Talk:RuPaul's Drag Race/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Request for comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Context: this RfC continues a discussion about the "Contestant progress" tables in each "RuPaul's Drag Race (season X)" article, which began at the season 9 talk page in March, ending without a close, significantly after a third opinion was offered. Discussion then moved to this talk page, where consensus was reached regarding a subset of the issues. This RfC was then opened, and it birthed an AN/I filing which resulted in no action taken against any party.

Subject background: RuPaul's Drag Race is a contest–reality show. Every episode, there is a challenge, and one of several things will happen to each contestant:

1. She wins the challenge (1 contestant)
2. She is eliminated in a lip-synching contest (1 contestant)
3. She is forced to lip-synch but is not eliminated (1 contestant)
4. She is declared safe (1 or more contestants)

All these outcomes are present in the "Contestant progress" tables for all seasons and are neither contentious nor interpretive. Of the contestants declared safe, one of the following may happen:

• She is the last to be declared safe (1 contestant)
• She receives judges' critiques prior to being declared safe (1 or more contestants)
• She is explicitly declared as one of the tops or bottoms prior to being declared safe (0 or more contestants)
• She is on a team that wins the challenge, and must reasonably considered to be amongst the tops (0 or more contestants)

All of these outcomes are not contentious but are not necessarily represented in the "Contestant progress" tables, and have the following issues:

• Contestants are rarely explicitly declared tops or bottoms.
• Critiques given by the judges can be unambiguously positive, unambiguously negative, or ambiguous
• There is no differentiation in any table between contestants being on a winning team and receiving unambiguously positive critiques
• After about the midpoint of each season, all contestants are critiqued each episode

Consensus has already been reached, above, that when secondary sources exist which explicitly declare contestants to be tops or bottoms, this information can be included in the "Contestant progress" tables with citation. This process is complete for season 9.

The present RfC is a discussion about whether or not the episode itself can be used as a source, with or without a quote or timestamp, to populate the "Contestant progress" tables with HIGHs (==tops; =="received positive critiques…") and LOWs (==bottoms; =="received negative critiques…"). According to MOS:PLOT#Sourcing_and_quotations, The plot summary for a work, on a page about that work, does not need to be sourced with in-line citations, as it is generally assumed that the work itself is the primary source for the plot summary. It is contentious that the tops and bottoms of an episode fall under the purview of "plot" in every case (it is not contentious when they are explicitly named in the episode). Further, since the judges sometimes give ambiguous critiques, it is contentious that naming the HIGHs and LOWs of any given episode constitutes original research. This is the primary point of contention.

In addition to the aforementioned, non-contentious royalblue winner, red eliminated, tomato bottom 2, and white safe, the state of the "Contestant progress" tables at present is as follows:

• Season 9 is populated with lightblue highs and lightpink lows and fully sourced to reliable secondary sources.
• Season 8 and Season 7 are populated with lightpink "last chosen to be safe" (season 7: LOW; season 8: SAFE), cornsilk "received critiques" (SAFE), with no secondary sourcing.
• Seasons 1–6 are populated with cornsilk "received critiques" (SAFE).

Findings:

• white and cornsilk do not contrast well enough to meet MOS:CONTRAST. The cornsilk tabledata boxes must be altered to a colour more contrastive with white.
• It is unambiguous and not a matter of interpretation that one contestant will always be last to be declared safe. In the absence of secondary sources, this terminology, employed in the "Contestant progress" tables of seasons 7 and 8, does not require a quote or timestamp, per MOS:PLOT.
• "Last to be declared safe" appears to be substantially equivalent to the label low.
• If contestants are explicitly named tops or bottoms in any media other than the particular episode in which they were found to be amonst the tops or bottoms (such as the following episode, an episode of Untucked, or an episode of All Stars), the episode in which the contestants are explicitly named must be cited in the column header, since the episode to which the categorisations apply is not the source, again per MOS:PLOT.
• That every contestant receives a critique after roughly the season's midpoint is immaterial to the use of labels in the "Contestant progress" table.

Recommendations:

• In the absence of reliable secondary sources, the label "low" should be defined as, and explained beneath the "Contestant progress" table as "the contestant last chosen to be safe", as this is a matter of temporal necessity and not subject to interpretation. This label can be realised as tomato lightpink SAFE or LOW. Edited 20:00, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
• If contestants are explicitly declared tops or bottoms in an episode, no citation is necessary per MOS:PLOT.
• If contestants are not explicitly declared tops or bottoms in an episode, a contestant should only be labelled HIGH if:

1. A cited reliable secondary source says so, or
2. She was on a winning team, or
3. An exact quote of the judges' critiques is cited and its interpretation is not contended, or
4. An overview of the judges' critiques is brought to the season's talk page, as was successfully done for season 9, and is not contended.

The onus is on the editor applying the HIGH label to ensure one of these criteria is met, per WP:BURDEN.

• Generally, it is best for our purposes as an encyclopaedia to use the neutral language "received critiques and was declared safe", perhaps realised as a lightblue SAFE, to distinguish between certain levels of safety amonst the contestants.

Snuge purveyor (talk) 04:34, 4 July 2017 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Per the closer's comment that "relying upon the show itself ... might involve questions of WP:OR and is very fact dependent on what exactly was said": Can editors make subjective claims based on the primary-source episodes without providing a cite (timestamp and quote) as to what exactly was said? --Tenebrae (talk) 14:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

• No Anyone can claim anything without verification — without a timestamp and a quote, we're just taking someone's subjective, POV word that someone somewhere in the episode said something that someone might construe as saying someone's chances of continuing were high or low. That is not how WP:VERIFY works. The closer further stated that when claiming a primary source, "we have to be very careful in such a case not to do WP:OR." Without providing cites, editors are pushing their own personal OR of people's chances. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• YesYes as to quotes, No as to timestamp and infrences/conclusions. Per WP:SOURCEACCESS: Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access. Under the rules, the only thing that is required is a cite to the show itself (including the episode #) and, when appropriate, the timestamp of the relevant part (so the person doesn't have to watch the whole episode). As to including quotes, it is not required but it is recommended when possible. Per WP:Citing_sources#Additional_annotation: In most cases it is sufficient for a citation footnote simply to identify the source (as described in the sections above); readers can then consult the source to see how it supports the information in the article. and A footnote may also contain a relevant exact quotation from the source. This is especially helpful when the cited text is long or dense. A quotation allows readers to immediately identify the applicable portion of the reference. Quotes are also useful if the source is not easily accessible. When possible we should include the quotation from a TV show as it is a fairly long source that is not easily accessible. However, it is not required and sometimes not possible. If you are summarizing what occurred in a large conversation then it may not be reasonable to quote the entire conversation. A timestamp should still be given, but a quote would not be possible. If a quote is possible, we should use it. But even if it is a summary, it should be clear to anyone that watches the conversation being summarized that the meaning you give it is what actually occurred. -Obsidi (talk) 14:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

