Talk:Andrew the Apostle

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 30, 2004, November 30, 2005, November 30, 2006, and November 30, 2007.

Archives

1

LOCATION ON FIND A GRAVE FOR SAINT ANDREW

Can anyone supply the location on the virtual site Find A Grave for Saint Andrew? I shall be grateful.DR M WIMSATT (talk) 06:15, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

George Alexandrou and St. Andrew history

Please read first:

http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_19/The_Astonishing_Missionary_Journeys.pdf

According to Alexandrou, St. Andrew spent 20 years in Dacia. All new data are attested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.112.31.157 (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a point or an edit suggestion somewhere here? Ckruschke (talk) 15:52, 27 November 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke[reply]

It is a WP:FRINGE or WP:QS pilgrimage testimonial written by a non-scholar. Nowhere Alexandrou claims to be a historian. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:26, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Inappropriate Saltire

I'm not happy with the Battle Flag of the Confederacy being on this page. This page actually states that the designer of the battle flag himself stated the reason why it is a saltire- to avoid religious connections of other crosses, therefore nothing to do with St Andrew or any other saltires. This is NOT a page about saltires and I know of no evidence that the saltire cross started with St Andrew.

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Upon reading the relevant articles, I agree with you 100%, and have removed it from this article. Elizium23 (talk) 23:12, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move (February 2013)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have a rough consensus that the article should be moved to remove "saint" per Wikipedia:NCCL#Saints; of the various suggested options, the original proposal of "Andrew the Apostle" appears to have the best support. Cúchullain ^t/c 20:08, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Saint Andrew → Andrew the Apostle – "Saint Andrew" is subjective to certain Christian traditions, whereas "Andrew the Apostle" is objective and suitable to all. Also: WP:NCCL#Saints. Wikipedian77 (talk) 02:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Two failed move requests for this article already. See nothing within this request that indicates the result of this move will be any different.--Labattblueboy (talk) 14:50, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment With respect, I very much oppose the idea that objectivity in articles should be subject to Wikipedia politics. That notion, in my opinion, undermines the credibility and accuracy of Wikipedia. I am personally frustrated with this article title as I do not consider this man a "saint", nor would I ever refer to him as "Saint Andrew". (This is like titling Jesus' article "Jesus Christ" or Mohandas Gandhi's article "Mahatma Gandhi".) "Andrew the Apostle" is clearly a much more reasonable and objective title, and the "saint" is not necessary to recognize this man. —Wikipedian77 (talk) 16:17, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the inclusion of "saint" as being subjective. I was always of the impression that that was/is the common name. I conducted a basic search and it appears that Saint Andrew the Apostle is even more common than simply Andrew the Apostle. A google book search showed no shortage of sources employing Saint Andrew, that being said the quality of the results is not assured. Nevertheless, I'm incline to stick with the current title on a common name basis.--Labattblueboy (talk) 17:10, 17 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Andrew (apostle). Any assertion based on WP:COMMONNAME, which is all that "Saint Andrew" has going for it, should be based on reliable sources, consideration of which is strangely lacking from previous discussions. The Oxford Companion to the Bible, just uses "Andrew" as a heading on page 27 and The Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, also uses "Andrew" as a heading on page 50. Andrew, brother of Simon Peter uses "Andrew" throughout when not quoting someone. The rest of the cited sources are hagiographies, in foreign languages, or don't seem relevant enough to the subject to matter. "Andrew ~~the Apostle~~ (apostle)" seems a good, neutral disambiguation. I would also support Andrew as this would seem to be the primary topic. --JFH (talk) 16:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm changing my support to Andrew (apostle) given arguments below. --JFH (talk) 03:06, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment there are two previous move requests in the /Archive 1 for this very same move proposal, both of which failed. One from 2009 and another from 2010, which new commentators may wish to examine. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment While "Andrew the Apostle" may be preferable as it would make this title consistent with most other Biblical figures, "Andrew (disciple of Jesus)" or simply "Andrew" would be perfectly fine. The "Saint" title is subjective and should be avoided with everyone unless they are essentially only recognized by that name (e.g., Saint Patrick). Many Christian traditions regularly refer to Andrew without ever referring to him as "Saint Andrew". —Wikipedian77 (talk) 22:27, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nom. This is not the only Saint Andrew (there is also Saint Andrew of Crete), and not even all Christian traditions use the term "Saint". The proposed name is just plain better. Since we already have an article on Andrew, I don't think we should try to make this article under that name. I have read the arguments against the rename and other discussions and find them unconvincing. He is more clearly identified as Andrew the Apostle than as Saint Andrew. Of the first he is the only one, of the second, he is not the only one.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:40, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

