Talk:Rudolf Koppitz

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Citations

Contributor Hoary on 01 December 2008 made edits to the "Notes" section of this article because: "neither answers.com nor wikipedia.org is an acceptable source."

At the time of writing the article on Rudolf Koppitz the available body knowledge that existed on the photographer could only in part be found on Answers.com's Photography Encyclopedia and other foreign language Wikipedia sites. Without contributions from these sites the article on Rudolf Koppitz would have been incomplete. Also, the information contained in the Answers.com and foreign language Wikipedia citations were as thoroughly checked and verified for integrity and quality using third party sources from the information available at the time. Removing the Answers.com and foreign language Wikipedia citations from the article on Rudolf Koppitz would fail to recognize the unoriginal work contained in the article and would be a violation of academic integrity. Please discuss the appropriateness of the Answers.com and foreign language Wikipedia citation but please, do not remove them as doing so would fail to recognize the original works of others.

--A. Poinçot (talk) 18:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Verifiability, a policy page, states: Articles and posts on Wikipedia, or other websites that mirror Wikipedia content, may not be used as sources. Like it or not, that's clear.

What's not entirely clear to me is what you want to do.

In the middle of the paragraph above, you seem to say that the de:WP, cs:WP and about.com pages are valuable and appear to be extensively sourced, and that you verified for yourself that the sourcing is genuine (that the claimed sources are indeed sources). If this is so, then yes, normal (outside-Wikipedia) academic convention would demand an acknowledgement of the de:WP, cs:WP and about.com pages (and perhaps also acknowledgement of the sources that these cited). However, Wikipedia isn't academia, and its authors do not expect credit for their work. If for a particular assertion you're using an inherently suspect source (A) that cites a credible source (B), and you investigate and find that (A) has indeed cited (B) correctly, then you can cite (B) directly and skip mention of (A).

Moreover, you say that the available body knowledge that existed on the photographer could only in part be found on Answers.com's Photography Encyclopedia and other foreign language Wikipedia sites. That pretty clearly indicates that this material, or anyway part of it, is not sourced, or anyway not sourced to materials that you can access. Well then, that's out. If you really believe that the information is true, you can leave it in, unsourced, for the short term, in the hope that an interested and energetic reader/editor will be able to back it up (or correct it) authoritatively. What you can't do is imply that its inclusion in de:WP, cs:WP or about.com renders it more credible.

I note that in your series of edits that followed your reversion of my own edit, you restored most of the minor improvements that I made, as well of course as improvements of your own. I recognize that you're doing excellent work on this article and don't at all want to discourage you from continuing. I think it's highly likely that there is more material on Koppitz: for example, amazon.com lists Birgus, Czech Photographic Avant-Garde, 1918-1948 (ISBN 0262025167, also available in German) and Greenberg et al, Czech Vision: Avant Garde Photography in Czechoslovakia (ISBN 3775720308, perhaps also available in German); neither of these books is mentioned in the article (which of course I mean as a friendly nudge, not as criticism); and I'd imagine that one or both would have bibliographic apparatus pointing to more specialist material, perhaps in German and/or Czech rather than English.

Lastly, articles usually avoid "See also" lists, when links to these articles can instead be worked into the main text (as they usually can). See this. -- Hoary (talk) 02:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS I don't quite know why I was linking to books on the avant-garde. Perhaps there's also a book in the Czech arrière garde. Anyway, there's Rudolf Koppitz, 1884–1936 (in English ISBN 0874140994 or in German ISBN 3854475756), which I haven't seen but which I'd expect to be authoritative and useful. -- Hoary (talk) 05:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1) "Wikipedia:Verifiability, a policy page, states: Articles and posts on Wikipedia, or other websites that mirror Wikipedia content, may not be used as sources. Like it or not, that's clear."

Thank you for pointing out the official policy. I will begin working to bring the article in compliance with the Wikipedia policy.

2) "What's not entirely clear to me is what you want to do."

Only to reference any and all unoriginal thoughts, sources and or language used in the construction of the article that are not my own.

3) "You seem to say that the de:WP, cs:WP and about.com pages are valuable and appear to be extensively sourced, and that you verified for yourself that the sourcing is genuine (that the claimed sources are indeed sources)."

What I said was; the available body knowledge that existed on the photographer could only in part be found on Answers.com's Photography Encyclopedia and other foreign language Wikipedia sites. Without contributions from these sites the article on Rudolf Koppitz would have been incomplete. (I.e., date and location of birth and date and location of death) Also, the information contained in the Answers.com and foreign language Wikipedia citations were as thoroughly checked and verified for integrity and quality using third party sources from the information available at the time. I have included a through notes and reference list of what was available to me at the time the sources were retrieved, 29 November 2008, and when the article was written.

4) "Moreover, you say that the available body knowledge that existed on the photographer could only in part be found on Answers.com's Photography Encyclopedia and other foreign language Wikipedia sites. That pretty clearly indicates that this material, or anyway part of it, is not sourced, or anyway not sourced to materials that you can access. Well then, that's out."