On second thought what do you mean by "subjective"? do you mean it is unclear from watching the source? If so then only secondary sources can be used for that. If it is clear what occurred in the primary source, after you watch it, then it can be used (with or without providing a quote). -Obsidi (talk) 15:02, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Not only is it critical to know "exactly what was said" since we can't just "take his word for it" whenever an editor personally decides how to interpret something, but we need to know who is making the statement. If a judge is saying someone is "high" or "low," that's official. If one of the contestants is saying it, that's just one person's opinion and not fact. --Tenebrae (talk) 12:29, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Also the appropriate content for citing a TV show are given here:WP:Citing_sources#Film.2C_television.2C_or_video_recordings. -Obsidi (talk) 15:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not unclear so to speak but is often open to interpretation depending on how the viewer receives what the judges are saying. That was the whole basis of the WP:OR discussion, which a few people agreed with and some didn't which is why I moved to compromise and use reliable secondary sources such as one of the judges recaps posted weekly for online articles. Quotations from the show are incredibly long which is why it would be best to link to a secondary source for each week for the progress tables rather than rely on the show itself. That way it is definitely sourced and there is further information readily available for readers who may not have seen the show and want further detail. Also per WP:PSTS a secondary source would strengthen and add to the validity of the primary source Brocicle (talk) 15:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

If there is a reliable secondary source available, those are preferable over primary sources. But a citation to a primary source shouldn't be removed just because it is a primary source (unless you are replacing it with a reliable secondary source). The question is, would any reasonable person watching the episode believe what is being claimed happened in the show? If so then it is clear what the answer is and the primary source could be used, otherwise a secondary source should be used. A conclusion or inference (as people could interpret it differently), can not be cited directly in a primary source. -Obsidi (talk) 16:12, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

The interpretive work by Obsidi effectively nullifies the dissent from the two users repeatedly attempting to undermine the already established consensus. This matter has been settled twice over now. Anonymous5454 (talk) 20:49, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Per WP:PRIMARY, if an editor has interpreted something in the show, or drawn a conclusion that was not explicit in the source, then that is OR. As for inline citations and quotations, I believe MOS:PLOT#Sourcing and quotations applies:

The plot summary for a work, on a page about that work, does not need to be sourced with in-line citations, as it is generally assumed that the work itself is the primary source for the plot summary. However, editors are encouraged to add sourcing if possible. If a plot summary includes a direct quote from the work, this must be cited using inline citations per WP:QUOTE.

When quoting someone in the show, the template to use is Template:Cite episode. The time in the episode when the event happens goes in either the minutes parameter or in time. Where appropriate, we can add the exact quote to the inline citation (instead of the main text) with the quote parameter. Quotes can be shortened with ellipses as long as it doesn't change the meaning. —Ringbang (talk) 16:16, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, particularly since we're not talking about the objective plot of the show but subjective interpretations of what people are saying.--Tenebrae (talk) 12:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

No citation to primary sources were removed as there were none. This is why two editors reverted the change on seasons 1-8 and all star seasons 1 and 2 as no sources primary or secondary were included when an editor did a mass edit for all pages after closing of the consensus.

The only question that needs to be answered is can we use a reliable secondary source for the progress tables? Answer seems to be yes, so considering this, all season articles that do not have sources should remain how they were prior to the consensus change until reliable secondary sources are found and added or someone takes the time to add the show as a source correctly rather than leaving it completely unsourced Brocicle (talk) 16:39, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

That is not the consensus that was reached. YOU are required to source anything that goes against using the show as a primary source. nihlus kryik (talk) 18:01, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

nihlus kryik is correct. Anonymous5454 (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

If you're using the show as a primary source then source it correctly. An editor linked you to a page on how to source tv episodes. Brocicle (talk) 00:57, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Nihlus Kryik misreads consensus. As the closer, User:Obsidi, said in the close, "relying upon the show itself ...might involve questions of WP:OR and is very fact dependent on what exactly was said." The only way to know "exactly what was said" is to quote the statement. We can't just "take his word for it" whenever an editor personally decides how to interpret something.

Additionally, we need to know who is making the statement. If a judge is saying someone is "high" or "low," that's official. If one of the contestants is saying it, that's just one person's opinion and not fact. --Tenebrae (talk) 12:27, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

No, no, and no. Why are you refusing to read most of the arguments put forth? Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Additional_annotation. In most cases it is sufficient for a citation footnote simply to identify the source (as described in the sections above); readers can then consult the source to see how it supports the information in the article. A citation that just cites the episode is implied and would be superfluous. Stop being obtuse and purposefully misinterpreting the comments of others and the consensus of the community. Thanks. nihlus kryik (talk) 12:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

There you go, hurling insults and name-calling again. Please try to be civil. We're not talking about the objective plot of a movie or a TV show. We're talking about your personal interpretation of something someone may or may not have said. There's no way for anyone to see if what you're saying is true since we don't know what statement on which you're basing your subjective, POV interpretation.--Tenebrae (talk) 12:56, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

More side-stepping. At this point, I am done with you and your disruptive editing. Once this is closed against your favor, I recommend you drop the stick or end up at WP:ANI. nihlus kryik (talk) 13:01, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not side-stepping: It's the point at the heart of this discussion. And now you've added threats to your insults, name-calling and ad hominem attacks. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I'd concur with Nihlus Kryik on this; it might be necessary to get WP:ANI involved here. Raising the possibility of administrator involvement is not a threat, and referring to it as such qualifies as an ad hominem attack and diminishes actual instances of legitimate threats. This has gotten completely out of hand, and over something A) trivial and B) already beholden to a previously-established consensus. Anonymous5454 (talk) 20:49, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Yes Per Obsidi and their wonderful comment. I have stated numerous times that when a judge's comments can be interpreted as either High or Low, that we should cite secondary sources. However, you have two editors who are more focused on politicking and grandstanding that they have continuous failed to supply the requested information and have merely disrupted other editors in the process. nihlus kryik (talk) 18:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Yes Why on earth are we discussing this again? We've reached consensus, and with this additional input we now have a dozen users in agreement that this does not constitute WP:OR. The idea that we would have to include a timestamp from an episode of Untucked is over-the-top; we're citing a separate secondary source written by one of the show's judges. I have no idea why we've all been dragged into the same debate for the umpteenth time. If this continues, it might be necessary for administrators to warn Brocicle. This WP:DE has gotten completely out of hand. We're beating a WP:Deadhorse at this point. Anonymous5454 (talk) 18:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I did not open this RfC and I am more than welcome to add my opinion on a new discussion started by another editor. Your last sentence seems very personal attack like considering you jumped to conclusions. Brocicle (talk) 00:57, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

You repeatedly attempted to undermine established consensus in the prior discussion and have continued doing so here; that is why I referred to you specifically. Referring to a user by name does not qualify as a personal attack. Anonymous5454 (talk) 20:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

No, I was responding to an editor who asked a question. You really need to calm down. Referring to me by name is not a personal attack no but trying to threaten me with admin action when Ive done nothing wrong is. Brocicle (talk) 01:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I think if we're using a part of the show that the reader might not expect, e.g., the following episode when Ru says something like "last week you almost won", or Untucked after everyone returns from the mainstage, then it would be useful to point out explicitly where the editor got that information, because otherwise it's thought to be during the mainstage critique or letting the top/bottom girls know who's safe vs who won/has to lip sync. I'm undecided if we need exact time stamps for every instance or just the ones in non-obvious locations. I'm also undecided as to if we need to quote verbatim -- maybe only in cases where the Editor feels there might be disagreement. Umimmak (talk) 18:32, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
• Yes No and Comment: The show can definitely be used as a primary source and the only source. Almost all of Wikipedia's TV shows that have tables like this relies on it and we would be set quite a bit without it. My argument was not that the show itself should not be used because it is not WP:Verifiable. My argument was that regarding this show, in particular, people have been interpreting the judge's critiques as good and/or bad, and there is no way to 100% agree whether they were in the top or bottom. This is the problem we have seen with these articles for the past few years. (People changing certain contests to top and certain to bottom). This is what is regarded as WP:OR and why I initially made the proposal to remove them and came to the conclusion to do so. As Obsidi said in their closing statements, a secondary source is needed in cases where the judge's critiques are ambiguous and the Wikipedia editor has to do Original Research to come to the conclusion if they did good or bad, which in almost all cases I think you will find you have to do. I think in both cases we have been asking the wrong questions. We should not be asking if the show can be used as a source, it can, or that secondary sources can be used to put HIGHs and LOWs, they can, but if in the other seasons where we do not have secondary sources, if the show is definite enough in their critiques to include the HIGHs and LOWs. Chase | ^talk 20:58, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I misread the request and did not see the word subjective. Chase | ^talk 04:58, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

