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Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain t/c 20:29, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ryō Kase → Ryo Kase – The subject's name appears to be commonly written without a macron in English, as shown by his official agency profile, his official Facebook page, his IMDB entry, and this Japan Times article. --DAJF (talk) 08:42, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Those books have the same problem as the newspapers, as they don't appear to use a single macron anywhere. Ebert spells "Ichirō" without a macron, and Roman spells Shidō Nakamura without a macron immediately after Mr. Kase, despite noting that the film credits him as "Shidou Nakamura". This is consistent with almost all of the other sources that have been provided here which do not specialize in discussion of Japanese cinema or Japanese anything, and therefore leave out the macron for convenience sake. Are we now going to move Nakamura Shidō II to Shido Nakamura because one apparently reliable source spells his name this way? Wikipedia policy, as has been quoted many times, is that unless fairly stringent criteria are met then we should use the macron -- Ebert and Roman apparently have as their policy not to use the macron. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:43, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawn elvenscout742 (talk) 06:01, 17 December 2012 (UTC) *Oppose - It needs to be pointed out that most of those "sources" conventionally avoid macrons, where Wikipedia conventionally favours them except in special cases. The fact is that his name is pronounced "Ryō", and the conventional romanization of his actual name (亮) is such. If we move this page based solely on a few sources that choose to spell his name in a particular way that contradicts Wikipedia policy, then why don't we move ALL the pages on similar topics? Every single Japanese person whose name has a long o or u and who has ever been mentioned in JT, etc., would therefore have to be moved. Wikipedia favours the macron except in special cases because it makes the name easier to read for people who know Japanese, and doesn't make it any more difficult for readers who don't. It's entirely possible that his passport, his official identification, spells his name as "Ryoh" or "Ryou" -- should we take this into account as well?? elvenscout742 (talk) 15:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • The "wikipedia policy" which applies here is WP:JTITLE, and it's an open-and-shut case: the sources show that the person evidently does not use a macron personally or professionally. There is no "wikipedia policy" that all Japanese words should have macrons on them. JoshuSasori (talk) 15:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just in passing, and for the benefit of Elvenscout742, if this (or any other) person's name is "亮", it is actually not possible that his (Japanese) passport will be printed as "Ryō", "Ryoh", or "Ryou", since these spellings are explicitly prohibited by the rules for how names are Romanized in Japanese passports. --DAJF (talk) 16:27, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Completely irrelevant discussion here, but I think "Ryoh" and "Ryou" are allowed: [1] It looks like you have to sign a disclaimer. JoshuSasori (talk) 00:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Most Japanese passports I have seen prefer to use "oh" for the long o, but Wikipedia doesn't follow that convention. I would like to see a citation for DAJF's "rules" for Japanese passports. I still think that his agency (not himself) having an English version of their website is no indication that the policy specifically applies here. Most Japanese companies outsource work like the production of English-language websites to freelance translators, and none of the above sources therefore qualify under WP:JTITLE except possibly Facebook, and I don't see why we should take a Japanese-language Facebook page that uses a total of 12 English words as a source for an English-language encyclopedia article. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:48, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The sources consistently point to "Ryo". Ryo Kase is a native English speaker. He was born in the USA. His romanized name was not chosen for him by a translation agency. All information in Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, not on your opinions about how Japanese people should write their names. The sources all say "Ryo". End of discussion. JoshuSasori (talk) 06:12, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for posting out-of-date information regarding Japanese passport rules, although it was just intended to be a "fyi" rather than being directly related to this move discussion. My source was the printed instructions that came with the application for Japanese passports, although I see now from the link that JoshuSasori posted that the rules have been relaxed since 2009, allowing applicants to fill in a special form if they wish to use non-standard Romanized forms such as "Ryou" and "Ryoh". --DAJF (talk) 06:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing I posted above is my opinion, and I have not made any normative statements about how Japanese "should" spell their names. I personally dislike "oh", and in real life I prefer when Japanese people with the name "亮" spell it with neither the macron or the "oh". But Wikipedia has a policy that favours macrons except in special circumstances. The sources that have been cited above (IMDb, Japanese Facebook pages, a dubious English translation of the website of his agency) are not reliable sources and they do not come directly from Mr. Kase, so they do not count as evidence that the non-macronned spelling is "the form personally or professionally used by the person". If what you say about Mr. Kase being a native English-speaker born in the USA is true, then there should be plenty of English sources in which he himself spells his name without a macron. If one such source can be found, I will change my vote. (The Facebook page using the non-macronned spelling doesn't count since, again, it is quite common practice to just leave it out sometimes for convenience, and the page not being written by him doesn't help.) elvenscout742 (talk) 13:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So you are asking us to accept that unknown to himself his staff have put his name on facebook and his official web page without a macron, and if we cannot bring up sources we must accept that his official web page and facebook page are a case of him being hoodwinked out of his desire to use a macron? This is becoming absurd, can you please stop reaching for ludicrous explanations. His name is spelt "Ryo". Enough of this silliness. JoshuSasori (talk) 14:55, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Which official webpage?? The Facebook page is in Japanese. I'm saying it's within the realm of possibility that even if they asked him about it he said "I don't care, just do whichever is easier". Wikipedia policy says that unless the person himself prefers the non-macronned spelling we should use it. I don't really care all that much about this topic, but your constantly ignoring my arguments and making personal attacks, without attempting to find any English-language sources directly linked to him is beginning to bother me. Do what you want with this article, I don't care.
Additionally, the Japan Times article may meet WP:RS, but WP:JTITLE clearly indicates that the only sources that count for overruling the use of the macronned spelling are encyclopedia entries and sources written by the person in question. The Japan Times also appears to have a policy of not using macrons, so using it as a source is turning Wikipedia policy on its head. We are supposed to use the macronned form except when the person in question uses another spelling; we are not required to find reliable sources that use a macronned form just because some sources use a non-macronned form. I also don't like the above insinuation that I do not understand WP:RS and am basing my argument purely on opinion. No one here has yet offered a single reliable source that indicates that Mr. Kase himself favours the non-macronned form. elvenscout742 (talk) 14:05, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As above, I am withdrawing my vote, not because I have been convinced that Mr. Kase has actively indicated that he prefers the non-macronned form, but because of the abusive bull-headedness I am receiving from the "support" side of this debate. But it seems to me that book is a photo collection and is in Japanese. Unless it has a quote from him regarding the romanized spelling of his name, it still doesn't count. elvenscout742 (talk) 23:14, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support I am withdrawing my oppose vote. I still think no valid argument has been made in favour of the move, since every one of the sources quoted (1) is in Japanese, (2) is not directly linked to Mr. Kase himself, (3) never uses macrons as a policy, or (4) translated by a freelancer completely unrelated to Mr. Kase. The other users involved in this debate have made questionable statements regarding Mr. Kase's birthplace/origins, and generally ignored my requests that they find more reliable sources that state that Mr. Kase specifically prefers the non-macronned spelling. Wikipedia policy is quite clear that we should use the macronned form unless the person himself, or an encyclopedia article, or his spokesperson, specifically prefers the non-macronned spelling. I have not yet seen any hard evidence of this, but in my background research on the issue I found that while he was born in Japan and has lived there most of his life, he was in fact raised in the US until the age of 7, and English is probably his first language. Under these circumstances, I am willing to guess that he is aware of the logic behind spelling differences for his name, and actively chooses to spell it without a macron. I am therefore withdrawing my oppose vote because had I known these things two days ago I just wouldn't have bothered opposing. I was merely responding to the refusal on the part of DAJF, Kauffner and JoshuSasori to cite any valid sources. I also hope this doesn't set a precedent that any time a western newspaper or magazine even mentions the name of a Japanese actor and forgets the macron, the Wikipedia page gets moved. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:01, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent>Comment Of the 7 actors on Anore's English site who have long os in their names, 2 (Rina Ohta and Kohki Hasei) use oh, and the other 5 all have no marker at all. Therefore, unless all five of the latter are native English-speakers raised in the US who actively oppose the use of the macron in their names, we can assume the translator of the website just left out the macron for his/her own convenience. This website is not evidence for Mr. Kase one way or the other, and I was right to point this out above. elvenscout742 (talk) 08:31, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Birthplace

