Jump to content

Talk:Rum and Coke/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

Notes

"Original Cuba Libre"

Bacardi claims they were the original rum in Cuba Libre (see the Bacardi article and the quote from Bacardi in this article) but the article maintains Havana Club was the original. I am not changing it, perhaps it ought to be unless someone provides a citation for Havana Club. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.21.76.160 (talk) 17:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I serve these drinks at my bar regularly...

Seems to have become something of a craze there. I found this article highly informative, but it needs more references.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 09:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Mencken quote

Seems to me it would be prudent to remove the boorish and disparaging H. L. Mencken quote. Any objections?69.255.21.213 21:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It's relevant to where the drink came from: clearly Mencken didn't think of it as Cuban, or a Cuba Libre. I have edited to this effect. Does anyone have a copy of the Gentleman's Companion where they can check whether Baker refers to the drink as a Cuba Libre or rum and coca-cola? If it's rum and coca-cola in the Gentleman's Companion (30s), The American Language (20s) and the Andrews Sisters song (40s), I would consider rewriting the whole piece beginning "Rum and coca-cola was a well-known drink in the US in the early 20th century..." What do others think?

I object to the people of my home region being referred to as "troglodytes". 66.173.143.210 (talk) 12:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Recipe

I changed the recipe in the infobox to the IBA specified one, since it's an IBA infobox.

There is a conflicting recipe given under "Preparation." I think this should be sourced or removed. I've never seen anyone prepare a cuba libre this way. Rees11 (talk) 16:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Pop culture

Please read Wikipedia:"In popular culture" articles before restoring the pop culture trivia. At the very least this material needs to be sourced. Rees11 (talk) 18:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I recall that Tom Cruise's character in the movie Cocktail is stymied by a woman/patron that orders a Cuba Libre. Although not very important it does serve as an example of the esoteric or archaic nature of Cuba Libre, now almost always called a rum and coke. Using the term Cuba Libre tends to obfuscate what you really want. 74.0.243.18 (talk) 20:28, 3 May 2010 (UTC)ccusick

Requested move (23 January 2011)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. I think the consensus here is that the 'Cuba Libre' is not a 'Rum and coke' and that a second article needs to be created. This may involve splitting the current article which any editor is free to do. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:48, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Cuba Libre → Rum and coke — "Cuba Libre?" You've got to be kidding me. It's called a rum and coke, this is common knowledge.--Wicka wicka (talk) 00:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Coke should be capitalized if moved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.66.180.54 (talk) 02:45, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Comment: Use English doesn't apply to proper nouns. Should we move Mojito to "A little wet" because that's what it means in English? - Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 00:46, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
That's not what I meant at all. Mojitos are still called "mojitos" even by people speaking English. My understanding was that "Cuba Libre" was the Spanish name for the drink that is called in English "rum and Coke". If this incorrect, the article as written certainly doesn't make that clear. Powers T 03:34, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose the move. There is a difference between a Rum & Coke and a Cuba Libre. A Rum & Coke is just that, rum and coke. possibly with a wedge of lime. A proper Cuba Libre has 1 part fresh lime juice, 2 parts rum, 3 parts coke and a wedge of lime. These days the two names are used interchangeably but that does not mean the Cuba Libre does not exist, it is simply the fault of modern bars calling a Rum & Coke a Cuba Libre - Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 00:39, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Are you suggesting that we should create a separate article for each drink, then? It seems to me that a single article on all of the variations would be sufficient, and that article should take the most generic name. Powers T 01:38, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There's no rationale in the nomination other than "common knowledge". The Andrews Sisters notwithstanding, the name of the drink that is encyclopedically notable is "Cuba Libre" (read the article and the sources). And two asides: is this an ENGVAR issue and is there any evidence that "Rum & Coke" is more common than "Cuba Libre" as a name for the drink discussed in the article (and not just a descriptive)? — AjaxSmack 03:07, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: oppose the move. "Cuba Libre" name came first, and includes the lime juice and wedge, "Rum and Coca-Cola" was from the 1940s, made famous from the American song, and usually includes a lemon, not lime wedge and no juice. --Funandtrvl (talk) 04:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
There's a link to the article, see the "[1]" with the arrow after it, in my note above? You're always welcome to read it, and then feel free to judge for yourself. --Funandtrvl (talk) 06:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment - that's a press release by Bacardi, thus not exactly an independent source that would allow to distinguish Cuba Libre orders from Rum and Coke ones, and does not provide real evidence for the numbers claimed. How did Bacardi arrive at these estimates? What were the inclusion/exclusion criteria?--70.80.234.196 (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it's a press release, but the point is that it was called "Cuba Libre" since 1900, and according to what others mentioned here, it's an official IBA cocktail, whereas "Rum and Coke" is not. This article shouldn't be renamed; if anything, Rum and Coke should have its own article, because the way it's made isn't the same as the Cuba Libre, and the "Rum and Coca-Cola" name probably caught on in the USA in the 1940's, after the song became the #1 hit. --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:14, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Just because rum and coke has more hits on Google, doesn't really matter, since inaccuracies often get more hits. Case in point-- here, here (which is incorrect) has 927 million hits, whereas hear, hear (which is correct) has 544 million hits. --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment - but "here, here" is not the name of anything, just a common mispelling of an expression. "Rum and Coke", while not the original name for the drink, is now commonly used. Just like most people don't say thou instead of you anymore. Or, a slightly better analogy might be french fries (North American English) vs chips (British) (people still use both, but the populations of the US and Canada outnumber those of the UK and the other colonies, so, in effect, WP:COMMONNAME would always be in favor of US usage). Perhaps even better as an analogy would have been Ursa Major vs the Big Dipper but, apparently, those are two separate articles, which is what might end up happening here.--70.80.234.196 (talk) 00:41, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Then why are you opposing? We clearly need a new page because rum and coke is distinct from Cuba Libre and the former is also a far more common term. Wicka wicka (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the opposition is to "Cuba Libre" being renamed and moved. Maybe the template should be changed instead to "split" Rum and Coke from the article, otherwise it's very confusing to what this section is about. --Funandtrvl (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anyone have a source for "Coke and Sugar"?

