Talk:Royal Navy officer rank insignia

Untitled

Officer Cadet does in fact have an insignia. I however do not have a picture of it or even really know how to edit wikipedia.

Admiral of the fleet epaulettes

For the admiral of the fleet's epaulettes, see RN dress regulations of 1856: "Three stars within the crescent and one star on the strap, above it crossed batons surmounted by a crown." Other regulations before 1891 read basically the same, though at some point they changed the wording to "small stars." J.T. Broderick (talk) 16:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, but where/how would I be able to see "RN dress regulations of 1856"? Pdfpdf (talk) 01:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

It took me many years to accumulate that kind of reference material, but now there is a resource that makes it much easier: "Google Books Search". The dress regulations are usually appended near the end of the "Navy List" publications. The illustrated 1879 RN uniform regulations are also available there. Good luck! J.T. Broderick (talk) 16:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Cdre1, images, A/Sub-Lt, article layout

CDRE1

The article says that a crown and sword & baton was worn by Cdre1. What sources state this specifically? And when did this practice cease?

At the time of its abolition - and I believe as far back as the 19th Century - Cdre1 had a crown and anchor with two stars on gold-backed shoulder-boards (but unlike Cdre2, ALL Cdre1 shoulder devices were the same, regardless of order of dress). I know the regulations of 1920 specify that ALL commodores, and captains over 3 years' on the captains' list, had the crown and anchor with two stars.

Yes this is true, when I first did this bit it was correct, but some idiot went and made it wrong. (Now fixed) (130.88.202.219 (talk) 13:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC))

IMAGES

The insignia images in this article are absurdly innaccurate. Naval swords are worn, not Mameluke swords (with the sharp side facing UP, not down), the dimensions are wrong, and midshipmen's turnbacks are actually rhomboid, not rectangular.

There are a number of sites that depict RN officer insignia with accurate dimensions (if not as detailed as these pictures), so perhaps someone could send an e-mail to one of these illustrators for permission to use his/her images in this article (or to request fresh ones). Anyone know of anyone competent who could be approached in this way?

A/SUB-LT

Mentioning acting sub-lieutenant is pointless in an insignia article. ANY acting appointment to ANY rank should carry the same insignia as the actual rank. That's the point! An acting lieutenant has the same insignia as an actual lieutenant, an acting lieutenant-commander has the same insignia as an actual lieutenant-commander, and so on. Any reason why A/Sub-Lt should remain?

LAYOUT

I think the layout of the content of the article should be altered. Suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.172.5 (talk) 20:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Shoulder boards for officers below flag rank

Is full dress (as worn by the Prince of Wales at his wedding in 1981) since 2001 no longer worn by officers below the rank of Rear-Admiral? If it is, what insignia are displayed on the shoulder boards? Opera hat (talk) 23:01, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Depending on the uniform type, one either has something on the cuffs, OR something on the shoulders, but NOT both. If it's on the cuffs, it's "rings" encircling the wrist. If it's on the shoulders, it's epaulettes either "loops" that slip over the epaulettes, or "shoulder straps" for tropical dress, and they display a section of the "rings" as seen in the table. If, however, one is a "flag" officer, in certain uniform types, one wears "ceremonial" shoulder straps/boards. whereas the non-flag officers wear epaulettes. (i.e. non-flag officers don't have shoulder boards, so they can't wear them, whereas flag officers do have them, and therefore on some uniform types, they do wear them.)

So, in answer to your questions:

"Is full dress ... since 2001 no longer worn by officers below the rank of Rear-Admiral?" - No, full dress is sometimes worn.

"If it is, what insignia are displayed on the shoulder boards?" - They don't have shoulder boards; they either wear "loops" on their epaulettes or shoulder boards with the "ring segments" on them, or "rings" on their cuffs, depending on uniform type.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 14:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Examples

Blue:

• #1 - Formal Dress (cuffs)
• #2 - Formal Evening Dress (cuffs)
• #3 - General Duty Rig (shoulders)
• #3 cont. - General Duty Rig (shoulders)

White:

• #1 - Formal Dress (shoulders)
• #2 - Formal Evening Dress (shoulders)
• #3 - General Duty Dress (shoulders)

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Officers below flag rank do wear shoulder boards on tropical jackets or shirts, they're marked with the appropriate stripes. The board is merely the vehicle for carrying the rank markings.

Royal Marine Officers wear the rank pinned into the epaulette.

ALR (talk) 16:20, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

For below flag rank, is there a difference between a shoulder board and an epaulette?

If so, what is the difference? (Presumably the board is rigid but the epaulette is flexible?)

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 01:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The epaulette is the strap that goes from the sleeve seam of the shirt to a button at the top of the shoulder seam. The rabk slides are then slid onto it. Seen here from Gieves and thieves.

Shoulder boards are laced onto the shoulder, seen here, again at G&H.

Senior officer ceremonial boards are here, although no images, and would be the ones referred to above.

RM Pins are here are pinned through the epaulette.