• undecided and comment I think past season contestant progress tables should be sourced through a reliablr secondary source like season 9 is. If you use the show as a source then I think you should cite it properly for each contestants critique. Brocicle (talk) 01:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

That is absurd and a way to clutter the page. nihlus kryik (talk) 12:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

So you not only make uncivil attacks on me, but on other editors. Calling an editor's comments "absurd" and "clutter" is a way of saying that only your opinion matters and that anyone else's comments are simply "cutter[ing]" the page and worthless. Nice. You need to stop your continual ad hominem attacks. --Tenebrae (talk) 13:09, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Linking to a Wikipedia policy that calls it clutter is not an ad hominem attack. Please stop your disruptive editing and complete hijacking of this topic. Your only argument is attacking how I am saying stuff and not what I am saying. nihlus kryik (talk) 13:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Season 9's progress table is sourced secondarily. Don't see how sourcing the other the same is absurd or how it would create clutter. Brocicle (talk) 14:24, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

• Note: User:Nihlus Kryik's comments need to be taken within the context that he wants us to rely on his judgment of subjective statements that he refuses to cite since they may not say what he claims they say. And his judgment his such that he feels it perfectly proper to personally attack another editor with unnecessary uncivil comments that impugn an editor's good faith, like " worry less about your edit count and more about what your edits are." This is the person whose judgment we're relying on?--Tenebrae (talk) 12:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

That I refuse to cite? I have said numerous times that possibly ambiguous critiques from the judges should have secondary sources, but the onus is on the person challenging the primary source. You have yet again failed to read the arguments put forth. Now, since your arguments are being shredded by the community as being ridiculous, you try to undermine the judgment of the editors themselves instead of focusing on the arguments that are being made. At this point, you are merely being disruptive. nihlus kryik (talk) 12:52, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

No, the onus is on the editor who adds a claim to an article. We're not talking about the objective plot of a movie or a TV show. We're talking about your personal interpretation of something someone may or may not have said. There's no way for anyone to see if what you're saying is true since we don't know what statement on which you're basing your subjective, POV interpretation.

Oh, and please, stop making ad hominem attacks, which is the last refuge of someone who can't otherwise support the merits of their argument. Nothing is being "shredded by the community" — indeed, I'm seeing reasonable commentary back and forth, with even editor who lean toward one side leavening their comments with agreement on aspects of the other side. The only editor here acting unreasonably — making personal accusations, hurling insults and name-calling — is you. You're the person whose subjective, POV interpretations of things we're supposed to trust? --Tenebrae (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

nihlus kryik has repeatedly cited the information that the vast majority of users want to include in the page. These are not subjective opinions; they've been cited to reputable sources. Tenebrae, you're now going after individual users, utilizing ad hominem attacks and then gaslighting users by accusing them of doing the same. There is no "reasonable back and forth" - We've already reached a consensus on this issue, and once again, in this second debate on the same issue, the users advocating for the high/low method outweigh the dissenters by a large margin. This is getting ridiculous; we have reached WP:Consensus. Enough. Anonymous5454 (talk) 20:37, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

No information has been cited for the progress tables except for season 9. Where's this repeatedly cited informationyou speak of? Brocicle (talk) 01:42, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I really do not understand why you're refusing and so against a reliable secondary source. Brocicle (talk) 01:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The only ones who have acted uncivilly are User:Nihlus Kryik with his string of attacks on this page and on my talk page, and User:Anonymous5454 with unfounded accusations of gaslighting and of attacks by me. I would ask Anonymous5454 to please point to where I've engaged in, as he claims, "ad hominem attacks".

I would also ask any closing admin to please review the reasonable, flowchart questions posed by User:Trooper1005 under "Context of Highs and Lows for this RfC".--Tenebrae (talk) 20:00, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Context of Highs and Lows for this RfC

I recently gave a third opinion on this matter and I believe that it would help voters if they could understand the core issues being discussed here. I also believe that the rise of user conduct accusations is directly linked to miscommunication of the issue at hand.

These are questions that editors who are involved in editing the article should probably know the answers to and hopefully having answers will help us come to a clear answer in this RfC.

1a. In an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race, is it explicitly stated that contestants are "High" or "Low"? If yes, go to question 1b. If no, go to question 2.
1b. Do all RuPaul's Drag Race episodes have this explicit statement that contestants are rated "High" or Low"? If yes, then you should vote yes in the above voting area for the RfC. If no, then go to question 2.
2. Can you find a reliable secondary source in which someone of prominence (ie. close to the show) states that contestants are "High" or "Low" and you can quote them? If yes, then we should abandon this RfC and instead source all of the "High" and "Low" ratings. If no, then go to question 3a.
3a. What do the judges specifically rate the contestants as and could that be used in the tables instead? If the answer is yes, then we should abandon this RfC and instead boldly change the tables to what the judges specifically say - ditching the idea of "High" and "Low" for table entries altogether. If the answer is no, then go to question 3b.
3b. Why can't what the judges specifically rate the contestant as be used in the tables instead? If you can state a reason, go to question 4.
4. Given that the answers to all the other questions have got you to this question, wouldn't it be safe to assume that no clear consensus can be had on "High" and "Low" and therefore we should side with established policy of WP:OR? If the answer to this is yes, then you should vote No in the above RfC. If the answer to this question is no, please state a compelling reason for believing otherwise.

Thanks. -=Troop=- (talk) 14:10, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, at least someone is understanding what is being said. The ONLY episode where it is explicitly stated who is HIGH is the first episode of season 9. Seeing as a consensus was reached to included HIGH and LOW then they should add a reliable secondary source which there seems to be a few thanks to editor User:CaliforniaDreamsFan placing them in the examples section of the now closed consensus discussion. It should not be this difficult for editors to see a reliable secondary source is needed, especially when multiple editors have stated they are preferred over the non existant (meaning not properly sourced) primary sources. And seeing as User:Nihlus Kryik says that sourcing the primary source correctly is "absurd and would create clutter" then the secondary source seems like a more viable option. In my opinion, you should either add the secondary sources or source the primary one correctly. Brocicle (talk) 14:34, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, in answer to Q.3a the judges call the contestants the TOPS and BOTTOMS for the week not HIGH and LOW. And usually they do not explicitly state who the tops and bottoms are other than the winner/s of the challenge and the bottom 2 who lip sync. Brocicle (talk) 16:04, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