The Answers.com Photography Encyclopedia was written by Dr. Robin Lenman editor of The Oxford Companion to the Photograph and cites Faber, M. (ed.), Rudolf Koppitz, 1884-1936 (1995) as the source text for his information. About Dr. Robin Lenman, Dr Robin Lenman has just retired from his post as Senior Lecturer in the Department of History, University of Warwick, where he taught an MA course on Photography and Society in Europe. His research specialisms include European visual culture, the social history of photography, and 19th- and 20th-century German and European history. His publications include Die Kunst, die Macht und das Geld (1994), and Artists and Society in Germany 1850-1910 (1997).^[1] I will add the author's information to the cite. It is my fault for not including it before but hopefully this clarifies the use of this cite.

The Czech author of their foreign language contribution on Koppitz mentioned in the article that Koppitz was not mentioned in their Encyclopedia of Czech Photographers or Encyclopedia Czech Fine Artists. The books you mentioned sound interesting and may be worth investigating.

5) "I recognize that you're doing excellent work on this article and don't at all want to discourage you from continuing."

Thank you for your attention and efforts to improve my article. It is the efforts of people like you who are aiding the integrity of Wikipedia and are bringing the process ever closer to the ideals of peer review. I appreciate your constructive criticism and I look forward to working with you in the future.

--A. Poinçot (talk) 08:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Biography

The Germany language Wikipedia contains an uncited reference to Koppitz entering the Graphische Lehr- und Versuchsanstalt, "Institute for Teaching and Research in Graphic Arts" in 1913 to work as an assistant contradicting the citation referencing 1912 and to continue his studies.^[2]

Any information to independently confirm or deny said reference? Please discuss.

--A. Poinçot (talk) 19:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The identity of Bewegungsstudie's nude dancer.

In c. 1925 Koppitz created his masterpiece, Bewegungsstudie, "Motion Study" in which he photographed dancers from the Vienna State Opera;^[3] the nude dancer, credited to be the Russian^[4] Claudia Issatschenko^[5] but is more likely, her daughter,^[6] ballet dancer and choreographer, Tatyana Issatschenko Gsovsky b. 1901,^[7] with her head thrown dramatically back and flanked by three dark-robed women,^[8] lends Bewegungsstudie to the highly decorative and symbolist tradition of the Viennese Jugendstil^[9].

File:KOPPITZ 0001.jpg

Bewegungsstudie "Motion Study" c. 1925

While several sources cite the identity of Bewegungsstudie's nude dancer as being Claudia Issatschenko, who is also credited with being the mother of ballet dancer Tatiana Issatschenko Gsovsky b. 1901, the youthful appearance of the nude woman in the photograph only raises suspicion as to not only her age but also her true identity. I believe that is is reasonable to suspect that the identity of the nude woman is in fact Tatiana Issatschenko Gsovsky who would have been about 25 at the time the photograph was taken due in part to her visible youth and the fact that historical references place her in and around Vienna at that time.

It is possible that she may have left Russia during its great upheaval under her mothers name for travel and identity purposes which is why her mother is the credited model or perhaps she just didn't want to use her real name since she was posing nude and figured that using her mother's name would still lend a reasonable amount of anonymity to the nude figures true identity while she continued to perform on stage. However, this is purely speculation on my part an is based on no citeable resources or facts.

Please discuss.

--A. Poinçot (talk) 20:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We harmless drudges creating this encyclopedia are warned off the idea of using our brains, but it's absurd to follow this principle to the point of uncritically regurgitating a conventional but unargued story that this is the photograph of a woman who was then presumably in her forties or fifties.

Who was it, then? Unfortunately even undisputed factual evidence would not be very helpful, because of rules here about "original research" and "original synthesis". Instead, we have to see what is said by putative authorities on the subject, even if we think that they have got it all very wrong.

Wouldn't the most authoritative source (as of 1994/95, anyway) for this and much else be the multiply authored Rudolf Koppitz, 1884–1936 (in English ISBN 0874140994 or in German ISBN 3854475756)? (I haven't seen this.) -- Hoary (talk) 02:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was concerned about the "original research" aspect of my thesis so I figured that the discussion would probably be the best place for pointing out the apparent age discrepancy of the model and who she is credited to be before removing the reference to it from the article. And you're right, The book you mention by Jo-Anne Conklin is considered by many as the authoritative text on Rudolf Koppitz and his work. Most auction houses reference this very text in their appraisals and listings. Also, many of the websites used as a reference in my article derived their work in part from the Jo-Anne Conklin book.

I actually ordered this text from Amazon.com the day I started putting together my initial research for the article but thanks for the suggestion anyway. Hopefully by the weekend I will have it in my hands and be able to provide more definitive sources than what I already have. THANK YOU for all of your feedback and attention to improve my article. This is my first work on Wikipedia and your help and education has been greatly appreciated. I am looking forward to working working with you in the future.

