Talk:Russell Henderson

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Requested move 2 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 22:14, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Russell Henderson → Russell Henderson (musician) – To vacate this name for use as WP:NOPRIMARY disambig page with additional entry pointing to Russell Henderson (convict). See also the discussion at WT:D#When primary topic has no article and secondary topic does. Mathglot (talk) 21:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Iffy★Chat -- 11:34, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There is no article for the convict, and pageviews for existing redirects to Matthew Shepard (compared to the musician) don't suggest there is a great deal of interest. The hatnote is more than sufficient. PC78 (talk) 22:38, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
PC78, can you please elaborate on your comment? In what way does the pageview results suggest to you that there is little interest in the convict? I don't see that the pageviews graph has anything to say one way or another about what people were searching for. If 90% of the people were searching for the convict, or only 10% were, wouldn't the pageviews graph look identical in each case? I can only bring one datapoint to bear on this: I searched for "Russell Henderson", and I was searching for the convict, being completely unaware there was a musician by this name. Mathglot (talk) 23:52, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's true that we don't know what people are expecting to find when they look up "Russell Henderson", so you'd be guessing either way. But we do know that existing redirects for the convict, Russel Arthur Henderson, Russell Henderson (murderer), etc., some of which have existed since as far back as 2004, get very few hits, less than one a day on average. So that doesn't suggest (to me) that that's what most people are looking for. Plus there is no seperate article, and so no real need to disambiguate the musician - if the murder article is what you want then the hatnote will get you there just as well as a dab page would. PC78 (talk) 01:12, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The fact that there is no article for the convict seems irrelevant to me, as this is a volunteer project, and the article simply may not have been written yet. Perhaps it should be: as far as notability, which adheres to a topic irrespective whether an article exists for it or not, an examination of the sources available in Books for that name (dropping various middle name namesakes) and paging forward through the pages of search results shows more sources for the convict than the musician (even ignoring the dupes in the top three spots).

In addition, we don't know what people have in mind when they search for "Russell Henderson", unqualified. The pageviews tool doesn't help in that regard, because Russell Henderson (musician) doesn't exist. We can, however, compare them on Google Trends, where there isn't enough data on any of the qualified terms; put in other words: there is no evidence that people use web search more for "Russell Henderson musician" (or, "pianist", or "jazz") any more than they do for "convict" or "murderer". And despite Wikipedia's high page rank, all of the top ten web results for "Russell Henderson" except one, are for the convict. Mathglot (talk) 23:55, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You're obviously more familiar with the murder case than I am, but bear in mind WP:CRIMINAL with regards to the notability of criminals. Also note that the musician was born in 1924 which means the bulk of his career will predate the internet, so there's an element of WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS in those Google results. PC78 (talk) 01:12, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for linking WP:CRIMINAL, I wasn't aware of that one. I looked at it, and under "Perpetrator" at first glance I assumed Russell has no chance of meeting criterion #1, because obviously Shephard was not a renowned national or international figure at the time; although ironically the attack turned him into a well known figure at the national level, but whether WELLKNOWN is another question. Otoh, Henderson does seem like it has a possibility of meeting criterion #2: there is definitely "sustained coverage", but I don't know if it meets the bar of "significant attention"; certainly not to the level of Seung-Hui Cho. Thanks also for the link to WP:SYSTEMICBIAS essay; in the sense you raise it, it seems like a kind of WP:RECENTISM but on a longer time scale. As more older newspaper and other archives continue to get digitized, I hope that the "pre-internet career" will be less and less of a bias factor. 09:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.