There has been no miscommunication here. We all understand the issue at hand, and a vast majority of the users involved in this discussion don't agree with either of you. I reject the steps listed above; they're rooted in Tenebrae's own WP:OR, not this site's relevant policy. Brocicle has dragged this debate out far past the point of reasonability, and has repeatedly acted uncivilly, demeaning other users' contributions throughout the entirety of this endless back and forth. There are now two separate instances of consensus that we should use the show as a primary source and rely on the secondary sources from one of the show's judges to source the highs and lows of the progress chart only if we have them. This debate ended quite a while ago. This dead horse can't get much deader. Anonymous5454 (talk) 20:25, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I have never acted uncivilly. It's not about who agrees with who, at the end of the day it an encyclopedia. Things should be properly sourced, thats all that's being said. I have not dragged anything out, if you read correctly another user opened this RfC and I as an editor are more than welcome to comment on it without being attacked or put down for my opinion. If you don't like it, fine that's on you, but we're welcome to share our thoughts because no one WP:OWNs this article but you're certainly acting like you do. Brocicle (talk) 01:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Brocicle, you've repeatedly attempted to override multiple instances of consensus to push your own personal position on this issue, often times belittling other users and responding passive aggressively to those simply because they rejected your interpretation of original research; I only got involved to offer my support to that first consensus. If anyone is attempting to push an agenda that runs counter to everything nearly every other editor has advocated for, therefore violating WP:OWN, it would be you. I didn't "attack" you for voicing your opinion, and I am aware of the fact that another user initiated this attempt to override previously established consensus; I criticized you for continuing to beat this dead horse for no apparent reason. A dozen users have reached consensus on this issue; you have one other user who agrees with your interpretation, and given that you two are attempting to override consensus, you have the burden of convincing the userbase that your interpretation is correct. You've now failed to do so twice. As I've said repeatedly, this issue has been settled. We've established a consensus now two separate times. Anonymous5454 (talk) 03:28, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

No. No consensus was ever reached on allowing editors to insert their own subjective interpretation of what an unspecified person who may nor may not be a judge may have said. The contestants' opinions are meaningless in this context — only the judges' statements matter. So we need to know who made the statement being cited —and we need to know what the statement is, since otherwise we're relying on some editor's POV interpretation of a casual statement. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Please show me where I've attempted to override, belittle or where I've been passive agressive. I'm not pushing or attempting to override anything except the addition of reliable secondary sources, which multiple editors have stated they are preferred over a primary source. Only you and another editor are commenting on my apparent behaviour, seems you have some personal bias. If you have such a problem with my alleged behaviour then take it to an admin. I will not sit back and be told I'm doing something when I'm not due to misinterpretation. If you have any further comments then bring it to my talk page. Your incorrect accusations have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Brocicle (talk) 03:43, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Calling for closure

I'm calling for this discussion to be closed. Tenebrae apparently hasn't watched the show to even understand it and is more upset by the fact that he is not winning or something. Movie pages don't cite the movie, book pages don't cite the book, and reality tv show pages don't cite the show. Get over it already. nihlus kryik (talk) 21:37, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

You can call for anything you like, but RfCs remain open for 30 days when no consensus has been reached. And there is no consensus for saying that editors are allowed to make their own subjective, POV interpretations of what someone may or may not have said in an episode. And yelling "get over it already" is extremely uncivil and completely inappropriate. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:41, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

No one has answered your question with "no" but you. That is consensus. You did not get your way. The community has spoken and you are being disruptive at this point. nihlus kryik (talk) 21:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

As with Donald Trump, just because you're saying something untrue over and over again, that doesn't make it true. Every editor but you and one other are discussing things calmly and reasonably. There is no consensus that says editors are allowed to make their own subjective, POV interpretations of primary sources. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not a POV interpretation. Apparently you will not accept anything but your own way. I will be seeing you on WP:ANI. nihlus kryik (talk) 21:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

It is unless the judges are specifically saying so-and-so ranks "high" and so-and-so ranks "low," which they do not. And I'd be interested in seeing how WP:ANI reacts to your having uncivilly told an admin that blocking a new, genuinely disruptive editor was "an egregious abuse of admin privileges and a piss-poor way of assuming good faith." --Tenebrae (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The ANI will be about your disruptive editing and annoying behavior for not getting your way, since you seem incapable of understanding that 10-1 is consensus. But let's bring in other things other editors are doing into this discussion because you have no argument left. Go worry about your inflated edit count and feeling special and entitled. nihlus kryik (talk) 22:11, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

OK, you're just plain making up numbers, when User:Brocicle is in agreement and several editors aren't taking sides but making comments. And additionally, RfC are not about votes — it's about the quality of the arguments and how well they adhere to policy and guidelines. And once again, there is no policy allowing you or any other editor to make subjective, POV interpretations of primary sources. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:14, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I hear if you repeat something continuously some people will start to believe it. Not me. nihlus kryik (talk) 22:16, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

All those that you listed have reliable secondary sources to confirm information. I really don't see why you're so against a reliable secondary source for all season progress tables but okay with using them for season 9. Brocicle (talk) 22:11, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Are you talking to me? I never said I was against using secondary sources. I have always said we should use them when there are ambiguous statements, like there was on last night's episode. But what I have said is we shouldn't avoid utilizing the High/Low info just because we don't have a secondary source. nihlus kryik (talk) 22:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

That's not what this RfC is about. It's about subjective, POV claims that a primary source said something when they made only vague statements not involving the terms or the concepts of "high" and "low." The judges aren't saying "so-and-so ranks high" and "so-and-so ranks low." Those are subjective interpretations. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:19, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Removing the "highs" and "lows" adds needless ambiguity to these pages; additionally, these charts were originally built concurrent to the show, as it was airing. They are not "subjective interpretations," as other users have attested to above. They were added with the show used as a primary source. As Obsidi stated above, there is no requirement that secondary sources be used. We're using them on the season nine page because they are available and because other users were attempting to satisfy Brocicle's complaints. The consensus that was previously reached was that these tables were to remain as they are, with secondary sources used for the season nine page because they are available, not because we were required to use them. Again, we have consensus here. Attempting to categorize the necessary editing required to carry out this consensus as "subjective, POV claims," regardless of whether or not you personally feel that these edits fit that description, does not override that consensus. I have no real interest in commenting on this matter any further; it's apparent that two users are intent on arguing this point indefinitely in the face of consensus. This back and forth is accomplishing nothing; the matter has already been settled. The charts are to remain as they were prior to this debate, per consensus. Anonymous5454 (talk) 22:36, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Are they? Or are we waiting for the RfC closer to make that determination. What I see is that a couple of editors want to use subjective POV interpretation of what a primary source may or may not have said — and refuse to want to back up their interpretation with a proper cite of the supposed statement. This flies in the face of WP:VERIFY.--Tenebrae (talk) 23:32, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

All I see is someone who is refusing to improve articles and is wasting everyone's time by gaslighting, grandstanding, politicking, policying, etc. for god only knows why. nihlus kryik (talk) 23:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm citing policy and not making personal attacks. You're simply name-calling and tossing insults. And I think anyone can see which of us of has a long record of improving articles.--Tenebrae (talk) 23:36, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not arguing indefinitely, as I've stated many times I highly believe secondary sources should be required on all season articles, not just season 9. I'm sure there's plenty available. Brocicle (talk) 22:46, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, reaching a consensus does not automatically mean reliable sources are unusable because "that's not the consensus that was reached". You do not need consensus for the use of reliable secondary sources. Brocicle (talk) 22:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We need a consensus on the progress tables!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I know this is going to sound like another tedious rant about the progress tables that do/don't feature the HIGH and LOWS marks, but I'm getting a little fed-up with the constant changes and editing wars. Here's a thought that I can hopefully offer, and potentially get reviewed on; the contestants progress table NOW only features the white coloured SAFE, the beige coloured SAFE, the winners, the BTM2 and the ELIM. Is it fair to add reliable sources that identify contestants of that episode that were given a LOW critique and a HIGH critique in the "Episodes" panel, that way relating back to the progress chart?