I have searched for a source confirming that this drink is also called a "Coke and Sugar" and haven't been able to find one at all. The only thing that comes up is the fact that Coke in the USA is made with corn syrup, and Coke in other countries is usually made with real sugar. Does anyone know the etymology of "Coke and Sugar" or have a source for it? Thanks, --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:30, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Good idea, thanks --Funandtrvl (talk) 19:56, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Local variations

I'm romanian and I never heard of Cuba Libre containing whiskey and/or lemon juice. If anything, the most common variant is just with rum and coke, without the lime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.25.105.173 (talk) 17:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we please just get rid of the "local variations" section? It's never going to be exhaustive or authoritative. Rees11 (talk) 19:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
"A virgin Cuba Libre is a Cuba Libre without the rum." That's called a Coke. --MicahBrwn (talk) 21:57, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Just like a Cuba Libre without the lime is a rum and coke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.164.201 (talk) 21:23, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

White Rum?

Have to take issue with this. In my experience it is mostly ordered with Capt. Morgan or another SPICED rum, not white. 72.209.63.226 (talk) 00:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

That has been my experience as well. I've usually heard it called "cap and coke" for that reason. TaintedMustard (talk) 23:23, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Cuban wet-your-whistle crisis

I've read that Cuba doesn't sell Coca-Cola. If this is true, where do they import the drink from to make the Cuba Libre? Or do they use off-brand or homebrew colas? --The_Iconoclast (talk) 12:13, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Ingredients

The traditional Cuba Libre from Cuba does not contain gin or bitters (I note that you listed it as optional), and I have never, in my experience bartending and relations with Cubans, had anything different. Perhaps this addition of the juniper-flavor based liquor is a late addition, but it is sure to overwhelm the sweetness of the rum. Also, many Cubans ask for a "mentirita" (a little lie) instead of a Cuba Libre (free Cuba). This is because, they reason, Cuba will never be free. --Tuttobene 00:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Where I come from Cuba Libre is usually mixed with a 'sprinkling of lemon juice' along with the lime-wedge. - 21:05, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Whats that written about shaking Coca Cola and straining in a cocktail glass? This drink is an highball... - 21:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Under 'Preparation' it says: Pour a 3:1 mixture of Coca-Cola and rum. However, in the infobox the IBA specified ingredients are 2 parts Cola and 1 part rum. Somewhat glaring, that one. --Radioflux 16:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, it seems someone responded to your observation by randomly changing the infobox to 3 to 1 instead of checking IBA! Isn't Wikipedia great? Anyway I checked IBA and it clearly says 2 to 1. So I changed it back. --Horoball 19:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

