Talk:Royal elections in Poland

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved to Royal elections in Poland. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Free election (Polish throne) → Free election — Relisting again (see above) to seek consensus on the alternative proposal below. Andrewa (talk) 18:36, 13 April 2011 (UTC) Relisted. For discussion of Royal election in Poland as an alternative. --rgpk (comment) 16:01, 6 April 2011 (UTC) Request for a technical revert of a controversial move of a long-time stable article. Few months ago the free election article was moved to its current title (Free election (Polish throne)) with the rationale free election is the basis of democracy and demands an article of its own. This shows a misunderstanding on multiple levels. First of all, free election in democracy is not a political science term, it is just a phrase like "good election" or "just election" or such (I am not sure if Fair election deserves to be a separate article, but it should not be confused with free election). Second, "free election" is the appropriate name for the specific elections as practiced in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (sample ref). There is no need for any disambig. This was done without any discussion, for an article that has been stable for over six years. Further, the analysis of "what links here" shows that almost all if not all links to free election refer to this article, yet free election was redirected to election, without the "free election redirects here" disambig warning, nor was the link to free election added to Election (disambiguation). This shows that the editor moving the article is unfamiliar with our Manual of Style (as in effect for the last three months the article on free election was "hidden", and many "link-to's", broken. As the redirect has been (unintentionally) salted, only an admin can restore this article to its proper name. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:42, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Not the primary usage in English. I wonder how this ever came to sit at "free election" considering the uses in English for that term [1]. It should redirect to voting system, much like fair election does. 65.93.12.101 (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
  • As I said, there is a meaningless common phrase, and a specialist use of the term. The meaningless common phrase is not encyclopedic, the specialist term is. It's like many other terms, for example, red flag which has more significance then just being a flag of red color, and is correctly located at red flag, instead of something weird like red flag (socialism- and communism-related). I am sure there is even a term for such a phrase, but it eludes me currently. PS. Another example: most people know Scram as a verb, but on Wikipedia, it rightly has a different, encyclopedic context. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:38, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

A "red flag" is also something that has been raised in relation to this article, and rightly in my view. The term "free election" should be given a disambiguation page (if only to preserve the connection to this article) but should not automatically redirect to this page. Walkinxyz (talk) 04:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd support a disambig if free election had any other encyclopedic meaning. Since it doesn't (or till it doesn't), it should default here, as anybody looking for election will, well, just type in "election". Do we seriously need to have a disambig saying: "free election can refer to 1) free election in the Polish historical context 2) just a regular election? Do you think we should have a disambig at "red flag" directing people to chose between the red flag used in the encyclopedic context (as related to socialism/communism) and articles on red and flag? Here's an even better example. Free software. For most people, free software means free as in they don't have to pay for it. That's the "common usage". By using the rationale of most people who commented so far, we should redirect free software to software (and by yours, create a disambig). Free float refers to a public float in finances, not a a free float of rootbeer... Free house has a disambig, but it doesn't mention house. Need I go on? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:16, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Your distinction between "encyclopedic" and "common" meaning is invidious and unsupportable in this context. The problem is that "free elections" have a meaning and history of which this article itself is obviously a very small (though perhaps significant) part. Yet the technical term "free election" in relation one particular historical instance of elections is so far from exhausting the significance of the term (including for political scientists, contra your argument, and for non-governmental organizations and anyone else who studies them) that it does injustice to the history and meaning of both "election" and "freedom," which are in fact inseparably tied to one another in the modern context. Your misunderstanding on this point is itself almost reason enough for a new article, though I'm not exactly sure why the obvious has to be stated to you. Elections have become an important and even constituting aspect of the modern practice of freedom – they are one of the central means by which political freedom is expressed. It naturally arises as a question (an "encyclopedic" question if there ever was one) what constitutes a free – hence legitimate, and hence deserving of the name – election. Freedom is not an essential criterion of software, houses, root beer floats, etc. and therefore, e.g. "free software" does not redirect to software. But an election that isn't "free" is, in fact, a meaningless election – an election in name alone. Therefore the term "free election" deserves, at minimum, a redirect to a page on "Free and fair elections" (my preference) or else a disambiguation page explaining that a "free and fair" election is a political election that is free of outside interference and is substantially and procedurally fair.

Colours are very important to flags, but the meaning of "red" or "blue" or "yellow" itself is not intrinsically related to one particular flag or another, nor does the particular colour of a flag tell you whether the term "flag" is at all legitimately applied. And the symbol of a "red flag" has a specific meaning today, but if you look at that article, it encompasses the entire history of the use of red flags, and so "red flag" does not necessarily need a disambiguation page. This article, on the contrary, deals with a very narrow historical case of a "free election" – a case that was termed "free election" in just the compound sense that you complain applies to "free elections" as commonly understood, and then became a conventional way of referring to some particular historical period in Poland. Unfortunately (or rather fortunately), it then became the way that we understand elections themselves.