For example, Episode 3 in Season 9 had HIGH critiques for contestants Peppermint and Valentina, whilst Farrah Moan received LOW critiques but didn't end up on the bottom. There are reliable sources that justify these claims, such as A.V. Club, Vulture Magazine and Slant Magazine. I mean, there wouldn't be reviews from these top sources for nothing right, but unfortunately, unlike many other shows, they have their own article on Wikipedia of the episode that detail the results, winners, etc. So the results for each episode are fitted into each season of RuPaul's Drag Race, which should encapsulate mainly everything noted in every episode episode, which are reflected through reviews by top sources, ENOUGH for us to add the HIGHS and LOWS in the article (if that makes sense?) OR, can we make very small detailed synopsis about the results in each episode (in the Episode sub-heading) with verified sources such as the ones above?

I personally feel that there is enough reliable sources to cover the HIGHS and LOWS, and add them to the chart progress, because ironically, there is no sources identifying the winners of each challenge, the bottom two contestants, and who got eliminated, along with their leaving message, BUT YET they are add in the article? (We all know who won, who got eliminated etc., but isn't that a double standard of WP:Original research?) Just adding the sources to each episode in the sub-heading, which is enough to cover the progress chart above if people want to check the links. I'm NOT trying to stir anything or create an issue here, I'm just trying to level out everything because it's becoming a war on Wikipedia for this television series. Hopefully this helps and I can get a good understanding WITHOUT any issues or negative comments. CaliforniaDreamsFan (talk · contribs} 05:04, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• Returning comment: I created a table that showcases references in the episode column above the chart, which could be a possible way to indicate the contestant progress by the review(s) by one or a variety of reliable sources. Or effectively, the references can be added to the episodes sypnosis int he episodes sub-heading? Support or Oppose people? Just curious to know, SO we can hopefully move on. CaliforniaDreamsFan (talk · contribs} 05:23, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

New Contestant Format Proposal

Contestant Progress Contestant 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 BeBe Zahara Benet SAFE SAFE WIN HIGH BTM2 WIN Winner Guest Nina Flowers WIN HIGH HIGH HIGH LOW HIGH Runner-Up Miss C Rebecca Glasscock LOW HIGH SAFE BTM2 WIN BTM2 Eliminated Guest Shannel SAFE HIGH BTM2 LOW HIGH ELIM Guest Ongina HIGH WIN HIGH WIN ELIM Guest Jade SAFE SAFE LOW ELIM Guest Akashia BTM2 BTM2 ELIM Guest Tammie Brown SAFE ELIM Guest Victoria "Porkchop" Parker ELIM Guest   The contestant won RuPaul's Drag Race.   The contestant was the runner-up of RuPaul's Drag Race.   The contestant was eliminated in third place without lip-syncing.   The contestant was voted Miss Congeniality by viewers.   The contestant won a challenge.   The contestant didn't win the challenge, but received high critiques and was ultimately chosen safe.   The contestant didn't fall in the bottom two, but received low critiques and was ultimately chosen safe.   The contestant was in the bottom two.   The contestant was eliminated.   The contestant returned as a guest for the finale episode. References

Opinions?

• • Oppose constitutes original research. Should remain as is. Unless explicitly stated like season 9 episode 1 who was in the top. Also high /low is against wiki policy. Brocicle (talk) 06:26, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Strongly support: First, the discussion above hardly forms a solid consensus among the editors of the site. As WP:OR states:

Further examples of primary sources include archeological artifacts, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, investigative reports, trial/litigation in any country (including material — which relates to either the trial or to any of the parties involved in the trial — published/authored by any involved party, before, during or after the trial), editorials, columns, blogs, opinion pieces, or (depending on context) interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; original philosophical works; religious scripture; ancient works, even if they cite earlier lost writings; tomb plaques; and artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos and television programs.

It can easily be determined who the highs and the lows are in the episode by what the judges say. "You girls represent the best and worst performers this week." If Eureka gets positive remarks, it does not mean you are performing original research or even synthesis by declaring she is in the top. The episode is the primary source itself, so nothing further needs to be done. Compare it to Project Runway (season 8). The table is there to quickly summarize the events of the show. Using ambiguous comments such as "The contestant received critiques from the judges but was ultimately declared safe" forces the reader to wonder if it was positive or negative. It also places on equal footing the performance of the top queens and bottom queens, which is deceiving. At worst, we could use {{cite episode}} to show we are referencing an episode, but this no high/low crap is just overzealous bureaucratic nonsense that is keeping people from improving the articles. WP:IAR. nihlus kryik (talk) 07:34, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• • comment see the discussion on season 9 talk page under HIGH and LOW. Many editors have stated why it can be considered as original research. Regardless of if you think the high/low is crap it is still against policy and cannot be used. Brocicle (talk) 08:39, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• It is not original research. nihlus kryik (talk) 00:03, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• Seconded. It's not original research. Anonymous5454 03:46, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

• It is but you're entitled to your interpretation. Brocicle (talk) 03:02, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Weak Oppose: I gave a Third Opinion on the talk page for season 9 recently and I came to the conclusion that the issue could be interpreted either way. Some editors would likely believe that it constitutes original research and others would believe that since the judges say something similar to what "High" and "Low" indicate then it's acceptable to include. I've been reading all the arguments on the talk page for season 9 about "High" and "Low" ever since I originally gave my Third Opinion and I'm still unclear on what should be done. While "High" and "Low" entries for the table would appear to be in the best interests of the reader, the argument against it; WP:OR is not to be taken lightly and I don't think this is an acceptable situation for WP:IAR. It's a weak oppose from me to side with established policy of WP:OR until something drastically changes - such as RuPaul explicitly mentioning who is "High" and "Low" in an episode. -=Troop=- (talk) 12:56, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Weak Support: I'd change HIGH and LOW to the lightblue/pink SAFEs but I've always maintained that if there were sources then it'd be fine. Oath2order (talk) 16:27, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Support: Especially if there are reliable sources available, this format is easily the best. The proposed format also leaves much less ambiguity. TheKaphox T 10:11, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Strong Support: I didn't even get to watch last weeks episode, and I can't even look on the page to see who was in the top and who was in the bottom. I still don't know who was in the top and who was in the bottom because of this stupid "new format". It looks horrible and the color you chose looks white. Also you're saying that color is for judges critique. And then you have half the people who got a judges critique on that stupid color. If we can't have the highs and lows then we should have the color of the high and low and a safe text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.126.187.36 (talk) 15:15, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Strong Support: I don't even know why this is up for debate. The current format is ambiguous and confusing, and given the language laid out in the rules relating to original research that other users have cited repeatedly, including material sourced to reputable publications absolutely does not violate WP:OR. Anonymous5454 03:44, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Strong Support: Both @Seanmurpha: and @Umimmak: have indicated their support for the high/low system on season 9's talk page. Anonymous5454 (talk) 19:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support: Yeah I don't understand how it could possibly be considered original research if it's not something the Wikipedia Editor came to themself but something in a source. I get how maybe people don't want to treat these as official classifications, but if there's a broad consensus among reviewers that should be noted. Plus, Carson recaps the show; as a judge his reviews presumably meet whatever standard the naysayers have.Umimmak (talk) 20:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Strongly support: The current format is confusing. "The contestant received judges critiques and was ultimately chosen to be safe." First of all after episode 05 or 06, all the contestants receive their critiques. Second: If an entire group is safe from elimination meaning they were "HIGH", how do you replace it with something that indicates those people received their critiques? They didn't, they were HIGH and safe without receiving their critiques. I said it before and i'll say it again, i'd fully support if they replace the HIGHs for the light-blue "SAFE", indicating that someone was one of the bests but didn't one, but the current format is trash and it needs to be changed. (User talk:Screamqueer) 23:57, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