He is very clearly the primary "Saint Andrew"; the several others are all deeply obscure, and have other names like (perhaps the best known) Andrew the Scot. This argument doesn't wash, especially given the lack of a good alternative. Johnbod (talk) 14:27, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support/rename per nom. Previous discussion didn't give sufficient weight to WP:NPOV and WP:HONORIFIC, also the WP:COMMONNAME in academic sources dealing with any historical real person here is clearly, at least post Acts 1, "Andrew the apostle"/"the apostle Andrew" and not "Saint Andrew" which refers to later veneration. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:56, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose move. "Andrew the Apostle" is quite a rare designation. As is mentioned above, "Andrew" is much more common, so Andrew (apostle) or Andrew (disciple of Jesus) would be preferable. St Anselm (talk) 01:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I actually think Andrew (apostle) is probably the best; however, as JFH pointed out on a different article, the ". . . the Apostle" format seems to be dominant as of now. I think it would probably be best if all articles with the ". . . the Apostle" format in their current titles were replaced with ". . . (apostle)". —Wikipedian77 (talk) 19:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Apostle Andrew ? -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 23:10, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support move, although I also prefer Andrew (apostle). bd2412 T 02:43, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above and previous debates. The nomination mentions WP:NCCL#Saints, but this is clearly a comparable example to Saint Patrick, their example of a title that should use saint. The current title is also best under WP:COMMONNAME, and no evidence has been produced at all tro show otherwise, although of course these names do not give google search results that are easy to interpret. Johnbod (talk) 03:01, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I gave several reliable sources above, which is what we should be looking at, not Google searches. --JFH (talk) 14:10, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You gave two sources, both books specifically about Christianity, so where a Christian context could be taken for granted, both of which used the plain name Andrew. That is no help deciding on the appropriate name for a general encyclopedia, and certainly doesn't support this rename. The first two general RS I looked at are: the BBC, which uses Saint Andrew, as does Britannica. Those are more relevant. I can't help thinking there is some POV here. Johnbod (talk) 14:21, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:NPOV, WP:HONORIFIC and WP:COMMONNAME. Andrew (apostle) or Andrew (disciple of Jesus) are also good.--Srleffler (talk) 03:15, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: See <Talk:Saint Peter#Requested move> for related discussion. —Wikipedian77 (talk) 19:28, 13 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per StAnselm and Johnbod. And please let us not have a requested move of this one as soon as this closes, too many of these RMs (St Peter etc.) already. History2007 (talk) 23:56, 22 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

History2007, your comments are undermining your arguments. These are serious discussions about Wikipedia and objectivity. I suggest you value your role as a Wikipedia user more highly. —Wikipedian77 (talk) 00:07, 23 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

