Talk:Sabbatarianism

Calvin and Sabbatarianism

I deleted Calvin from the list of nonsabbatarians. Though he made some contradictory sounding comments re the Sabbath, I don't think you can include him as an example of this opinion. Here is a pro-Sabbath quote:

Moreover, let us realize that it is not only for coming to the sermon that the day of Sunday is instituted, but that in order that we might devote all the rest of the time to praising God. Indeed! For although he nurtures us every day, nevertheless we do not sufficiently meditate on the favors he bestows on us in order to magnify them…. But when Sunday is spent not only in pastimes full of vanity, but in things which are entirely contrary to God, it seems that one has not at all celebrated Sunday [and] that God has been offended in many ways. Thus when people profane in the manner the holy order which God instituted to lead us to himself, why should they be astonished if all the rest of the week is degraded? –From “The Fifth Sermon”, which, along with “The Sixth Sermon”, address the 4th commandment. Benjamin W. Farley, transl., John Calvin’s Sermons on the Ten Commandments (Baker, 1980; paperback reprint 2000)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jfhutson (talk • contribs) 13:50, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

What's done is done. Let the Calvinists be the best judge of that. But let's not be too highly influenced by rhetoric. As an Orthodox, I don't think even this sermon quote constitutes Sabbatarianism in itself. Mindfulness of Sunday worship, and keeping every day holy, are topics I have heard in Orthodox homilies as well, though with a different way of saying things. The Orthodox homilies were exhortations and encouragements, and it seems to me that that's just what Calvin was trying to do here in his sermon, in a Calvinistic manner. He makes no overt demands for specific action (or restraints) on Sunday here, as the Sabbatarians did. And those historical Sabbatarians are a far cry from the Sabbatarians of the present day. The historical context is one thing, but the associations brought about by the use of the single word "Sabbatarian" make it necessary to be very clear about what is implied, for Puritan Sabbatarianism is not like seventh-day at all. And Calvin was not Puritan Sabbatarian either. Evensteven (talk) 16:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Requested move, 29 June 2015

Non-Sabbatarianism → Sabbatarianism, which will result in the necessity of moving or deleting current page Sabbatarianism, a re-direct to Sabbatarian. Propose also to move Sabbatarian, currently a disambiguation page, to Sabbatarianism (disambiguation), along with updating re-directs appropriately.

"Sabbatarianism" and "Non-Sabbatarianism" are so closely related that they belong in one article, here, so they can be presented and understood in relation to each other. It's strange and incomplete to have the single existing article presenting an opposing side only, without anything like it presenting what it is opposing. Renaming as proposed better matches the goals of WP:COMMONNAME. Evensteven (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as proposer. Comment at discussion section below. Evensteven (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
2. Support. Nick Number (talk) 14:29, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Comment: The proposal purposely does not identify all the re-directs that may require touching up, as there may be various ways of accomplishing some of that. Only an essential few are mentioned. This keeps the proposal clear and manageable in discussion. The general topic of Sabbatarianism touches on terminology, some used more loosely and some more strictly, which can tend to confuse presentations of related material. Some clear definition and parameters for those terms will help introduce and present material better in many articles, which can link here for information. There is already material in other articles that can be incorporated here to present Sabbatarianism itself, and this can help unload that material from other places where it's not central. The non-sabbatarian material already present here is of relatively small size and needs cleanup anyway, so re-integrating the article will be a matter of work that needs doing anyway.

I would suggest one more detail: creating a new re-direct of Non-Sabbatarianism to this article. That way nothing gets lost. Evensteven (talk) 18:32, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment: After one day with nothing more from anyone, I'm taking that as a signal that there's little or no opposition or controversy with the proposal. I'll continue to look for comments soon, but if nothing shows in a day to two, I'll go ahead with the move and we can back it out later if need be. Evensteven (talk) 22:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• The redirects have been deleted to make way for the primary topic article. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:37, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposal implemented

The article has been moved, its lead updated, and the disambiguation page moved to its new location. Most to all redirects have been altered to reflect the new namespace structure. Thanks to @BD2412: who provided the requisite administrative support. Evensteven (talk) 00:09, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Picture

What does the picture have to do with the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ari1891adler (talk • contribs) 04:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The picture shows eleven commandments.--Nickdenuijl (talk) 15:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Sabbatarian origins

Can I just point out that Sabbatarianism in Far Eastern Europe has quite a significantly different origin from the rest of European Sabbatarianism. But I would be very interested if anyone knows of any studies comparing any cross-fertilization which might have existed between the two groups. Please message me if you do. Thanks. YuHuw (talk) 19:20, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

article seriously off-base

The lede is very confusing. If Sabbatarianism is taken to mean the necessity of meeting once a week, the Roman Catholic Church is as sabbatarian as anyone else. "Its historical origins lie in early Christianity, later in the Eastern Church and Irish Church,[2] and then in Puritan Sabbatarianism" is nonsensical. Frankly the article reads like a high school paper. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 23:23, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

agreed --2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:1501:3043:348C:DE40 (talk) 05:13, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand this is an old comment, but it was never addressed. To clarify, Sabbatarianism is not the necessity of meeting once a week - emphasis on "meeting" - as the OP was questioning. It is a full day sabbath observance. Meeting is only part of that. The quote that is referred to as "nonsensical" would certainly seem so if taken out of context. But, the entire lead makes clear that it is not simply meeting once a week. The very first sentence points out the definition: Sabbatarianism advocates the observation of the Sabbath in Christianity, in keeping with the Ten Commandments, followed by specific, defining detail the next sentence: a day of worship and rest (emphasis to point out the difference). In other words, it's a complete legalistic sabbath. If you go to church on Sunday, then go out to dinner, and head home to watch football, you're not a Sabbatarian. ButlerBlog (talk) 15:59, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Neutral point of view

Wikipedia standards require neutrality, reliance on authoritative and independent sources, disallowance of original research, and that articles reflect the relative prominence of opposing views. An encyclopedic article isn’t meant to make a theological case for whether “true” Sabbatarianism applies to first day or seventh day observance.

This latter seems the intention in parts of the article, or comes too close to appearing so. For example, the History section begins with citing John Nevins Andrews from a denominationally published work, more than once. Andrews writes from his own early Seventh-day Adventist view, which correct or not, isn’t the point in this section. Using him partakes more of original research than of reliance on authoritative and unbiased sources for the history of sabbatarianism.

Another example is that the Seventh-day Adventism section duplicates information already found in other Wikipedia article/s about the denomination. It includes theological details about its particular sabbatarian teachings that are not needed in a general article on sabbatarianism. TrueBluePencil (talk) 23:38, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

So think I. Too much duplicates about Seventh-day Adventist Church (there are a number of other Adventist groups), the same picture (same text) in the article Sabbath in seventh-day churches. To delete a part and add about other non-Adventist groups, like modern Judaisers (Hebrew Roots and others) or Sabbatarian Pentecostalists. List of modern Sabbatarian groups has added. DayakSibiriak (talk) 02:53, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Jesus worked on the Sabbath

The article could point out that Jesus worked on the Sabbath, as in when he healed the man with a shrivelled hand. YTKJ (talk) 20:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

which Protestant groups are non-Sabbatarian?

I mean, the way you define it? Which groups do not worship on Sunday or Saturday, and don't set a regular meeting time? It is dropped there at the end of the lead, and not mentioned again.--2607:FEA8:FF01:4B63:1501:3043:348C:DE40 (talk) 05:16, 27 December 2021 (UTC)