Talk:Roy Den Hollander

Is this page necessary

As far as I can tell, this page was created solely because the subject was the perpetrator of a murder. To the best of my knowledge, he is known for this shooting and for being involved in a case before Judge Salas (https://www.nj.com/news/2020/07/who-is-roy-den-hollander-suspect-in-deadly-attack-at-judges-nj-home-attracted-notoriety-through-legal-work.html) but I can't find anything else that he's notable for. I propose that this article be deleted, and a redirect created to go to Esther Salas. Praefect94 (talk) 10:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I suspect that he isn't notable in his own right, and also fear that having a full Wikipedia page for the guy is going to help get him glorified like that "supreme gentleman" person. I would prefer a redirect. Blythwood (talk) 13:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

The subject had a pretty notable life, even before the attack there was probably more than enough material to construct an article. That said, biographical material may ultimately be best located within an article on the attack itself, e.g. Murder of Daniel Anderl. Feoffer (talk) 14:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. He was rather forgettable prior to the murder. This page would not even exist if he just committed suicide rather then committing Murder–suicide which brought him to national attention. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 17:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

They appear to have been of borderline notability before the killings. That being said I think “activist” or “”lawyer” is probably more encyclopedic than “shooter” which I haven't seen before. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:13, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this page is unnecessary under WP:BLP1E. He was not notable before the shooting. Bueller 007 (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

On balance I endorse renaming this article "Murder of Daniel Anderl" and rewording, since there's nothing wrong with its sourcing. I think there's a bit too much content to go in the Esther Salas article. Blythwood (talk) 17:20, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, unless information comes out further/the murder grows in media attention, or more information comes out, then I just don't think the murder is enough to stand on its own. Praefect94 (talk) 05:16, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

The policy for this is WP:ONEEVENT, "the general rule is to cover the event, not the person". My basic concern is that it's glorifying the guy giving him a Wikipedia page named after him. We do have Wikipedia articles on murderers but murderers who've only committed a single murder/spree killing (I referred to Elliot Rodger above) are often under articles titled after the event. 09:52, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

While we don't want to glorify this person, it's also UNDUE to cover the murder aat the Judge's bio -- she has a life of her own that should not be overshadowed by this event. Time to create Murder of Daniel Anderl Feoffer (talk) 09:57, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

But there's not enough information available currently to populate an entire page about the shooting. Either there isn't enough information, or it hasn't been reported on by sources that are WP:V. There's no point in creating an article that will wind up just being a stub anyway. Praefect94 (talk) 13:03, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

If it were a murder that did not touch on broad public concerns I would agree, but targeted political assassinations of prominent public officials, other noteworthy individuals, and/or their families are surely different. It would be strange if there were no page for John Hinckley, John Wilkes Booth, or Lee Harvey Oswald. Jared Lee Loughner, the man who attempted to assassinate US Senator Gabriel Giffords and who actually did kill a federal judge in the same attack, has his own page. Den Hollander is notable because the attack is notable. PatheticPeon (talk) 20:33, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

WP:BIO1E says "assassins of major political leaders, such as Gavrilo Princip, fit into this category." Some guy killing a judge he had a grudge against doesn't seem like it's "major", and I'd venture to say that it's not even "political." Mcrsftdog (talk) 20:51, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

The federal judiciary is one of three co-equal branches of the US government. Currently there are 677 federal district judges, compared to 535 current members of Congress, so it is certainly a highly select position. Federal district judges are sufficiently prominent to warrant their own pages: every judge in Salas' district had their own page (see United States District Court for the District of New Jersey). The attack also appears to have been politically motivated, regardless of whether one accepts the thesis that the judiciary is inherently political. And even if the assassination had not been remotely political, but had only been the assassination of a prominent public figure, it would still be noteworthy: see Valerie Solanas. PatheticPeon (talk) 21:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Article was a speedy keep at AfD because he's notable before his death. So the article is necessary. If someone already with a Wiki page (eg Chris Benoit) goes on a murder spree then their info wouldn't be redirected to an article on the murders. Just because no one wrote an article on Roy Den Hollander while he was alive doesn't mean Hollander should be denied one due to the events surrounding his death. Dougal18 (talk) 11:06, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I really wish it had been posted in here that there was an AfD posted, I would've gotten involved in the discussion. But what's done is done. Praefect94 (talk) 13:20, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Not an MRA

The article states that Den Hollander was a Men's Rights Activist. Den Hollander explicitely renounced any connection to or involvement with the men's rights movement. The following quote can be found in his manifesto here.

I don’t belong to that group of wimps and whiners. They’re trying to win back their rights by acting like girls instead of men.

Most men’s rights advocates act like little girls and behave largely as the Feminists tell them to. You can identify them by the politically correct lingo they use and their copying of Feminists tactics by simply changing the sex. For example, “A woman is more likely to physically attack a guy than vice versa.” True, but who cares, unless she’s behind the wheel of a Mercedes Benz. Even if she has a gun, most girls can’t shoot straight anyway, so unless it’s a shotgun, she’ll miss.

In one of my martial arts class, one Senshi always told us don’t hit the girls and I don’t. I let them hit me, which rarely hurts, unless it’s low.

What the men’s righters don’t understand is that girls have different weapons for causing evil, such as fraud and the intentional infliction of emotional distress.

Robert Brockway (talk) 02:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

He was identified as Men's Rights in sources dating to 2016 [1] and had been part of National Coalition for Men. Sounds like he had a falling out in the final years of his life? Feoffer (talk) 04:37, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

That's like saying someone isn't a racist just because he or she doesn't think that existing racist organizations go far enough. 2601:282:102:BE80:90FA:FCCD:171F:81FA (talk) 06:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

He was a men's rights activist, although he criticized the men's rights movement. New NYT article: In his online writings, Mr. Den Hollander criticized the men's rights movement, suggesting its advocates did not go far enough. "I don't belong to that group of wimps and whiners", he wrote. "They're trying to win back their rights by acting like girls instead of men." This could be added to the article but there's no hurry with new sources coming all the time. --Pudeo (talk) 12:35, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I believe I don’t belong to that group of wimps and whiners. is a clear rejection of inclusion within the men's rights movement, with an MRA being someone in that community (as I am). I also found no examples of him self-identifying as an MRA, although he did self-identify as a men's rights lawyer. Robert Brockway (talk) 02:14, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

We should treat any denouncement or criticism of the Men's Rights Movement from Hollander with a grain of salt per WP:SELFSOURCE. Reliable sources, including USA Today, CNN, The Guardian, and NBC News (among others) refer to him explicitly as a "men's rights activist". KidAd (💬💬) 02:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I think a decent mention of his denouncement of the movement should be fine. LΞVIXIUS💬 02:06, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Murder Category

There is a conversation about whether or not categorizing this and many other articles as murder is appropriate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings#Category:murder I welcome anyone's input.Yousef Raz (talk) 21:21, 20 April 2021 (UTC)