Talk:Ruminant

- Maybe I just don't explore enough Wikipedia pages, but this article is quite strange. A brief synopsis of the topic (thanks to those who contributed to it), and then a section on an irrelevant issue of whether the bible is in error when it refers to rabbits (note: not a "Ruminant"!) as an animal that "chews the cud". Two of the three external reference links in the article are links to religious apologetics (of rather poor quality) that essentially (after a bit of handwaving), conclude that "in a sense", or that "it would be hard to deny", that rabbits do chew the cud (because they eat their own poop) and so the bible is not in error. I don't see how the inclusion of this section can be defended as germane to the article topic. Rabbits are not ruminants, and so the question of whether they metaphorically "chew the cud" by eating poop so as to be consistent with what the bible states is irrelevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.192.79.247 (talk) 20:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Ruminants are the world's second biggest producers of methane, which is considered to be an extremelly efficient greenhouse gas when free in the atmosphere. Maybe there should be something on this topic in the article. See Natural gas and Methane.

Untitled

Ruminants contains different components to their digestive systems than monogastrics, it is made up of a mouth, oesophagus, crop, stomach, gizzard, small intestine, caecum, large intestine and anus.

-Oy, the above poster is talking about birds, and not ruminants! A bird's gizzard contains pebbles ingested to mechanically grind down food, because birds have no teeth to chew food in the first place, never mind a second time, as ruminants do!64.114.125.128 Rootlet (talk) 02:21, 27 December 2013 (UTC) 02:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Camels

Are we sure camels chew a cud? (Ruminate). My confusion lies with how Camels are apparently not kosher, yet they have cleft hooves, and here it's claimed they Ruminate. Is there a difference between being a Ruminant and chewing a cud? njaard 21:38, 25 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The glucose concentration in the rumen is vanishingly small (many many literature souces vouch for this). Rather, cellulose is broken down primarily into acetic acid, propionic acid and butyric acid in the rumen. Could someone with a better facility for the English Language please correct this asap. Please contact me if you would like to know more of the physiology of the rumen (studying this is part of my job). Otherwise, camels do chew cud. Some other mammals chew cud but are not strictly ruminants.(comments by User:Dalekmikey|talk)

Camels hooves are only partialy cleft, they need to be totally seperate to be kosher... maybe a GE camel could be ok? lol212.42.10.194 15:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Camelids are Pseudo-ruminants

Camels and other camelids (alpacas, llamas, etc) are technically "pseudo-ruminants" with three- (not four-) chambered stomachs, called C1, C2, and C3. Do camelids chew cud? Yes. When camelids spit at you, they are spitting their cud. Perhaps a separate wikipedia page about Pseudo-ruminants is required.^[1] (comments by User:AslanEntropy|talk)

Please refer to pseudoruminant - it could use good contributions! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AslanEntropy (talk • contribs) 17:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Form and Function of the Camelid Digestive System" (PDF). The Camelid Quarterly, 2005. Retrieved 12/27/2013. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

Ruminatant

The Colobini ruminate as well Black-and-white colobus, Red colobus and Olive Colobus (Procolobus), so do Red Kangaroos. Kersti Nebelsiek 00:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Religion

Here's just two objections to the recent change.

Objection #1: Here's a quotation from the cited article, Do Rabbits Chew the Cud?: Carles (1977) compared cows and rabbits and reached the conclusion that rumination should not be defined from an anatomical point of view (the presence of a four-part stomach), but rather on presence of an adaptation for breeding bacteria to improve food. On this basis he stated that "it is difficult to deny that rabbits are ruminants." In other words, some guy of dubious credibility says we should abandon the anatomical, scientific point of view in favor of one that is only concerned with the end result. Hey, while we're at it, maybe we can redefine people with weak bones as avians.

How is the modern English definition of ruminant a factor here? --Ed Brey 17:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Objection #2: When all else fails, blame the translation. According to the second cited article, Are Rabbits Erroneously Called Ruminants in the Bible?, 'chew the cud' is the English rendition of the Hebrew MA 'ALEH GERAH, which literally means "raising up what has been swallowed." Isn't it perfectly obvious that "raising up" means regurgitating in this context? How can anyone claim that reingesting droppings is somehow "raising them up"? They're not being raised up, they're going down a second time. The plain meaning of the text is unmistakable to anyone who reads it without preconceived notions of inerrancy.