At the bottom of the table on the right is a section with notes that says a wedge of pineapple and 3 cherries, which I've never heard of, and directly conflicts with the IBA recipe, so I'm going to remove it. Castun (talk) 21:28, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

New picture

Can someone get a new picture to put at the top? This a popular drink, and well the current picture is blown up from something small. It's low quality and has more artifacts then the Smithsonian. 98.244.101.198 (talk) 07:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Rum can coke not same as Cuba Libre

Rum and coke is a very common and traditional Anglo-Saxon drink, popular particularly in the navy. It is not the same as Cuba Libre, which includes lime. The origins may or may not be related. At most Cuba Libre could be called a form of Rum and Coke, not the other way around.

On a similar theme, the Andrews Sisters "Rum and Coca-Cola" is about Rum and Coca-Cola, obviously, clearly not about the ingredients of Cuba Libre.Royalcourtier (talk) 10:01, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Rum and Coke/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 00:07, 16 August 2018 (UTC)


Opening statement

For replying to Reviewer comment, please use  Done,  Fixed, plus Added,  Not done,  Doing..., or minus Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. I will be crossing out my comments as they are redressed, and only mine. A detailed, section-by-section review will follow after this and my first comment (Referencing). –Vami_IV† 00:07, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Referencing

I have but one problem with the citations on this article: Cite book syntax is repeated for several books. The solution here is to remove a single instance of syntax for the cited books to a "References" or "Bibliography" section and using a short-form citation of your choice.

History

There's nothing especially inspiring about the prose in this section, but it does the job. Here's what I found off with it:

  • It is associated with the heavy U.S. presence in Cuba following the Spanish–American War of 1898; Currently?
  • It is was associated with the heavy U.S. presence in Cuba following the Spanish–American War of 1898; the drink's traditional name, "Cuba Libre" (Free Cuba), was the slogan of the Cuban independence movement. The semicolon here is an error; I suggest replacing it with "1898, but the drink's original name..." Alternatively, I'd roll the first part of that sentence into the previous. (It became associated with the heavy U.S. presence following the Spanish-American War in 1898 as Coca-Cola was imported into Cuba for the first time.)
  • Starting in 1940, the United States established a series of outposts among the British West Indies to defend against the German Navy. Are you referring to this?
  • Their presence created cross-cultural demand The American or German one?
    • [...], with American servicemen and the locals developing tastes for each other's products. oh.
      • Suggestion: The American presence created a cross-cultural demand, as servicemen and locals developed tastes for each other's products.
  • In 1943, [...] and In 1945, [...]. Two instances of a sentence starting with "In [YEAR]" in a row. Combine?
  • (plagiarized by Morey Amsterdam) Expand on this. Any specific (plagiarized) work or date of that plagiarized?

Popularity and reception

  • Bacardi estimates that it is the second most popular alcoholic drink. Ever? In a given category? The last sentence was specific where this is not.
  • Consider breaking the second half of the second paragraph into its own paragraph. It's not a negative reception, but an observation, and has an independent citation from the rest of the paragraph to support it.

Lead

  • [...] and traditionally lime juice on ice. Traditionally, the cola ingredient is Coca-Cola ("Coke"), [...] Two "traditionally"s in a row.
Thanks Vami IV! I've taken care of most of these edits. The book citations are updated. In "It is associated with the heavy U.S. presence...", the intended sense is the origin is associated with the U.S. presence, so I hope that clears it up. I removed the semicolon entirely and split into two sentences. The sources don't specify whether the U.S. presence was associated with the Destroyers for Bases Agreement, so I don't know if it's wise to link that. And yes, it was the American presence that created cross-cultural demand. I have expanded the section on the song "Rum and Coca-Cola". As for the popularity section, I split (and expanded) the final lines from the paragraph. However, the source doesn't offer any more specifics about Bacardi's estimation of the drink's popularity, it just says "Bacardi calls it 'the second-most-popular drink in the world.'" Let me know if you see anything else that should change.--Cúchullain t/c 17:14, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Could you find a way to combine the two sentences (Bacardi estimates...)? It's the only thing keeping the article from passing. –Vami_IV† 18:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Done. Thanks, Vami!Cúchullain t/c 18:55, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