ALR (talk) 16:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks ALR. (G&H used to display the ceremonial boards; it's a shame they no longer do so.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you haven't really answered the second part of my question, which was what do officers below flag rank wear on their shoulders with full dress. For example: what insignia are being displayed on this captain's shoulders [1] and this commander's shoulders [2]? Or are they just plain? I can't make it out from the photographs. Opera hat (talk) 12:14, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

It depends on which uniform type you consider to be "full dress".

In blue "full dress" uniform, the shoulders are bare, and they have rings around the cuffs.

In white "full dress" uniform, they wear stripes/bars/ring segments on their shoulders.

However, Andy and Charlie are wearing uniforms that do not fit into any of those categories; they appear to be wearing a variation of the blue uniform that has something on the shoulders, and I can't make out what it is either. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I suspect they are wearing "ceremonial" dress/uniform; I haven't found any pictures yet. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I would have thought that what the Duke of York and the Prince of Wales are wearing in those photographs (with a high collar and tails to the coat and everything else) is "full dress", and the dress you describe is "No. 1 dress" (white or blue). Not being a naval type myself, however, I welcome any clarification anyone can offer on the subject. Opera hat (talk) 23:43, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I doubt the Garter (or any other) riband is worn with No. 1 dress, though I may be wrong. Opera hat (talk) 23:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's a site that gives the shoulder insignia for officers below flag rank as worn (only) on full dress tail-coats. However the site in general doesn't look entirely reliable as a citable source for the purposes of wikipedia. Opera hat (talk) 03:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

ISTR there was a change in the RN uniforms about 10 or so years ago, when they were rationalised and a number of unused uniforms removed from the scheme. I think that old style full dress was similar to those photos, but it was so rarely used that it was one of those removed.

ALR (talk) 23:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

But the picture of Captain HRH The Duke of York KG KCVO RN is from the Falklands 25th anniversary - in summer 2007. Opera hat (talk) 23:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Given that he's the bosses son who's going to pick him up on it. It may be that the policy allows for some to continue with the legacy uniforms. You might need to make a FOIA request to get hold of the Defence Council Instruction which had the amendments in it.

Alternatively have you enquired at the RN Museum?

ALR (talk) 11:36, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I've just had another look at the photos, the PoW is wearing boards, Hon Capt Windsor doesn't appear to be. If you look at the image the shoulder strap appears to be flexible and curving with his shoulder, where the PoWs are flat.

ALR (talk) 11:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I must admit that I hadn't noticed that Andy's curved, but even so, I'm not sure what your point is - current regs for blue uniforms don't have anything on the shoulder ... Signed: Confused from Adelaide. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

It's potentially a different uniform adornment; a tiddly shoulder strap, rather than a shoulder board. It's not out of the question that the full dress had some modifications about the time the system was revised.

ALR (talk) 13:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The then Commander Duke of York with shoulder boards (not straps) on his coat at Queen Elizabeth's funeral in 2002: [3]. Opera hat (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Fine. I'll repeat the previous suggestion, either FOIA the dress amends or get in touch with the museum.

ALR (talk) 20:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Presumably FOIA is "Freedom of Information Act"?

While I'm at it, what does "ISTR" mean?

Opera hat: The geocities site has lots of nice pretty pictures, but the author has a barrow to push, and it's almost impossible to distinguish on that site what really was, what really is, and what is the author's personal desire. I'm not certain, but in the area that we are interested, my impression is that the site is displaying something that "was" ...

Would you two mind if we do a bit of a "stocktake" here? And please, correct me where I've got it wrong.

• The RN site "talks" about blue uniforms and white uniforms (and other unifoms not relevant to our discussion)
• However, there also seems to be "ceremonial" dress, which Opera hat calls "full dress", but we're all a bit uncertain about this (i.e. as to whether this is current "official" uniform, or not.) The RN site doesn't mention it. None of us can find anything definitive. ALR has suggested we "either FOIA the dress amends or get in touch with the museum". ALR also suggests that what the Royals wear may be independent of RN dress regs. On that point, I'll highlight that on one of the WP RN-very-senior-rank pages, it describes how what the King wore was somewhat different to the uniform of ordinary mortals.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I's agree the geocities site is inadmissible. But so would any information gathered through FOI requests, as ALR suggests, be, as these would be original research. Does the Navy List still give details on uniform? Old ones did. Opera hat (talk) 18:07, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

By the way: ISTR is internet-speak for "I seem to remember". Opera hat (talk) 18:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

An FoI request would get you access to the primary material that describes the uniform, your best bet might be to request access to a document called BR81, which apparently contains all of the dress regulations.

ALR (talk) 15:55, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Whoa, there's quite a bit of confusion here.

The full dress (tailcoat) uniform IS worn by officers below RAdm (though in rare cases). This includes shoulder-boards with gold backing and silver devices AS WELL AS sleeve stripes. As a Capt, HRH the Duke of York has a crown, anchor and one star on the tailcoat board (there are photos of this on the MOD website). Whether the boards worn on this garment are rigid or flexible is of no real consequence.

Oddly, HRH the Prince of Wales' tailcoat boards at his first wedding displayed the rank insignia of a Major on the (gold-covered) boards though the uniform was otherwise that of a RN Cdr (3 sleeve stripes). From this we could deduce that the 'proper' scheme of using the silver crowns, anchors and stars was in hiatus at that time and has since been restored, though I don't have any official info on that.

