Talk:Royal christening gown

WP:DYK

Nice article, Mesmeilleurs. I was waiting for someone to be inspired by those red links I left lying around! :D How do you feel about nominating this for WP:DYK? Surtsicna (talk) 16:39, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Surtsicna! Of course, that would be great! Do I have to nominate the article, or is that open to anyone? Sorry, I'm not familiar with the nominations process. :) Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 17:26, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Anyone can nominate it but I encourage you to do it yourself. It gets sort of addictive :D Besides, as a newbie, you will not have to review another article. Surtsicna (talk) 21:33, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Ah, okay! I'll get to it! :) Thanks, Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 22:44, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Here's the nom I just submitted if you're interested: Template:Did you know nominations/Royal christening gown. Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 23:09, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

It looks great. I love the hooks you proposed. I should just point out that the title of the article you are nominating should be in bold and that the article must be thoroughly referenced. This article lacks a citation for the wedding dress origin sentence. I'll try to address that myself. Surtsicna (talk) 14:29, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Article title

I get that the Brits are the most well known royal family, but just off the top of my head, the Danish and Swedish royal families both have heirloom royal christening gowns that are in use. Would it make more sense for this article to be titled more specifically to denote that it refers to the British royal family? Just a thought. Piratesswoop (talk) 01:52, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I was originally going to create the article under the title "British royal christening gown", but just decided to omit the "British" at the last minute. I suppose it doesn't matter until articles are created for any other royal christening gowns, for example the Danish or Swedish gowns. Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 06:24, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that other royal christening gowns are notable enough to deserve encyclopedia articles? If so, do their common names include the term "royal christening gown"? They might have unique names. For what it's worth, this gown is obviously the primary meaning of the term "royal christening gown". In any case, I support Mesmeilleurs's decision to drop preemptive disambiguation. Surtsicna (talk) 14:23, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on what you might consider notable--is the gown in and of itself notable because of its history of being worn by members of the British royal family including five monarchs, or is it notable because of the people wearing it? The Swedish gown is a little over a half century newer than the British one, but is also traditionally worn by members of the Swedish royal family, including the current king. It has been used seven times in the last decade and each time, the Swedish royal house includes mention of it on the baptism pages for the royal children who wear it. Here is the page for Princess Estelle's baptism. The Swedish gown is called a Dopklänning</ref>, which translates essentially or christening gown or baptismal gown. The Danish gown has been in use since 187 so only 3 decades after the British one. It's also been used to baptise 5 monarchs: Christian X, Frederik IX, Margarethe as well as King Haakon of Norway and Queen Anne Marie of Greece. The Danish gown is called a Dåbskjolen which also translates to christening gown. I'm not sure how to quantify their notoriety--they receive media attention each time a royal child is baptised, moreso in Danish or Swedish, but in English articles as well. Naturally the primary sources you'll get if you looking up "royal christening gown" will refer to the English-speaking British royal house, but while I honestly don't think the others are notable enough to have indiviudal articles, it might be worth noting their inclusion here, or having this article represent any notable royal christening gown. Just my two cents. Piratesswoop (talk) 19:53, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, Piratesswoop. I've added a new section about the other gowns. It's quite basic but I only had the one source for each from their respective official royal family websites. Hopefully it could be expanded a little more in the future. Thanks, Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 19:13, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

List of British gown wearers

In the article, one of the citations mentions the original gown was used by sixty-two royal children over the course of its 163-year service.

Is there anywhere a list of which children in the family wore it? I was trying to find one to see if it would be possible to include Maud of Wales, Marie of Romania and Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg as queens who were probably baptised in it. Maud, as the daughter of the Prince of Wales, most likely was, but not sure about the other two.

I calculated just based on members of the British royal family, but I would be curious to know who all of the 62 are.