GA Progress

Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recent edits

I reverted some recent changes introduced here. First, the style edits were unnecessary, the form "U.S." and the form "20th century" are both fine as long as it's consistent, as is using a single space after the period - in fact, the edits made the space formatting inconsistent. Additionally, I removed some tags that were added, as without explanation here I could not tell what they were asking for. "It subsequently became popular across Cuba, the United States, and other countries" seems totally clear to me (and is sourced in the article body). The line about drink critics in the intro is a summary of text that's cited clearly in the article body. I'm also not sure how "In the early 20th century the cocktail, like Coca-Cola itself, was most popular in the Southern United States" could be any clearer - the source says that like Coca-Cola, the cocktail was initially most popular in the South.--Cúchullain t/c 18:50, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 5 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved (page mover nac) Flooded with them hundreds 17:19, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Rum and Coke → Cuba libre – A move discussion was held on this talk page, and the consensus was to leave it at "Cuba libre" instead of moving it to "Rum and Coke". The page was later moved, against consensus, without further discussion. It should be moved back to "Cuba libre" unless and until a new consensus is reached that it should be moved. Kendall-K1 (talk) 23:47, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose revert to Cuba libre per WP:COMMONNAME. So, interesting case. This article is about both drinks, which are so similar it's probably not worth having separate articles (but if it is, that's a separate discussion, and there would be no title issue to resolve). As it is, the two drinks share one article and we have to decide which is the most common name used to refer to both of these drinks combined. I think Rum and Coke is it, obviously (15M ghits vs like 134k for Cuba libre), but if consensus is not reached here I agree the unilateral move to "Rum and Coke" should be reverted. --В²C ☎ 02:08, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Leaning Oppose in favour of splitting the article, or better distinguishing "Cuba libre" from generic "rum and coke". Discussion above contains a lot of evidence that not all "rum and coke" is "Cuba libre". Further, I do not believe that "rum and coke" is well enough defined to be called a proper name. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:54, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
On re-reading, I see you only did (2). On (2), Cúchullain is saying it was no so long ago, with so many edits under the bridge, that it is too late, so maybe we will have to just chide him for not reading the talk page more carefully. Not a net chide of course, because he deserves a lot of credit for the actual article improvement. Fifty points for the improvements, but deduct two for the post-RM unilateral rename. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose, on a few grounds:
  • First, I didn't notice there had been a previous discussion seven years ago until after I'd moved it and begun rewriting it with new sources. Since that time, the article has been totally rewritten, and gone through and passed Good Article review. It's an entirely different article than it was, and some of the things claimed in the last RM don't hold up to the sources now cited. As the move was a year ago, the present title is the stable title.
  • Second, on its merits, "Rum and Coke" is the better title. It's by far a more WP:COMMONNAME ([2] vs. [3]). It's also more encompassing: some sources claim that a drink must have lime to be a real "Cuba Libre". However, "rum and Coke" can refer to a drink without or with lime. In the previous discussion, several !votes claimed that a "Cuba Libre" has lime and a "Rum and Coke" has none, but this isn't true. As shown by the sources here, a "rum and Coke" may include lime. Additionally, a "Cuba Libre" may imply a drink with Cuban rum, although the drink has been common with other types of Rum for many decades - cf. the 1943 Trinidadian song "Rum and Coca-Cola".
  • That said, there's no need to spin off a new article for the Cuba Libre. It's the same drink, and the history would be exactly the same as what's written here. The sources don't support splitting the content into two articles.
Oh, and to further muddy the distinction, some sources that use "Cuba Libre" don't include lime. We may as well go with the WP:COMMONNAME.--Cúchullain t/c 13:48, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
My heart sure isn't in a split. Dark vs light rum? Lime or not? Branded or generic cola? I don't like the appearance of a proper name "Rum and Coke". How about Rum and cola, with a "Cuba Libre" featuring prominently as an early section. Is Coke (cola) (not the primary topic) really critical, can other brands be used? Should Rum and Pepsi cola be on another page? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:55, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