How do you explain that the cecotrope goes down a second time without first somehow being raised up? At so you other claims, do you have any sources do back them up? The statement beginning with "The plain meaning of the text is unmistakable..." is an ad hominin attack that I'd ask you to retract; it basically says that anyone who doesn't see it your way is close-minded. --Ed Brey 17:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And so I'm reverting the article. 63.215.29.15 21:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your desire to improve the article and your examination and questioning of the sources, but how do you justify introducing unsourced material and other guideline violations as an improvement? I've reverted to the properly and sourced formatted version while the discussion continues. --Ed Brey 17:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd appreciate it if you put your responses at the end of my reply rather than inside it, as that increases readability.

For a single, simple topic, this is true, but for complex, multi-point topics like this, threaded comments help greatly in maintaining context. Do you have any ideas for a "best of both worlds"? --Ed Brey 17:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To your first objection: If you felt the English definition of the word "ruminant" wasn't a factor, you shouldn't have quoted an article that suggested it was.

I referenced the article because it provide insight into the meaning of the Hebrew word in question. --Ed Brey 17:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To your second objection: Are you referring to the rabbit's physical act of lifting the cecotrope before it swallows it? By that logic, if a rabbit ate some grass, excreted it out and I picked up the dropping, then I am "raising it up" and therefore chewing my cud. Clearly, the author of the passage wasn't talking about lifting it up with hands or teeth, but raising it up through regurgitation. Why do I say this is clear? Because it's the simplest explanation that best fits the context of the passage.

I don't think that there is any dispute that the Hebrew word deals with reingestion by the same organism (versus your example of two organisms). However, you assertion that the method or raising should be takign narrowly could use less subjective justification than "simplest explanation". Could you elaborate? --Ed Brey 17:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As for being guilty of engaging in ad hominem attacks...hmm. I said that "the plain meaning of the text is unmistakable to anyone without preconceived notions of inerrancy." I think the gist of that remark is true; you've certainly not convinced me otherwise. However, I probably should have said "the plain meaning of the text is fairly clear in my opinion," so, okay, I apologize.

Personally, I think having no sources is far better than having bad sources. I also think that sourcing is unneccessary for something as perfectly straightforward as this. Rabbits don't chew their cud; Leviticus 11:6 says they do; therefore, the Bible is wrong. Who do I need to quote? The Scriptural reference speaks for itself.

I appreciate your desire to scrutinize the reliability of the sources, since reliable sources are so important to Wikipedia. What do you see as the pros and cons of each of the sources? --Ed Brey 17:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But let's skip to the end of this debate, shall we? Apparently, you're not going to tolerate an article on ruminants that says the Bible is wrong. I'm certainly not going to tolerate an article on ruminants that says the Bible is right. I strongly doubt there's any diplomatic way to phrase the facts that will please either of us. So let's just delete everything about religion from the article. This is an article on ruminants, after all, not an article on ruminants in the Bible. 209.247.5.49 23:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm open to whichever view(s) the evidence supports, and I would hope you are too. A NPOV solution is always possible (see examples); content removal is not the best answer. --Ed Brey 17:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unbelievable. Right after I suggest we end the debate, I stumble across the perfect reply to your entire argument. I know it's hypocritical of me to keep going when I said we should shut up, but this is so elegantly flawless I have to share it.

The third chapter of Christopher Hitchens' book God is not Great is entitled "A Short Digression on the Pig; or, Why Heaven Hates Ham." On the subject of pigs, he says, "It is not unknown for them to eat their own young and even their own excrement..."

You suggest that "chews the cud" (MA 'ALEH GERAH) in Leviticus 11:6 should include the shit-eating behavior of rabbits. If that were true, it should also include the shit-eating behavior of pigs. But in the very next verse, Leviticus 11:7 explicitly says that a pig "does not chew the cud" (MA 'ALEH GERAH). Therefore, your argument collapses.

There is a refutation for this argument. If you'd be so kind to rephrase the argument in more precise and less offensive language, I'd be happy to provide it. --Ed Brey 17:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've made my point as clear as I can, so I'm going to try and refrain from editing the article or this Talk page any more. I may not even look at it again for awhile, so I won't be tempted to keep blathering. 209.247.5.49 12:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having a lot of trouble finding ANY scientific basis for this "rabbits eat their own feces" thing. It seems to be regurgitated (ha! ha!) on countless Christian-apologist Web sites, but the only scientifice material extant seems to be on, er, rats and shrimp. So are rats now kosher? I'm confused! Edited article to clarify (a) that lagomorphs purportedly eat their own poop (in the absence of any actual proof), and (b) that this hasn't apparently been proven by anybody of note. The excessively dainty "method used by lagomorphs" is, well, silly. If rabbits are kosher because they (theoretically) swallow their half-digested poop-food, then just up and say it, people. --66.129.135.114 15:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For the science behind rabbit dropping reingenstion, see the references in Cecotrope and Rabbit. --Ed Brey 18:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Ruminantia?