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I was not familiar with this actor before randomly stumbling across the above move request (although I have seen most of his movies). User:JoshuSasori made a rather unfair personal attack against me in response to my posting my view regarding the need for reliable sources. He/she additionally made the claim that Mr. Kase was born in the United States and implied that English is his first language. I took this as fact, but then when examining the history of the page I noticed that User:DAJF had removed a somewhat poorly written but otherwise inoffensive paragraph about Mr. Kase's early life.[2]

I draw attention to the users involved, because they seem to have a particular set of ideas about this actor and his career that they are trying to force on this article, and are turning Wikipedia policy on its head in the process.

Biographies of living people need reliable sources for statements that may be remotely contentious. This is absolutely true, and I do not mind this policy being quoted. However, in this context it seems that an easily verifiable statement (that Mr. Hase was born in Yokohama, Japan) was removed, without any explanation as to how it is controversial. I have reinstated the statement, and added an obvious source ("Ryo Kase" "born in Yokohama" on Google[3] brought up a bunch of them, another being [4]). This statement is not contentious, so it seems inappropriate to remove it without giving a reason.

It was removed as unsourced bio. If you look through DAJF's edit history you will find that he/she does a fair amount of work at removing unsourced materials from biographies of living people. This was just one more of the same and not part of any grand conspiracy. You keep talking about wikipedia policy, surely you know that unsourced information in biographies of living people should be removed. Then you go on to say that, then you ask why it was removed. Stars are quite literally flying around my head as I try to get to grips with all of your various statements. It's true that I said he was born in the USA, that was a mistake; it seems he moved there just after he was born. However the birthplace is hardly as relevant as the fact that he lived in the USA for a large chunk of his childhood, and is a native speaker of English, hence he is hardly likely to have entrusted the spelling of his name to a translation company. JoshuSasori (talk) 06:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Potentially contentious unsourced material in biographies of living people should be removed. I quote Contentious [my emphasis] material about living persons (or recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. The material was not contentious, and therefore did not need to be removed. One example of unsourced material within the article right now is his date of birth -- should this be removed immediately? Or would it be better to leave it there until another source that contradicts it shows up? Is Mr. Kase likely to sue the Wikimedia Foundation if this information is incorrect? I apologize for not checking DAJF's edit history -- my only interaction with said user as far as I can remember has been on this talk page. Most Japanese people don't seem to care either way whether their name has a macron or doesn't, and probably wouldn't mind if a journalist, translator or anyone else decided to macronize or not for themselves. I have yet to see any evidence that Kase is any different, but for the reason that I don't care enough to keep arguing and it seems Kase doesn't actively campaign to have his name macronized I have stopped arguing this point. elvenscout742 (talk) 08:32, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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