• comment half of that doesn't even make sense. Brocicle (talk) 03:02, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Just to clarify where we're at, there are currently nine users advocating for the high/low system (Myself, Seanmurpha, Umimmak, Screamqueer, IP 141.126.187.36, TheKaphox, Oath2order, Nihlus Kryik, and CaliforniaDreamsFan). One user is mildly opposed to the system (Trooper1005). Brocicle is the only user firmly against the system. It seems as if we've reached WP:CONSENSUS. Anonymous5454 (talk) 03:55, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

consensus isn't based on the number of votes. I highly suggest you read WP:CONSENSUS before concluding that one is apparent. Brocicle (talk) 04:29, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

• • Strongly support: @brocicle if you still feel that it is WP:OR then please explain how so or further elaborate.

Please refer to this table, nihlus kryik and their first argument stated on this page. I would agree that the current system is ambiguous and confusing and that Wikipedia users cannot get a quick accurate read of the contestant's progress throughout the competition. Therefore rendering the table useless. Also, ummimak if you don't mind me asking where does the judge Carson Kressley recap the show? He would be a great citation for the future tables. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanmurpha (talk • contribs) 08:31, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

@Seanmurpha: he's doing the recaps for EW this season. Umimmak (talk) 15:56, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Ive explained how multiple times and so have other users, I'm not repeating myself again. Brocicle (talk) 11:34, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Consensus reached

At this point it is clear that consensus has been formed in support of the proposed changes. Further edits should be made that align to this consensus. Brocicle, I suggest you avoid tendentious editing and reach out to an administrator if you feel further discussion is required. Thanks. nihlus kryik (talk) 13:13, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Someone with only 14 edits should not decide if a consensus has been reached. As it clearly states in WP:CONSENSUS, consensus is NOT based on votes. Brocicle (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:BITE. Oath2order (talk) 20:39, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I have been editing wikis and Wikipedia for over 10 years now, so I fail to see how my edit count is relevant in any capacity. nihlus kryik (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

No consensus reached explanation and compromise proposal

Two of the supports are based on personal opinions on the structure rather than on policy. The rest are supporting with the basis that they don't agree that it is WP:OR without providing a genuine reason as to why it should be implemented. Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy per WP:CONSENSUS. Three editors other than myself have stated why it can fall under WP:OR over on the season 9 talk page as well as the use of but we have sources and how they also may constitute original research based on the critiques being open to individual interpretation. The only 100% reliable source we currently have is Carson Kressley's recap, but he is not a judge on each episode therefore his recap can only be valid for the critiques he's present for.

As a compromise I suggest we use Carson's recap for the episodes he is present on to determine the tops and the bottoms of the week and use the blue/pink colours WITHOUT high and low. And find if Ross, Michelle, Ru, or even the guest judges for the week have recapped the episodes themselves to be able to include the episodes Carson is not present for.

I want this resolved as much as everyone so put forth your ideas so we reach an actual resolution that follows the policy and guidelines of Wikipedia. Brocicle (talk) 23:01, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

A consensus has already been reached. WP:DEADHORSE. nihlus kryik (talk) 23:14, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

According to you who improperly decided closure. Brocicle (talk) 23:52, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

@Brocicle:: I agree with you using Carson's recap of the episodes as he is the most primary source to identify the ranks of HIGH and LOW. However, certain publications on episodes, such as this one for episode 4 by Slant Magazine or A.V. Club relay specific notes of how the judges themselves are critiquing certain girls (i.e. "Nina and Eureka receive great notices, but unfortunately for them, they’re on the losing show.") or ("Peppermint’s personality alone saves her from the bottom two.") This is not of bias reviewing, but it does avoid WP:OR because it is a notable and reliable source, and identifies key points from the judges without any "personal" opinions (along with Carson's recaps too). We can add a maximum of three sources in one reference that each specify a neutral point of view of the judges critiques (WP:OP), but I understand what your saying. Having said that, I believe it covers the basis of original research and verifiability. CaliforniaDreamsFan (talk · contribs} 01:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@CaliforniaDreamsFan: I appreciate your response. I love a neutral source regarding these issues (as you can probably tell) but how do we translate the neutrality of the sources to determine tops and bottoms for the weeks Carson isn't a judge without making it look like a personal opinion? Brocicle (talk) 02:27, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@Brocicle: I've just updated the contestant progress chart with the sources on the top row; each reference has about 2-to-3 sources, including Carson's recap with Entertainment Weekly to base it on a neutral point of view from these sources. So far, only Slant Magazine and The A.V. Club have specific commentary—without any bias or personal opinions—about the contestants that are harshly critiqued or positively critiqued. So with those two sources and Carson's blog, I can only assume that it keeps a neutral point of view without getting into unnecessary view points. CaliforniaDreamsFan (talk · contribs} 02:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

After looking over the sources I can definitely agree with the neutral view but I still disagree with having high and low except for the first episode but I suppose I can wash it under the bridge just to push on. If this is the compromised standard sources such as these should also be added to previous seasons when found, which shouldn't be too hard for the later seasons but may be a little more difficult for say seasons 1-3. Brocicle (talk) 05:17, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Examples

These are just examples of what I've been talking about regarding using sources to verified neutral points from magazines such as Slant Magazine, Entertainment Weekly and The A.V. Club, amongst others.

• Episode one cited by Slant Magazine: "RuPaul doesn't even bother to isolate this week's bottom queens, instead directly crowning Nina Bo'Nina this week's winner over Sasha and Eureka."
• Episode two cited by The A.V. Club: "Drag vlogger Charlie Hides has similar trouble making an impression this week, and ends up in the bottom three."
• Episode three cited by Entertainment Weekly and Slant Magazine: "It was a close call between Farrah and Aja when it came down to the final elimination.", and "She's joined in the bottom two by not Farrah, but Aja."
• Episode four cited by Slant Magazine: "Peppermint’s personality alone saves her from the bottom two."

These are just examples of what is SIMPLY exemplified and stated from these sources that specify the result of the queens LOW and HIGH score (I'm not putting the high ones up there because it's pretty self-explanatory from what I'm saying.) CaliforniaDreamsFan (talk · contribs} 02:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have reverted today's unilateral edits by User:Nihlus Kryik, who added HIGHS and LOWs without giving any RS secondary sources. The closing statement is very clear that without these sources, specific to each claim, that stating HIGH and LOW is OR. No such cites were given at his edits. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:11, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

And I have reverted your disruptive edits. It is clear that consensus is to use the show as a primary source and to use secondary sources when the judge's comments are possibly ambiguous. Since the primary source is implied, it is a requirement for you to supply sources on the reverts you are making. nihlus kryik (talk) 23:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The editor who closed the discussion said reliable secondary sources can be used for high/low marks. No sources, no high or low. Brocicle (talk) 00:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

I fail to see how this be continuously construed any other way. It was clearly stated that the show can be used as a primary source. When the judges comments are possibly ambigous, we should rely on available secondary sources. Since the primary sources don't need to be cited, anything that requires secondary sources needs to be cited before being included in the article. It's clear as day. nihlus kryik (talk) 01:10, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