Never mind previous edit, rereading text, it is clear that not all ruminants are ruminatia, so makes sense for two articles. Removing merge tags. Montanabw^(talk) 20:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think some of the text still refers to the taxon; for example the following sections: "Classification", "Abundance, distribution, and domestication", and "Ruminant physiology". I think some of the papers used here use the phrase "ruminant" to mean the taxon, adding to the confusion. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 18:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Which microbes?

The article should say more about the microbes involved in the digestion, as "bacteria, protozoa and fungi" is a bit too general. And I think archaea are missing here. Icek (talk) 07:07, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Diagram?

I think a diagram would help make this article much clearer. does anyone know where to get one? Nacnud89 (talk) 06:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replaced:

"Almost all the glucose produced by the breaking down of cellulose and hemi-cellulose is used by microbes in the rumen, and as such ruminants usually absorb little glucose from the small intestine. Rather, ruminants' requirement for glucose (for brain function and lactation if appropriate) is made by the liver from propionate, one of the volatile fatty acids made in the rumen.^{[citation needed]}"

With:

Only small amounts of glucose are absorbed from dietary carbohydrates. Most dietary carbohydrates are fermented into VFAs in the rumen. The glucose needed as energy for the brain and for lactose and milk fat in milk production, as well as other uses, comes from non-sugar sources such as the VFA propionate, glycerol, lactate and protein. The VFA propionate is used for around 70% of the glucose and glycogen produced and protein for another 20% (50% under starvation conditions). ^[1] ^[2]

Which is a stricter summary of what the two sources say that this article mainly relies on.

Another good source is "Digestion: The Fermentative Processes" in Textbook of Veterinary Physiology by Cunningham and Klein. Fernquestjon (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ William O. Reece (2005). Functional Anatomy and Physiology of Domestic Animals, pages 357-358 ISBN 978-0-7817-4333-4
^ Colorado State University, Hypertexts for Biomedical Science: Nutrient Absorption and Utilization in Ruminants

Suggestion: Redirect or merge with Ruminatia

Ruminatia redirects to the Peccary page. Ruminatia is a suborder of mammals and should redirect to this page, or this page should be retitled to "Ruminatia" and "Ruminant" should redirect here.^[1] -AslanEntropy

References

^ "Free Online Dictionary".

Ruminants and Climate Change Objections

This section of the article is fairly ignorant of the role of ruminants in nature. While commercial farming has most definitely contributed to climate change, it is not the fault of ruminants. For millions of years, ruminants have roamed the earth. If left up to their natural instincts ruminants, in the natural cycle, actually improve the land and capture carbon in the very grasses they are eating. Regenerative farmers have proven, very successfully, that when ruminants are managed correctly to mimic their natural instances they build soil health, make grasslands flood, erosion, and drought-resistant, and are carbon natural/negative.

Commercial farming has forced ruminants, like cows and sheep, into an unnatural environment to try and force more production out of them in a quicker timeframe. Time = Money. They also feed them feed they were never meant to eat like silage or grain. For an animal that is a large mobile sauerkraut vat, feeding them a large amount of already fermented feed or grain upsets the rumen cycle and causes things like excess methane production.

This section should be updated to show the difference between commercial ruminates and wild/regeneratively managed ruminants.

To repeat what someone told me when I first joined Wikipedia back in 2008 - Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit (smile) ;) I hope you have a chance to improve the article some time when you're not too busy. Good luck! Cougroyalty (talk) 14:08, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Form and Function of the Camelid Digestive System" (PDF). The Camelid Quarterly, 2005. Retrieved 12/27/2013. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

[2] William O. Reece (2005). Functional Anatomy and Physiology of Domestic Animals, pages 357-358 ISBN 978-0-7817-4333-4

[3] Colorado State University, Hypertexts for Biomedical Science: Nutrient Absorption and Utilization in Ruminants

[4] "Free Online Dictionary".

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