Talk:Royal Hibernian Hotel

A fact from Royal Hibernian Hotel appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 August 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Royal Hibernian Hotel is thought to be the oldest hotel in Ireland?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Royal Hibernian Hotel.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by The C of E (talk) 07:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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... that the Royal Hibernian Hotel is thought to be the oldest ~~known~~ hotel in Ireland? Source: "The origin of the Royal Hibernian Hotel, Dawson Street, goes back to 1751, which makes it the oldest known hotel in Ireland."
([1])

Reviewed: Jane Suiter

Created by Ritchie333 (talk) and Smirkybec (talk). Self-nominated at 15:56, 4 June 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Suggesting "oldest hotel", because "thought to be" already conveys that it's a good guess, but a "oldest known hotel" suggests that there are some "unknown hotels" knocking about. Bogger (talk) 19:35, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bogger: The problem with that, is that from my experience, somebody will probably complain at WP:ERRORS that "oldest hotel" is not sufficiently verified when this hits the main page. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 20:00, 4 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Will review...@Ritchie333: & @Smirkybec:...in meantime check Woodenbridge Hotel. Firsts and oldest are sometimes difficult. Whispyhistory (talk) 12:51, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source says the Woodenbridge Hotel was founded in 1608 as a coaching inn, which is not quite the same thing, although particularly archaically the term "hotel" has been used for what we might today call a "pub". Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 13:05, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good discussion @Ritchie333:. What is the difference between "inn" and "hotel"? "The Royal Hibernian Hotel had been there for two centuries, beginning life as a coaching inn." [2]... Another first...Old Glenbigh Hotel [3]? Otherwise so far...new enough, no copyvio issues, long enough, QPQ provided. Whispyhistory (talk) 19:12, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well I'm not a reliable source, but as I understand it, an "inn" is somewhere you stayed overnight as part of an overall journey, while a "hotel" is somewhere you stayed as a temporary accommodation at the end of it. Since you can nowadays drive from Malin to Mizen in a day, this distinction has fallen out of use. As for what to do with the hook and the article, ALT1 : ... that the Royal Hibernian Hotel is thought to be one of the oldest hotels in Ireland? Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:41, 10 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for delayed reply. Did they all start as inns? Are these correct: The Royal Hibernian Hotel started in 1751 as a coaching inn [4]. Woodenbridge Hotel was founded in 1608 as an inn. The Glenbeigh Hotel dates back to 1792 when it opened its doors as a Stage Coach Inn [5]? I consider you very reliable btw...but who says it was the first? The source says when they closed, the Royal Hibernian Hotel claimed to be the first hotel in Ireland. If anyone else would like to help, please do. Whispyhistory (talk) 15:39, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's a transcript of a paper on public dining in Ireland (which the main source used in the article is an extract from) that says "The origin of the Royal Hibernian Hotel, Dawson Street, goes back to 1751, which makes it the oldest known hotel in Ireland (Corr, 1987, p. 5)." I've got no idea what source is "Corr, 1987" but it does mean the claim to be oldest known hotel is a little more verifiable (as opposed to actually true). I think I'm going to need Smirkybec's collection of Irish book sources at this point to progress further. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:52, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Found the paper you mentioned "The origin of the Royal Hibernian Hotel, Dawson Street, goes back to 1751, which makes it the oldest known hotel in Ireland" [6]. You could add to the article as a source. What is "known hotel"? Does that mean the Woodenbridge Hotel was the first unknown hotel? Let me know what you find. This reminds me of the articles I did on first transplants...or first successful transplant... or first transplant in a human etc. Sorry for nit-picking. Whispyhistory (talk) 17:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ritchie333, Whispyhistory, it's been a month since the last comments here. Where does this nomination/review stand? BlueMoonset (talk) 06:05, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @BlueMoonset:....Can someone help show this is the oldest hotel in Ireland? Whispyhistory (talk) 06:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are no further references that I could find that would make this more clear cut. Perhaps stating the oldest hotel in Dublin is the closest we can get? Smirkybec (talk) 12:17, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I might be able to get my hands on the Corr text, but will that be deemed a definitive enough source? It's Hotels in Ireland by Frank Corr 1987. Smirkybec (talk) 12:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you @Smirkybec: for investigating. Sorry @Ritchie333:, I had another look...oldest in Dublin is okay or if want to look further I found that the Irish poet Patrick Kavanagh has a story at that hotel [7]. It was also oncee described as Dublin's most fashionable hotel [8]. Whispyhistory (talk) 10:53, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think going for "oldest in Dublin" will do - it's still hooky enough, and also it'll finally get this issue resolved. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 19:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ritchie333, Smirkybec, could one of you please formally write out a new ALT2 hook with Dublin in it so it can be reviewed? Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:01, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No longer exists, so "is the oldest" would be wrong anyway: "was the first/earliest" Kevin McE (talk) 14:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

- Stop it guys! I can see someone is going to go to Ireland and have the foundations of every pub/inn/hotel/drinking bar/puteen house/whisky still etc carbon-dated. The "original hook" says "thought to be" ... I can see several bits of evidence that says that several people thought it to be. Wikipedia is not about "the truth", we may never find the remains of the medieval hut that St Patrick stayed at, but its not important here. Lets step away .... and let @BlueMoonset: take this off the waiting list. There are other hooks below that you can argue about. Let it go. Victuallers (talk) 14:28, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]