie" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.160.130 (talk) 14:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pre Christian sources?

I reacted to the sentence saying that some historians claim that the legend is based on pagan myths. I did a short googling and found at least 3 reliable references, BBC, a Brittish history site and the Catholic Encyclipedia (the latter refuting the claim and naming one such historian, if he can be called such. Do what you like with this information. I rarely edit here anymore because I always get complaints, but these links could be added as sources and to name at least one person who claims that the legend of S:t George comes from pre-Christian pagan sources.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/saints/george_1.shtml http://www.anglobilia.com/legends/stgeorge.html

"In any case the late occurrence of this development refutes the attempts made to derive it from pagan sources. Hence it is certainly not true, as stated by Hartland, that in George's person "the Church has converted and baptized the pagan hero Perseus" (The Legend of Perseus, iii, 38)." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06453a.htm / Benzocaine (talk) 16:45, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Intresting reading, altough it's more or less pure speculation unless the author of the legend actually wrote "This is my christian version of: the legend of Persus". and drawing random citations/references from books doesn't mean it's true.

It's like taking references from neo-nazi books and claiming the The Holocaust was fake.. --109.58.47.190 (talk) 15:18, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Does the dragon actually have a name in any texts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.212.143 (talk) 09:13, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Needs more Eastern Orthodox perspective and detail on the concrete origins of this story

The article focuses on the western tradition of St George and the Dragon, but neglects the origin of this story in Eastern Orthodox tradition. The summary section says "The earliest known depictions of the motif are from tenth- or eleventh-century Cappadocia[2] and eleventh-century Georgia;[3]", but this is not covered elsewhere in the article. The footnotes should be pulled into a section (perhaps best named "Origins") with more information from the cited references and other sources. Then the "Origins" section, which currently covers other similar stories, should probably be renamed something like "Related Stories" ★NealMcB★ (talk) 15:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:St George and the Dragon by Brian Whelan.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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King Lear - Jumping to Conclusions?

It seems to me to be a bit of a leap to claim that just because the character King Lear mentions a dragon, that the reference is in any way connected to the "St. George and the Dragon" legend. A "dragon" is of course a well-known mythological creature. If there are scholarly arguments concerning why this is specifically a reference related to St. George they should be mentioned; otherwise as far as I'm concerned this is a completely unfounded statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.248.241 (talk) 11:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ST. GEORGE AS EGO-SLAYER

"A "dragon" is of course a well-known mythological creature". Precisely. Specifically, an ego-myth. As is the Polynesian Taniwha, which also swallows countless people; or Jonah's big fish, namely pride; the Minotaur that devours those lost in the labyrinth of life; Jonathon and Goliath (the stone hits Goliath's head); the hundred-headed Hydra (as fast as one head is lopped off, more grow); and countless others. All slain by warriors. In "The Arabian Nights", King Shahriar (spirit) 'slays' the ego constantly, but the ego (Scheherezade)as ego, invents fantastic stories every night in an attempt to prevent him waking to reality. Irrespective that some of these legends may have been embroidered onto real biography. They all relate to the journey from the head to the heart, the dragon being ego (mind), which becomes intoxicated by the notion that body and mind are human reality, and control destiny, instead of Self/spirit.122.62.13.247 (talk) 07:21, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the Southern Hemisphere?

You might want to be a little more specific, since "Southern Hemisphere" could mean anything from Africa to South America to Polynesia to Australasia, and as someone who grew up down that way, I can say for damn sure we never got taught anything about St. George in the moon. -118.168.4.32 (talk) 08:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Faerie Queen

The Redcrosse Knight is revealed to be St. George, so shouldn't The Faerie Queene be mentioned? 206.87.106.123 (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lacking definition

The opening sentence does not define the subject of the article as it should. 86.152.162.108 (talk) 04:36, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Images

I counted 17 different images--does the article really need that many? Downwiththesyndrome (talk) 07:17, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't seem excessive for a very visual subject. Johnbod (talk) 14:00, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry my reply is so late. I was just thinking that some of these images are similar, and maybe the ones that don't add something new could be removed. I found some similar articles here, here, and and here, and I believe each are effective with less than 17 pictures. But if the community says this article has just the right amount of files, then I guess that's just my problem, as I probably haven't been active long enough challenge this. Downwiththesyndrome (talk) 01:24, 22 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But we need to be picky, the images we show must be notable and well-referenced. "some random icon we found on the internet" isn't useful. "Cloisonné enamel icon of St. George from Georgia" is better, but if we cannot identify the object in question, we are basically believing whoever posted this to commons and leave the verification to the reader. In this case, ~~it's just an educated guess.~~ 10 minutes of googling was enough to establish provenance.[1]

This is an article on an artistic motif, it can have as many images as it likes, but the source of the images need to be established. --dab (𒁳) 12:08, 27 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the verifiability of vast numbers of images on Commons is low or non-existent, unless you happen to know. too many to do anything much about. Johnbod (talk) 13:51, 27 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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