"But the question here isn't even the harder question of relying upon the show itself (which might involve questions of WP:OR and is very fact dependent on what exactly was said), instead what is proposed is to rely upon reliable secondary sources which state it directly of which there can be no question of WP:OR". That is what the editor who closed this discussion stated. Secondary sources are required for high low marks. Brocicle (talk) 04:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Even as to relying on the show itself is a primary source, which we could rely upon. Of course we have to be very careful in such a case not to do WP:OR. We could do this all day. I've already explained when a secondary source is necessary and who needs to provide it. nihlus kryik (talk) 05:53, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, COULD rely on upon, but who decides when a secondary source should be used? You apparently. You do not WP:OWN any of the articles and you're being extremely stubborn. There's nothing wrong with adding a reliable secondary source, especailly with something as ambiguous as progress comments. Those who haven't seen the show or the episode can be linked via the secondary sources for further reading regarding critiques. Per WP:PSTS secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. Brocicle (talk) 10:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Also, specifically in the Primary section of WP:PSTS " primary source mayonehly be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. " Not every one has access to the primary source. Secondary sources are necessary. Deal with it. Brocicle (talk) 10:52, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

As the closer: The question as to primary sources was not a part of the RfC because the question presented by the person who opened the RfC did not ask that. They asked ONLY about reliable secondary sources. That doesn't mean that primary sources such as the show cannot be allowed, merely that it was not a part of the RfC. -Obsidi (talk) 14:29, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Obsidi Is absolutely right. Any further debate is redundant and constitutes WP:DE. Anonymous5454 (talk) 18:22, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

In Season 3, Episode 6 (Snatch Game), per the critique summary in Talk, the Top 3, Bottom 3, and Safe contestants are explicitly cited by RuPaul, but editors are constantly editing contestant progress table to obscure this. In a discussion where the ultimate goal is to communicate facts to the reader, they're willfully removing factually correct information from the table.Fratboy96 (talk) 19:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

This topic has had a lot of discussion over the last almost year. It's overly clear that a small few users are imposing something that goes against the strong majority. Those users are weakly citing the few sentences in the wikipedia policies that ostensibly supports their overbearing actions. I've read the policies, and they are breaking as many as they are trying to enforce, if not more. This is a low-importance wikipedia page, the content should be enjoyable by all fans who choose to visit the site. I say we look into community banning some of these disruptive users. Jacksm3 (talk) 15:57, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

There is a consensus. "High" and "low" may be used if there is a reliable source cited. If not, "low" is used for the contestant who is chosen last to be safe. End of discussion. Brocicle (talk) 21:01, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

What's up with the uncertainty in terms of contestants' names?

Can someone explain the uncertainty of which name to use for a contestant, say Carmen Carrera? I get that she is a woman now who would preferably be called by her new name, but why and how does the premise 'Ages and names stated are at time of contest' just doesn't cut it? Thank you! k_cms (talk) 15:52, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

There is no uncertainty, it's simple, ages and names are stated at the time of the contest because that's the name they competed and auditioned under. Brocicle (talk) 00:35, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Ratings charts

I've seen some great ratings charts (see The_Walking_Dead_(TV_series)#Ratings, for example), and I'm wondering if someone knows how to create similar visuals for RPDR? ----Another Believer _(Talk) 01:55, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Category sorting

Page watchers are invited to Category talk:RuPaul's Drag Race contestants to discuss how category entries should be sorted. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:12, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Season 9 -- Miss Congeniality

The article currently says, "Valentina won Miss Congeniality." Didn't Ru and contestants decide the award was actually Fan Favorite? We might note this somehow. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:30, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Another Believer: Valentina was still given the money associated with the title, and she appeared during the bit in the Season 10 finale to announce that season's Miss Congeniality. It would be worth putting this as a note, with a source supporting it, but the whole "Miss Fan Favorite" thing is primarily a joke. So for that reason, I still think she should be listed as Miss Congeniality for Season 9. Also I do not think Ru ever said anything either way about it (from my memory of the reunion, it was only the contestants pushing the Fan Favorite thing). Aoba47 (talk) 22:12, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

"Gallery of winners"

Re: "Gallery of winners" -- I wonder if 1) these images could be added to the table above, where winners are also mentioned, and 2) if kept separate, should be in chronological order (as opposed to reverse chronological order). ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:48, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd just add a small sized photo of the winner in their corresponding season section rather than put them in the table. Brocicle (talk) 17:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm fine with this. Galleries are discouraged anyways. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:16, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done Look ok? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:30, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Looks great! Brocicle (talk) 02:56, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Just while we're at it the prizes make the table so uncomfortable to read and does not make the table mobile user friendly. Do we really need the prizes listed? Brocicle (talk) 17:48, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Transgender Contestants Allowed?

Although transgender competitors have partaken in the show, based on an interview with the Guardian, RuPaul can be quoted saying he would "probably not" allow a contestant who had come out as transgender prior to the show to compete. Can I make this edit to the page? (Apologies in advance, I have never edited before. I just wanted to update this information if at all possible.) Thank you!Tarastrasser (talk) 18:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)---Tarastrasser

References

@Tarastrasser: I would think such an expansion would need to include secondary sources -- RuPaul's comments in the interview are primary, so sources discussing his comments in the interview would be necessary as well -- as well as discussion of (from secondary sources) subsequent statements including his apology on Twitter later. Umimmak (talk) 23:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

"Format" section

Currently, the "Format" section has a significant amount of content related to transgender contestants. I don't mind the article having this information in general, but should this be moved to another location? Readers should be given a basic overview of the show's format without a detailed breakdown of gender identities. Do other editors agree, disagree, or have suggestions? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:53, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Well there could be a brief "Contestants" section with a link to List of RuPaul's Drag Race contestants (I think right now the only link from this article to that one is in the navbox at the bottom.) It could talk about racial, geographic, national, etc., diversity as secondary sources have mentioned in addition to contestants who are trans? Umimmak (talk) 18:11, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I like this idea, as long as all content is sourced appropriately. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:48, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Moved some content in this edit, and very much welcome additions and further improvement. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:20, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Phrasing re Peppermint

On the topic of transgender contestants, I don't really understand this part: Peppermint is the first drag race contestant to have been out as a transgender woman prior to the airing of her season, but after filming.[16] Although transgender women have competed in the show, none of the contestants had come out as transgender prior to being casted on the show. Is there any evidence that Peppermint wasn't out in her audition process? Or that she wasn't out until after filming? This is just a confusing way to phrase things, especially since she talks about being trans in her MTQ and in various episodes. Where does it say she wasn't out before she was cast? Umimmak (talk) 01:16, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Didn't she come out at latest during filming? A lot of sources report her coming out to her fellow contestants in an episode that aired in April 2017: [1] [2] [3]

In an article dated April 29, 2017, Medium says, In 2012, drag performer Peppermint came out as transgender to her close family and friends ... As a season nine contestant on RuPaul’s Drag Race — perhaps the world’s largest drag stage — Friday evening, Peppermint came out to her fellow contestants and to an audience of millions. [4]

I could try dig out a written source if need be, but I seem to remember another episode where she talks about running into trouble while presenting as a woman in the airport in Russia 8 months prior to filming.

