Talk:Sabden

Yeppe Kneppe

Whoooooooooooooooo? Modern maps are much easier to read, and that should be Jeppe Knave! And the story is more complex than it currently reads, it's probably a bronze age burial cairn. See: Pastscape & this might be useful but I've not read it yet Jeppe Curtey Highwayman. I might get round to doing something with it later. --Trappedinburnley (talk) 22:54, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Badger Wells Water

I know my way around that particular part of the world very well. It seems highly unlikely that the course of the river has ever been significantly altered as suggested, however as it is sourced I've left it for now. Assuming that the suggested original route was straight down Stubbins lane (following the old Heyhouses township boundary), it would make no sense to move it to run along the hillside above the village! As this article shows (Sabden flooding problem) its current course presents a flood risk. In both the 1848 and 1893 OS maps as far I can tell it follows its current course. In the 1893 map I can see a weir at the top of Stubbins lane and feel that this is much more likely to have been a mill race for the Little Moor print works and/or the Smithy that used to be on the site of the car park between Sabden bridge and caravan site. Does the referenced author give further info?? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 21:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Anderoo165 - I note your addition of the Greenwood’s map ref in support of this claim. I agree that from this map it could be interpreted that the two rivers meet on the eastern side of the bridge. However it is at such a large scale that it is very difficult to be sure what it shows. Given the mapping technology of the time, the accuracy of these maps leaves a lot to be desired. In my opinion there is an obvious error in the position of Whins House. Although the earlier Yates map has the same issues when used for this purpose it appears to show a route closer to the current one. The source is useful for another part of the article so I’ve added a link and moved it. What exactly does the book say about it? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 19:48, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I also know the area extremely well and unlikely as it may appear, Badger Wells water did run down Littlemoor, it was part the western border of Pendle Forest. This was confirmed by 2 witnesses when commissioners were confirming the boundaries to divide the Pendleton commons into farmland,(sorry no dates) one witness describes it as flowing Southward into Sabden Brook. I have posted this other reference from p50 of Clifford Moorhouse's book and it was also in Dr Laycocks writings too. I have also found it on the 1818 Greenwoods map, where it runs down Littlemoor, and a later 1829 map. I know all about the flooding, I was instrumental in stopping it. There was indeed a weir of some description at the top of Wesley st and a large pipe which took water down to the printworks (within living memory).

"At the establishment of the Littlemoor Printworks in the 1790's the brook ran into Sabden Brook, somewhere near Sabden Bridge, flowing through the middle of Littlemoor. When Long Row (Wesley Street) was built the waste water was turned down the back of it, and in time has worn the deep channel it now runs through." This is a quote from page 50 of The Forgotten Valley CM 1970's book and is from an 1839 survey of Heyhouses...You may not know the little concrete footbridge just above the top of the street, it spanned the brook until 2012, when it was cast in the early 1960's, they stood the former/shuttering on milk kits in the brook, approx 3ft high. The brook has eroded down about 7 or 8 feet since then, this also shows in the wall on the far side, its way above the water level. This says to me it is not running on its ancient course, it is now causing all sorts of land slips and other problems. According to Dr Laycock the bridge at the bottom of Clitheroe road was constructed in 1777, at the time it only took the “ stream” which originates from above the Top Row,(now joins at the back of Wesley St.) and at the time there was no Whalley road, hence only the one bridge at the bottom of Wesley St. When Badgers Wells Waters was 'diverted' there was probably virtually no village, 'Whalley road', was maybe a few houses on the Pendleton side at the most and there were no houses on the lower southern side for certain, the Whalley road was non existant in 1818, the whole of Heyhouses being on the eastern side of the only road, bar 1 or 2 properties. As you also note in your opinion Whins house is in the wrong place....but at the time Whalley road and the Whins as they are now were both non existant, so you cannot say it is in the wrong place.

So in conclusion, I would like the Badger Wells Water piece to stay as it is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anderoo165 (talk • contribs) 19:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

IMO it is utterly incorrect, but you did reference it (which is more than can be said of much content on this site) so I don’t plan to remove it. However we have to be careful with local authors, errors in their works trend to be frequent. A lot tend to see folklore as the same thing a history.

I was in the village today, so took the opportunity to look at the old footbridge site. I’m positive the reason the water level has dropped is because of the disappearance of the weir that was just a few metres downstream. It has likely taken many thousands of years to erode that clough. I must also take issue with the logic employed here, if indeed the river has eroded a channel that quickly, the original must have been much bigger. And yet there is no trace of it? That’s a whole lot of work for back then. But our opinions are not needed here, we need sources to reference.

I see no reason to dispute the evidence of the witnesses. The 1848ish OS map shows that for a good part of its course north of the village, Badger wells water was the boundary between Pendleton (not in the forest) and Goldshaw Booth (in the forest). In that area it does generally flow south. Whether Heyhouses could be considered to be in the forest is highly debatable, but I have seen it claimed before. There is also the issue of whether the section through the village has always been Badger Wells water or was it previously known as Churn Clough brook? While digging around I found this which was an interesting read, if not entirely useful. [ https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/25042/page/6298]

I'm not sure what boundary the red and yellow line of Greenwood’s map signifies but it certainly isn’t the extent of the forest of Pendle. Read, Simonstone and Padiham where never part of the forest. However it does appear to follow the boundaries of the townships. The same OS map and the later one, show the boundary between Heyhouses and Pendleton leaves the river and follows the eastern side of Stubbins lane. Why, is a puzzle to me, but there are considerably more likely reasons than that was the original course of the river.

Finally it is Clitheroe Rd not Whalley Rd that concerns me regarding Whins House? Are you saying it was constructed after 1818 and the one marked on the map is a different Whins house?--Trappedinburnley (talk) 20:59, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Before 1904 the village was in seven different parishes

The statement “Before 1904 the village was in seven different parishes” is patently incorrect. Even today it only extends into areas formally in Pendleton, Read and Heyhouses with one building (2 & 4 Padiham Rd) in Newtown (previously Padiham). The question is, how incorrect is it?--Trappedinburnley (talk) 21:12, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

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hi,

Have you read the book 'The Buried' by Sharon Bolton. Mostly takes places in Sanden Lancs... might be worth adding (and commenting on reliability when it comes to geography & history) 2A02:A020:CC:3D25:E020:862A:EE5E:4DBE (talk) 07:27, 2 July 2023 (UTC)