His name is Andre not Andrew

The name comes from the biblical region Bethsaida. Back then the sound W wasn't how it is today and so if you were in any of these places this is what the name "Andrew" would be wrote like "Andre" but you have to give it to the time and place they lived when the name originated plus the sound "w" came from "ou" but short for "w" in English. Here is how other reigions write "Andre" Aindrea, Aindreas or Anndra : Scottish Gaelic for males Aindréas, Aindriú, Aindreas : Irish Gaelic for males Anaru: New Zealand, for males - Maori transliteration of Andrew Andra : Scots for males Ander: Basque for males Anders: Danish, Norwegian, Swedish for males András, Endre: Hungarian for males Andraš Prekmurian for males Andraž: Slovene for males Andre or André: French for males Andrea: Albanian, Italian for males; Catalan, Croatian, Czech, Danish, English, Finnish, Galician, German, Hungarian, Icelandic, Norwegian, Spanish, Swedish for females Andreas: Austrian, Cypriot Greek, Danish, German, Greek, Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Welsh for males Andreea: Romanian for females Andrée: French for females Andrees: Older Dutch and seldom used Afrikaans for males Andrei: Moldovan, Romanian, Russian or Macedonian for males Andreia: Portuguese for females Andreina: Italian for females Andris: Latvian for males Andrej or Ondrej: Slovak (Slovakia), Croatian and Serbian, Slovene for males Andrey: Russian and Bulgarian for males (Cyrillic and thus often alternatively transliterated as Andrey for both); Romanian for males Andreja: Croatian, Slovene for females Andres: Estonian for males Andrés: Icelandic, Spanish for males Andreu: Catalan for males Andreus: Greek Andrew: English for males Andric: English for males Andries: Dutch and Afrikaans for males Andri: Icelandic for Males Andrii: Ukrainian for males Andrija: Croatian, Serbian for males Andris or Andrejs: Latvian for males Aindriú : Gaeilge for males Andrius: Lithuanian for males Andriy: Ukrainian for males Andrzej or Jędrzej: Polish for males Andrzeja: Polish for females; obsolete Ondřej: Czech for males Indri: Maltese for males In Albanian: Andrea, Andreu, André, Ndré, Ndreu, Andër, Andërs, only for males Antti : Finnish for males

so my conclusion is that we didn't have the right English speech back in the beginning of time for the name "Andrew" (English) was instead ("Andre"} Saint Andrew as we know it isn't but "Saint Andre" the "E" at the end messes with people and they believe their should be a finishing but their isn't needed one. here is why- Letter 'E' differs little from its derivational source, the Greek letter epsilon, 'Ε'. In etymology, the Semitic hê has been suggested to have started as a praying or calling human figure (hillul 'jubilation'), and was probably based on a similar Egyptian hieroglyph that indicated a different pronunciation. In Semitic, the letter represented /h/ (and /e/ in foreign words), in Greek hê became epsilon with the value /e/. Etruscans and Romans followed this usage. Although Middle English spelling used 'e' to represent long and short /e/, the Great Vowel Shift changed long /eː/ (as in 'me' or 'bee') to /iː/ while short /e/ (as in 'met' or 'bed') remains a mid vowel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.53.12.151 (talk) 09:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you are right. But it is your own research, and Wikipedia does not do that.--Toddy1 (talk) 19:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New article on The Way of St Andrews

The Way of St Andrews is a brand new article which needs some attention and linking to this article - and IMHO needs some of its material replaced with material from this article. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Doug. Ckruschke (talk) 21:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke[reply]

Andrew Greek name

A biased apologetic, 'common among Jews', he was Greek.

"The name "Andrew" (Greek: manly, brave, from ἀνδρεία, Andreia, "manhood, valour"), like other Greek names, appears to have been common among the Jews, Christians, and other Hellenized people of the region." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 (talk) 15:16, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for article expansion

"St Andrew" in the Encyclopædia Britannica, 9th ed., Vol. II, p. 20.

— $Llywelyn II$ 00:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Patron of : City of Manilla

This is incorrect. It cites a website's (etravelpilipinas.com) page (Philippine Heroes) about Manilla-born Andrés Bonifacio, which inaccurately claims Bonifacio was named for the patron saint of the city of Manilla, which is represented by the Immaculate Conception, not St. Andrew.

Andrés Bonifacio (as also stated on the Andrés Bonifacio Wikipedia article) was actually named according to a popular Philippine tradition of naming babies after the saint during which who's feast the child was born.

(KB)

Done

Older or Younger Brother of Peter

The article says that Andrew is the older brother of Peter. What is the evidence for this? The gospels do not indicate which is older. A quick google search suggested that Christians are not certain either. Is there some sort of church tradition being used to claim that Andrew is the older brother? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidMcP555 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 30 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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“No Hebrew or Aramaic name is recorded for him.”

I am very confused. In the first paragraph of the “Life” section, it reads, “No Hebrew or Aramaic name is recorded for him.” However, at the beginning of the article, it lists an Aramaic version of his name, “אַנדּרֵאוָס”. Is there or is there not an Aramaic name for him? Thank you. Plooyulmo (talk) 18:24, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Revert

there was a substantial number of martyrs in the early third century—see The Myth of Persecution. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]