In the source at the end of the statement you quoted [ 16 ], Peppermint says, I’ve actually been out for awhile but this is my first time speaking about it with this group of people, so I guess it’s a coming out! So basically the statement made in that sentence isn't supported by its ref, and I think it should be changed to reflect that she was indeed out to some people before filming and that she came out to her fellow contestants on the show. Armadillopteryx^talk 09:16, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah that definitely seems more accurate. And the article for Peppermint (drag queen) reads Though other transgender women have competed on RuPaul's Drag Race, she was the first to be out prior to the show airing. so that seems to contradict this article's All transgender contestants have come out as transgender either during the course of the competition, or after their respective season had ended. Umimmak (talk) 09:36, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Interestingly, the latter statement seems to be true from the perspective of other contestants but false from the perspective of viewers. She did come out to her competitors during the course of the competition (filming). MTQ (where she is out) was filmed afterward. But of course MTQ is released to the general public before episode 1 of the season, so she was indeed the first contestant out prior to airing. I think that in the sentence All transgender contestants have come out as transgender either during the course of the competition, or after their respective season had ended, we at least need to replace "competition" and "season" with "filming," but much more ideally we can scrap and rewrite it entirely. She was, after all, out in some capacity and to some people long before filming. Armadillopteryx^talk 10:22, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

She came out to her competitors mid-filming, but I thought she was out to production / to the judges / in her audition video? In this interview she says (my bold) I knew that there had been other fabulous trans women who have been involved in the show but I hadn't quite seen an example of anyone else who had done it the way that I did it from the beginning, so I didn't know exactly how to navigate the situation. And to me it seems more relevent to know if production knew when they cast her vs when she had a conversation about it with her competitors. Like, it doesn't seem to be a Monica Beverly Hillz situation where production / the judges didn't know until S05E02. I'm not really sure though. Umimmak (talk) 10:41, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it's more relevant to know what production (rather than other contestants) knew. It's not really clear to me in this link what she means by the way that I did it from the beginning, though; from context I guess she's talking about production, but the wording is pretty ambiguous. I've seen some Tweets from Willam that indicate Peppermint was out to production before filming, but I can't seem to dig up a reliable source at the moment. Armadillopteryx^talk 10:55, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Guess this is getting closer: Peppermint entered the contest as an out trans woman, while Monica Beverly Hillz came out as trans on the main stage in season five. [5] Armadillopteryx^talk 11:06, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Color for Miss C in episode descriptions

Not sure where to put this (should there be a Wikiproject for the Drag Race franchise like Big Brother?), but I figured this would be a good place. Can there be consensus to change the font color in the episode description box to something other than aqua? (e.g., Miss Congeniality: Monét X Change). Aqua is too light a color to read as text and this goes against MOS:CONTRAST. Thanks. Umimmak (talk) 08:56, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

You shouldn't need consensus to change the font colour if it isn't legible, part of the guidelines on colour use. :) Brocicle (talk) 09:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Well I'm trying to get consensus or at least ideas for what color it should be. And maybe people disagree with my judgement that it violates CONTRAST since it's been this way for a while. Umimmak (talk) 21:15, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Redirects for specials

I'm not if RuPaul's Drag Race: Green Screen Christmas received enough secondary coverage for a standalone article, or if RuPaul's Drag Race Holi-slay Spectacular will either, so I've redirected them for now until more research is completed. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:46, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I went ahead and created a stub for RuPaul's Drag Race Holi-slay Spectacular. @Brocicle and Ratherbe2000: Feel free to help expand, if you're interested, or add mention of the contestants' participation on their respective articles. I noticed Sonique is the only one without an article... perhaps this will put her over the notability threshold? Time will tell. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:07, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

I'd never even heard of the first special until today so I probably won't be much help with that one. I can definitely pitch in for this year's though. Thank you! Brocicle (talk) 00:32, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Great! Thanks, ---Another Believer _(Talk) 02:04, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Move Shangela page?

Resolved

Over at Talk:Shangela Laquifa Wadley, I've asked if the Shangela Laquifa Wadley article should be moved to simply Shangela. I don't know anyone who refers to her by her full name. Page watchers are invited to weigh in. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:20, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Update: I've submitted a move request at Talk:Shangela Laquifa Wadley and invite page watchers to weigh in on the move discussion. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:59, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:RuPaul's Drag Race for deletion

Resolved

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:RuPaul's Drag Race is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:RuPaul's Drag Race until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 02:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Tyra Sánchez (fan art).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:38, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• Deleted. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:28, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

"Related programming" section?

Should the "Untucked", "Whatcha Packin", and "The Pit Stop" subsections, currently under "Format", be moved to a new section lower down called "Related programming", or similar? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:22, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Flag icons

I just reverted an edit adding many flag icons to the article. I see some still remain. Are these really necessary? Drag race doesn't have people representing nations, so I see the icons as inappropriate. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:38, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Clear violation of WP:MOSFLAG. Nihlus 14:42, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I removed the remaining flags with this edit. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:44, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

UK series

I've redirected RuPaul's Drag Race UK and RuPaul's Drag Race (UK TV series) to this article, per https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-46452824. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:17, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I've converted the redirect into a stub, and I think we can start migrating content over to RuPaul's Drag Race UK. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:51, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

WikiProject

WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race has been created, and you're invited to join! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Progress Tables

Should the progress tables be changed. The episodes where the queens are judged as teams, they are all placed as HIGH, with judges critiques, even though they didnt have any judges critiques. Should they be changed, and have people who were critiqued have the HIGH and LOW. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.108.21 (talk) 23:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Do we need the paragraph about guest judges?

Do we really need this entire paragraph about guest judges?

"Prior to the grand finale, the three main judges are joined by celebrity guest judges each week. Guest judges have included Pam Tillis, Paula Abdul, Pamela Anderson, Eve, Ariana Grande, Miley Cyrus, Troye Sivan, Neil Patrick Harris, Kathy Griffin, Debbie Harry, Khloé Kardashian, La Toya Jackson, Adam Lambert, Demi Lovato, Bob Mackie, Rose McGowan, Olivia Newton-John, Rebecca Romijn, Gigi Hadid, Sharon Osbourne, Dan Savage, John Waters, Michelle Williams, Candis Cayne, Martha Wash, Natalie Cole, Dita Von Teese, Niecy Nash, Debbie Reynolds, Vanessa Williams, Wilmer Valderrama, The Pointer Sisters, Trina, Leah Remini, The B-52's, Kesha, Shania Twain, Graham Norton, Christina Aguilera, Lady Gaga, and Tiffany Pollard."

This seems like excessive detail and an arbitrary list of celebrity names. I think we should mention inclusion of guest judges in general, but get rid of the long list of names. Thoughts? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:32, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

This subsequent edit further demonstrates how the list of name is subjective and will continue to be expanded as the series goes on. I say we save specific names for the season articles. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:41, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Maybe instead of a single sentence/list it could be broken down into multiple sentences--particularly in a way which showcases the variety of people who have been guest judges. Like, "Actors who have been guest judges include: ...", "From the world of sports, ...". I also think ideally some secondary source would be used to determine which guest judges are worth mentioning -- i.e., a source other than just an individual episode recap such as this discussing Broadway actors who have been on. Umimmak (talk) 19:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

· That would maybe be a great idea to make list of judges on each season and All-stars.-- Happypillsjr ✉ 05:46, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race Collaboration of the Month

	WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race's Collaboration of the Month for February 2019: Victoria "Porkchop" Parker

---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Delta Work is the collaboration of the month for March. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:44, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Snatch Game is the collaboration of the month for April. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:58, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Collaboration of the Month, May 2019: Ongina

	WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race's Collaboration of the Month for May 2019: Ongina

---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:35, 9 May 2019 (UTC)