Just looking at direct lines to see potential and confirmed wearers of the gown, there's all of Queen Victoria's children (9), either 5 or 6 of Edward VII's children (5/6), possibly all of the Duke of Edinburgh's children or just Alfred, Marie and Beatrice who were the ones born in England (so possibly 5, most likely 3) all of the Duke of Connaughts children (3) both of the Duke of Albany's children, all of George V's children (6) the Duke of Kent's children (3) the Duke of Gloucester's children (2), both of George VI's children (2) all of Elizabeth II's children (4), both of the Prince of Wales' children (2) both of the Duke of York's children (2) and Lady Louise Windsor. That gives me 45 or 47. Both Princess Helena and Beatrice's children were born and primarily raised in the UK, but I'm unsure if any of them wore the gown. If so, that would be 8 more wearers. Possibly Prince Alastair of Connaught (as he was known at the time), and the children of the last 3 Princess Royals? That would be 7 other potential wearers. Princess Margaret's children? The children of Princes Edward, Michael and Richard? I'm curious to know if anywhere actually maintains a list of the children baptised in this gown. Piratesswoop (talk) 03:16, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I've been looking for a list, but I've not yet found one. I think it's safe to say that at least all of the children of every monarch have worn the gown. I'll let you know if I find anything. Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 15:59, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

No update on the list but I can confirm that Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg did wear the gown. In Queen Victoria's journal entry for the 23 November 1887, she described her christening in detail, and included the following: "The sweet Baby looked beautiful in the old Christening Robe, in which all our children & so many grandchildren, including little Drino, (Alexander Mountbatten, 1st Marquess of Carisbrooke) have been christened." You can find it here: Queen Victoria's Journals: Journal Entry : Wednesday 23rd November 1887. Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 18:06, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Can also confirm Marie of Romania. In Queen Victoria's entry for 15 December 1875, Marie's christening, she said: "The Baby was dressed in the old Christening robe, which will hardly hold together!" Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 18:10, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Excellent finds! I would assume then, that if both Alexander and Victoria Eugenie wore the gown, then probably so did their two younger brothers, and that Marie's elder brother Alfred most likely did so as well. I also wouldn't be surprised if Princess Helena's children, being born in England, were also baptised in the gown. Piratesswoop (talk) 03:08, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I had another browse and in terms of Helena's children, Prince Christian Victor of Schleswig-Holstein was dressed in a new gown gifted by Victoria, made of Irish lace, and Lenchen's three other children do not have what they are wearing mentioned. Marie Louise's christening isn't recorded at all. I'd assume they must have just shared the new gown. Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 10:23, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I had another scour through Queen Victoria's journals and fortunately, Victoria herself confirms who has worn the dress of her children and grandchildren. "… worn by all our 9 children, Bertie's 5, Affie's 5, Arthur's 2 eldest, & dear Leopold's 2." This is from the entry of 1 May 1886, Princess Patricia of Connaught's christening. Queen Victoria's Journals: Journal Entry: Saturday 1st May 1886. Will check back in later if I get more info re: grandchildren born after Patricia. Thanks, Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 12:58, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi again! I found another extract from the day of Edward VIII's christening, in which she says the robe was worn by all of her children, and all of her English grandchildren. So all of the babies born & christened in the UK would have worn the gown. Also, another extract from 17 July 1900 confirms the robe was also worn by Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma (when he was still Prince Louis of Battenberg!) Thanks, Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 13:19, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Excellent find. I don't know why I didn't think of the four Battenberg-Hesse children as potential wearers, but it makes sense. Any indication that older sister Louise wore the gown? She'd be another queen we could add to the list. Piratesswoop (talk) 02:29, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks :) I had a look and unfortunately there's no mention of Louise's christening in her journals. The fact that she was born in Germany is probably why. I also looked separately on Google just for any mention of her christening but couldn't find anything! Sorry :( Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 16:52, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

List of Swedish gown wearers

The source we have says that 21 royals have worn the gown, but I've only managed to count 20. Any ideas on who the mystery missing child is? Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 11:51, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I think I've worked it out. I'm pretty sure it could only be Lennart Bernadotte. Seems like the most logical explanation. Mesmeilleurs^{Say Hey!} 22:46, 2 August 2019 (UTC)