You are trying to fence in the meaning of something that is inherently larger than what you believe it to be. The article move that you claim is controversial, is not at all, however problematic the way it was done. The confounding of "free election" with one particular historical instance of elections, on the other hand, is. Walkinxyz (talk) 01:09, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

While I could take an issue with some of what you wrote, how about you do try to write an article on free and fair election? Then this discussion could end with a gain for the project. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's a very good idea. When I find time I will start that article. That said, I think the project is already going to gain from the discussion here. So while I disagree with your proposal (and may not understand the full meaning of wolna elekcja, despite my Polish background) I don't think it a waste of time that you raised so many red flags. Walkinxyz (talk) 07:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Note that freedom and fairness of election are not the same thing, and you can have an election that is free, but not fair. A free election (wolne wybory in Polish, as opposed to the historical notion of wolna elekcja) is one that is "competitive in that electors are free to vote and are offered a range of choices". A fair election is one without intimidation, fraud, or other "irregularities in the voting process" (Democracy index 2010). — Kpalion^(talk) 17:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose The phrase "free and fair elections" is common in English, if less meaningful than it should be due to its frequent invocation by the bullies of imperial capitalism. Even so, the notion of a "free" election is a much more common usage than "good" or "just" (I have never heard these terms applied to an election in English.) It is indeed a very significant term in English, one worthy of at the very least a redirect to an article on "Free and fair" elections, or just elections as such. Walkinxyz (talk) 04:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
  • It doesn't matter how common it is, if it is not encyclopedic. "Won elections" or "Lost elections" are even more common, but they have no articles, you know? PS. That's because they don't have any encyclopedic meaning. Free election does, as this article illustrates - only it happens to be a specialistic, not common, usage. It is, however, the primary usage in encyclopedic contexts, and 99% of the "what links to free election" demonstrate. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. The Polish elected king system went out of use over 2 centuries ago and has gone downstream in the flow of history. The usual modern meaning of "free election" is "an election which is free". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:42, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
  • And the usual meaning of the red flag is just a "flag that is red", but still, we have a dedicated article on the red flag. Common use of unencyclopedic terms is meaningless here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

• The nomination rationale is fine and on the basis of inbound links alone I'd have speedied the redirect if I'd seen this sooner. Replies above have little basis in our guidelines; all that's needed is a hatnote to get people to election if need be. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 10:20, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose - I noticed this a long time ago but did not get to fixing it. Nobody in their right mind will think electing Polish kings in the 17th century when told about "free elections". I today's world "free elections" = democratic elections. Incoming links can and should be fixed (with AWB will take just a few minutes). Renata (talk) 14:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Nobody, just the experts who have used this term thousands of times in books and journals (check Google Books, add Poland or Commonwealth to the search, for example). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:59, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Search for "free election" Poland: results on (not) democratic elections in the past 100 years (and particularly 1989) far outweigh historical royal elections, even with "poland" included as a keyword. Search for "free election" in Google books shows no (scanned quickly, might have missed one or two) results related to Polish Kings in the first 100 results.
    • BTW, I don't think "(Polish throne)" is the best disambiguator. Something like Free election in the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth or Free election of Kings of Poland would be better, IMHO. Renata (talk) 17:45, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
      • Well, the common but unencyclopedic usage is common, up to and including Poland. Search for "free election" Poland king or such and the results improve vastly. I don't think we need to look for a different disambig; the main (encyclopedic) free election article is still preferable. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:01, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Move to Royal elections in Poland instead. — Kpalion^(talk) 17:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
  • That would be a solution... if the term was used in more than 5 or so publications (Google Books and mediawiki links are broken for quotes, just to Google Books and search for "Royal elections in Poland"). The term used in literature is, clearly and consistently, "free election(s)". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

  [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. They're not broken, for me at least. In any case, it took me a few seconds to find the phrase "royal election" used in English-language books on Polish history. Not surprisingly. The term is much more descriptive than the ambiguous "free election" which which is typically put in quotation marks to show it's only a literal translation of the Polish term. — Kpalion^(talk) 06:57, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