It’s not about what you don’t like (WP:IDONTLIKEIT. It’s about the name most commonly used to refer to the topic of this article. That topic is the drinks most commonly known as “Rum and Coke”. Don’t shoot the messenger. —В²C ☎ 04:00, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Hey I am not shooting anyone. Most commonly known as “Rum and Coke”? But the sources are using title case styling. It is not clear that they mean "Coke(TM)" or "coke", when their house style renders both identically. It's not necessarily a simple question. I'd like to hear from Cúchullain, a titling-knowledgeable local-topic-expert. I follow the authorism philosophy and upweight opinions of actual authors. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:58, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Options:
Rum and coke;
Rum and cola.
Looking through the current references, I am NOT seeing a lot of "coke" or "Coke", but am seeing a lot of "cola".
google ngram shows a plurality, not a majority, using "Coke" over "coke" or "cola"
ghits returned "rum and coke" about 906,000; "rum and cola" about 108,000
This looks like a case of conflict between crude source counting and quality sources. A rationale might be that quality sources avoid the trademark, and also go for old material that pre-dates the Coke trademark.
Quite possibly, "Rum and Coca-cola" has better source-based support than "Rum and Coke". I think the title should be "Rum and cola" (non-trademark descriptive name), with a large section on "Cuba Libre" (proper name).
I note that the article sourcing is very Cuba specific. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:08, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
My opinion, based on the research for this article and my own experience, is that the drink is called a "rum and Coke" regardless of what rum or cola is used. And it seems that "Coke" is usually capitalized even if "rum" is not. There are other variants: "rum and Coca-Cola", "Coke and Rum", occasionally "rum and cola", etc. but that's less common. And occasionally someone might request a different cola; "Rum and Diet Coke"/"rum and Diet" is fairly common, but for historical reasons, "rum and Pepsi", etc., are uncommon. You can walk into almost every liquor bar in the English-speaking world - and in many non-English-speaking countries and order a "rum and Coke".
A lot of quality sources use "Cuba Libre" because they're talking about the history, and that was the historical name for the drink - confusingly, the early "Cuba Libre" did not necessarily contain lime. Modern recipe books also frequently use "Cuba Libre" but generally call for lime as well as Cuban-style rum, sometimes while claiming that it's not a "real" Cuba Libre without the lime. "Rum and Coke", on the other hand, can refer to any drink that mixes Coke with any type of rum, including both limeful and limeless versions. The reason the drink is so common is that those ingredients are ubiquitous and can be mixed pretty much however without spoiling the drink. As Wayne Curtis says in one of the sources cited here, "It can be made heavy or light on rum, with rum that’s either light or heavy. If you have a lime to add a bit of citrusy zest to a rum and Coke, wonderful. If not, no matter."
Anyway, that's my two cents. In my opinion, either "Rum and Coke" or "Cuba Libre" are good names for the topic, but the former is more common and more broadly inclusive of variants.--Cúchullain t/c 22:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
I agree with all of that, except you didn’t answer my point: The higher the quality of the source, the less likely they are to capitalise the c in “Rum and coke”. Start with the current references. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:55, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Of the current sources, Betancourt, Coulombe, Curtis, Gjelten, Wonderich, Wilson, and Patterson capitalize “Coke”; “Kingwell” decapitalizes “Coke” and the others don’t mention it, or I don’t have access right now. Of the sources, Curtis, Coulombe and Gjelten are the strongest.--Cúchullain t/c 14:58, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
I can see inside two: Curtis, and Gjelten. They use, as you say, "rum and Coke". That's good enough. Support "Rum and Coke". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:47, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Isn't a Cuba Libre a Rum and Coke that has lime juice?

From https://www.thespruceeats.com/cuba-libre-recipe-759291 This simple mixed drink is similar to a rum and Coke, but the addition of fresh lime juice lightens up the mix and cuts through the sweetness of the cola. The lime is the single element that defines the Cuba Libre as a separate drink Зенитная Самоходная Установка (talk) 05:00, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Rum_and_Coke/Archive_1&oldid=1137165791"