Re that geocities site (which has now moved to http://swordandpen.tripod.com): I agree that it's not reliable - clearly it's a polemic - but the guy (I think we can assume it's a guy) obviously knows what he's talking about to some extent. Anyone tried contacting him?

William 59.101.170.102 (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Forgot to mention: the details of the ceremonial tailcoat boards for non-flag officers and cdres are not in BR81. Because of the unusual nature of the order of dress, they're described in another document, which I don't have.

Wm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.170.79 (talk) 23:09, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's interesting. (I look forward to the next installment.) Thanks, Pdfpdf (talk) 01:27, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

So, what is CINCFLEET wearing here: [4] - loops on his shoulders as discussed above but not in the main article. Plus the wide loop looks segmented. Also, he has three stripes but is a 4-star commander? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richdrich (talk • contribs) 04:38, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm looking at the pic on that page (http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/10/1299793287230/trevor-soar-007.jpg). It shows his shoulder-slides with THREE medium stripes, with a curl in the top one (of course), and ONE wide stripe - the same rank insignia for a full admiral in nearly all Commonwealth navies and more besides. The Royal Cypher is superimposed on the wide stripe because he holds a personal appointment to HM The Queen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.169.78 (talk) 01:25, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Ugh. What a mess.

Anyway; here's the lowdown on what's being discussed here: the ceremonial day coat, discussed here; is essentially the same as full dress (pictured here sported by Kaiser Bill in his capacity of an Honorary Admiral of the Fleet RN):

, which featured a navy-blue double-breasted coatee, epaulettes, gold-striped trousers, sword-belt, sword, and a cocked hat. Different insignia were worn on the epaulettes to denote rank, as were the stripes on the sleeve. Pre-World War One, it was worn by all commissioned officers, as well as warrant officers (who did not wear epaulettes) on ceremonial occasions. It was put into abeyance (i.e. not worn but not abolished either) in 1916, and between the wars was authorised for wear at court levees and other high state occasions. At the outbreak of World War Two in 1939 its wear was again put into abeyance, and according to some sources it was abolished in 1956, along with the cocked hat (although some other sources say it continued to be in abeyance until the introduction of the ceremonial day coat). In 1959, the ceremonial day coat-pictured here:

]]

-was introduced, which was more-or-less exactly the same only it was worn with a peaked cap instead of a cocked hat, had gold shoulder straps rather than epaulettes (although the insignia borne on the shoulder straps was exactly the same as on the epaulettes), and did not have cuff-slashes on the sleeves. Its use was initially limited to Admirals of the Fleet, Admirals, Vice-Admirals, and Rear Admirals. In 1975 its use was further restricted to those above the rank of Rear Admiral. This is confirmed in all subsequent issues of the Royal Navy dress regulations (1984, 1999, 2015, 2016); the last of which states:(and I quote): "Ceremonial Day Coats are worn by members of the Royal Family attaining flag rank, First Sea Lord, Admirals of the Fleet, full Admirals and the defence services secretary when a Naval Officer."

HOWEVER, after his promotion to Commander RN on 1st January 1977, the Prince of Wales suddenly began wearing the ceremonial day coat, with the three cuff rings of a Commander on his sleeve and featuring the pre-1939 epaulette insignia (a crown and a foul anchor) on his gold shoulder straps, first wearing it (I believe) at the funeral of Lord Mountbatten in 1979, and worn at his wedding to Diana in 1981. He continued to wear this rig on his promotion to Captain on 14th November 1988, his cuff rings and gold shoulder straps (this time featuring a crown, a star and a foul anchor, just like the pre-war epaulettes), before being promoted to rear-admiral in 1999 (when he would have been within regs to be wearing this rig.) The Duke of York also started wearing the ceremonial day coat with the rank insignia of a Commander RN after being promoted thusly in 1999,(as can be seen at the funeral of the Queen Mother), and subsequent to his appointment as an Honorary Captain RN in 2005.

So my question is this: why is this? There's certainly no provision in the dress regs for them to do so; yet it seems once a member of the Royal family hits the rank of Commander (whether substantive or honorary), they seem to be authorized to wear the ceremonial day coat, yet I can find nothing 'official' entitling them to so.

Can anyone shed any light on this subject? Its been baffling me for ages.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 09:59, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

OF(D)

As I have said in other articles, there is no such thing as OF(D). Midshipman in a commissioned OF1 rank and has been since ~2006. Look up any modern rank table in a JSP and you will see it listed alongside 2nd Lt and Pilot Officer. --Noofworm (talk) 12:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

STANAG 2116 seems an appropriate reference, if required. - David Biddulph (talk) 13:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems that STANAG lists officer candidates as part of OF-1, however they are different as officer candidates are not yet full officers. See Turkish Astegmen and Spanish Alferez (army) for other ranks with the same situation. We should keep the distinction to show the difference.--Officer781 (talk) 06:23, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Chaplains

Could we get the shoulder boards for Chaplains included here? They do hold the Queen's Commission and are saluted even if not technically holding a rank.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 10:06, 30 June 2017 (UTC)