  Weird (links). But perhaps you are right and royal election in Poland would be better (note, singular is preferred to plural). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 07:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. Apart from the more free-floating usage of "free election", there are at least two more specific historic usages involving election of rulers; [7], "The Bohemian and Hungarian estates had persistently defended their right to a free election of a new ruler" and in medieval Germany too; [8] "In October 1076 a powerful coalition of German princes met to discuss the election of a new German king..." No, WP articles on these topics do not currently exist AFAICT. Do we defer to the existing number of WP incoming links, or to the possibilities? I'd rather we kept it at Polish throne for now. Novickas (talk) 23:52, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
  • But are you sure that those contexts don't simply mean "an election that is free", i.e. the common, uncencyclopedic usage of this phrase? In the examples you cited I see nothing to indicate the usage is more then generic. Again, there is the need to distinguish an unencyclopedic election that is free, commonly referred to as free election, from the encyclopedic institution of a free election in Poland. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:30, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
    • The choice of Henry V's successor exemplified at once the principle of free election and the influence of the clergy. The death of Henry without a direct heir gave an opportunity of asserting fully the old German right of electing the new sovereign... [9]. But you could also ask about this at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Novickas (talk) 15:17, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
      • I will do so. The "principle of free election" can just mean "the principle of free and fair election" and nothing more than that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:51, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Royal election in Poland would be a much better choice. The phrase "free election" in wolna elekcja sense sounds in English so bad, that it's reasonable to use it in quotation marks only.Orczar (talk) 23:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

---

• Comment. Royal election in Poland would get my weak support. It is correct and descriptive, but less used in literature, in this context, then the translated free election. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:29, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
• Support new option "Royal election in Poland" sounds good to me. 65.93.12.101 (talk) 23:25, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
• Comment: from a formal perspecitve, I think we should better wait until this discussion is closed and then start a new move discussion for Royal election in Poland. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:01, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
• Comment: All of the opponents of this move have a point, but only if Free election did not currently redirect to Free election (Polish throne). The nominator is just trying to remove an unnecessary disambiguator. It seems to me that Free election should redirect to Democracy or something similar. –CWenger (talk) 01:24, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

  Comment: I went ahead and changed or created redirects, so that Free election, Fair election, Free and fair election, and Fair and free election all redirect to Election now, which ideally should explain what these concepts mean in political science. I hope this won't cause any controversies. I also added a hatnote at Election, saying that "Free election" redirects here; for the "free elections" of Polish kings, see Free election (Polish throne). If the latter article is moved to Royal elections in Poland or Royal election in Poland, the hatnote will need to be updated accordingly. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:29, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

  I had to revert you on Free election. As was said above, somebody needs to fix the links in various articles, since over 90% of Free election links point to here. By redirecting it elsewhere, you are both removing the correct link from the articles AND making this one an orphan. The hatnote is a good solution for later, but let's fix the links first (hatnote also doesn't address the orphan issue) - somebody was mentioning scripts can do it easily... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

  OK. — Kpalion^(talk) 19:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Relisting to consider alternative proposal

Royal election in Poland is available as a title for this article. There is clearly no consensus likely to move to the originally proposed name Free election, but there is no need to close this RM and open a new one if consensus on the alternative proposal Royal election in Poland can be demonstrated. Andrewa (talk) 18:32, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support move to Royal elections in Poland (first choice) or Royal election in Poland (second best). I prefer the plural form per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (plurals), which lists "articles on groups or classes of specific things" as an exception to the "use singular" rule, and per analogy to many general articles about elections in a given country (as opposed to articles about one particular election). — Kpalion^(talk) 21:59, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support I checked several books on Polish history and noticed this practice referred to as, "free royal election", "royal election" (Daniel Stone, Natalia Nowakowska), and " 'free' royal election" (Jerzy Jan Lerski, Jerzy Lukowski). Kauffner (talk) 06:07, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support, and the article should explain the nomenclature. Srnec (talk) 23:02, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support per Walkinxyz way above. I'd be happy to work on some of the free election links after the move. --Bejnar (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bit unclear

• Before "free elections" were abolished, 13 were held in Poland, resulting in the elevation of these kings: ... (followed by 14 names!)
• The largest number of participating nobles (40,000–50,000) attended the first free election, in 1573 ... and ... Often close to 100,000 nobles came to those sejms.

Brgds --Wistula (talk) 10:55, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

B-Class

This is definitely B-Class well written article. Kmicic (talk) 19:35, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

"Democracy"?

"While seemingly introducing an very democratic procedure..." No, not even "seemingly": in the West, an electorate composed solely of nobles can't be construed as "democratic", even where the nobles all stood on an equal footing, which is the essential concept of peers in a peerage. Can this be rethought and rewritten?--Wetman (talk) 18:05, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I see no need to change the wording. Replied here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 20:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)