--A. Poinçot (talk) 07:57, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion Notes

^ http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/25623/subject/ArtArchitecture/?view=usa&ci=9780198662716
^ http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Koppitz Seit 1913 war er Assistent und nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg Lehrer an der Graphischen Lehr- und Versuchsanstalt in Wien. Translation: Since 1913, he was assistant and after the First World War, teachers in the teaching and Graphics Laboratory in Vienna.
^ http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/c-professor-rudolf-koppitz,-1884-1936-bewegungs-1-c-kt0adge74r In this instance the dancers are from the Vienna State Opera; the nude figure is known to be Claudia Issatschenko.
^ http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5164968 This dramatic study of a group of Russian dancers... remains in the minds of all who view it.
^ http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/c-professor-rudolf-koppitz,-1884-1936-bewegungs-1-c-kt0adge74r In this instance the dancers are from the Vienna State Opera; the nude figure is known to be Claudia Issatschenko.
^ http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Koppitz Sein wohl berühmtestes Foto zeigt eine 1925 aufgenommene Bewegungsstudie der Tanzgruppe von Claudia Issatschenko, der Mutter der Choreografin Tatjana Gsovsky und des Sprachwissenschaftlers Alexander Issatschenko, in welcher eine unbekleidete Tänzerin vor einer Dreiecksformation aus drei dunkel gewandeten Tänzerinnen schreitend in einer Rückbeuge zu sehen ist. Translation: His most famous photo shows a 1925 study of the movement recorded by Claudia Issatschenko dance, the mother of choreographer Tatiana Gsovsky and linguist Alexander Issatschenko, in which a naked dancer before a triangular formation of three dark gewandeten dancers in a cross-border Rückbeuge be seen.
^ http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatjana_Gsovsky Tatjana Gsovsky, geborene Issatschenko (* 18. März 1901 in Moskau; † 29. September 1993 in Berlin) war eine international bekannte russische Balletttänzerin, Choreografin und Ballettmeisterin. Translation: Tatyana Gsovsky, born Issatschenko (* 18 Mar., 1901 in Moscow; † September 29, 1993 in Berlin) was an internationally renowned Russian ballet dancer, choreographer and ballet master.
^ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE7D7133EF932A25753C1A960958260 a female dancer with her head thrown back dramatically is flanked by three dark-robed women.
^ http://www.paulcava.com/paulcavafineartr.html created his masterpiece, Bewegungsstudie, the highly decorative and symbolist tradition of the Viennese Jugendstil.

[1] ttp://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/25623/subject/ArtArchitecture/?view=usa&ci=9780198662716

[2] ttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Koppitz Seit 1913 war er Assistent und nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg Lehrer an der Graphischen Lehr- und Versuchsanstalt in Wien. Translation: Since 1913, he was assistant and after the First World War, teachers in the teaching and Graphics Laboratory in Vienna.

[3] ttp://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/c-professor-rudolf-koppitz,-1884-1936-bewegungs-1-c-kt0adge74r In this instance the dancers are from the Vienna State Opera; the nude figure is known to be Claudia Issatschenko.

[4] ttp://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5164968 This dramatic study of a group of Russian dancers... remains in the minds of all who view it.

[5] ttp://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/c-professor-rudolf-koppitz,-1884-1936-bewegungs-1-c-kt0adge74r In this instance the dancers are from the Vienna State Opera; the nude figure is known to be Claudia Issatschenko.

[6] ttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Koppitz Sein wohl berühmtestes Foto zeigt eine 1925 aufgenommene Bewegungsstudie der Tanzgruppe von Claudia Issatschenko, der Mutter der Choreografin Tatjana Gsovsky und des Sprachwissenschaftlers Alexander Issatschenko, in welcher eine unbekleidete Tänzerin vor einer Dreiecksformation aus drei dunkel gewandeten Tänzerinnen schreitend in einer Rückbeuge zu sehen ist. Translation: His most famous photo shows a 1925 study of the movement recorded by Claudia Issatschenko dance, the mother of choreographer Tatiana Gsovsky and linguist Alexander Issatschenko, in which a naked dancer before a triangular formation of three dark gewandeten dancers in a cross-border Rückbeuge be seen.

[7] ttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatjana_Gsovsky Tatjana Gsovsky, geborene Issatschenko (* 18. März 1901 in Moskau; † 29. September 1993 in Berlin) war eine international bekannte russische Balletttänzerin, Choreografin und Ballettmeisterin. Translation: Tatyana Gsovsky, born Issatschenko (* 18 Mar., 1901 in Moscow; † September 29, 1993 in Berlin) was an internationally renowned Russian ballet dancer, choreographer and ballet master.

[8] ttp://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE7D7133EF932A25753C1A960958260 a female dancer with her head thrown back dramatically is flanked by three dark-robed women.

[9] ttp://www.paulcava.com/paulcavafineartr.html created his masterpiece, Bewegungsstudie, the highly decorative and symbolist tradition of the Viennese Jugendstil.

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