Talk:Ross, Scotland

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightst a llion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 06:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

This page used to live at Ross-shire until it was unilaterally renamed by User:Mais oui! who then deliberately edited the Ross-shire page so that it couldn't simply be moved back. Owain (talk) 12:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support - restore original name before unilateral move. Owain (talk) 12:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This area is called Ross. Very, very late in its existence it was Anglified to the ridiculous "Ross-shire" - the "-shire" is totally redundant. --Mais oui! 12:57, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Ross (area) has no validity; "Ross and Cromarty" looks best to me (i.e. one article for both traditional counties), but I can live with Ross-shire for now; the 1889 union claim may be technically correct, but in practice it's not as the two counties are treated as one in the First Statistical Account almost a century before. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)Changed my mind: Oppose because, having done some research, if it's "official" names you want, the correct one is "the County of Ross", in use, at an educated guess, 1708-1832 or even 1708-1889, which is considerably longer than 1889-1973. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

**Support proposal to Merge this article into the Ross and Cromarty article. (What is your source for Ross having "no validity" - I'll have to tell User:Calgacus that one!?! :) "Ross" is used all the time in the area. --Mais oui! 15:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC) Merge proposal has been withdrawn. --Mais oui! 22:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - because, I'd have said obviously, but clearly it isn't, it should be Ross (county) by your own naming standards as laid out at Moray (county). Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- Oppose Merge proposal. Ross and Cromarty was a completely different entity and should have its own article, just as Hereford and Worcester does. Stringops 15:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - fair enough, although I'd have though we had enough stubs already. Comments struck out. Angus McLellan (Talk)

Strongly Support The general area known as 'Ross' is very different to the highly specific area that used to be used for administration called 'Ross-shire'. I've no objection of a seperate article about the general area of 'Ross', but the article about the traditional or former administrative county should clearly be under Ross-shire. Stringops 14:18, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Shows how much you know: "Ross-shire" (sic) never was an "administrative county" (sic). Besides which: Scotland as a whole has never had "administrative counties" - they were confined to England and Wales. --Mais oui! 15:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - In this instance I used the term 'administrative county' in the sense of a county used for administrative purposesto differentiate it from traditional county. Please don't embarrass yourself in attempts to be pedantic. Ross-shire was used for administrative purposes. Stringops 15:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Ross-shire is the most common name in English. After the merger of the counties it was "Ross and Cromarty", but before then it was Ross-shire (compare e.g. Herefordshire, and Hereford and Worcester). The article should be at its most common English name. In the Gaelic Wikipedia it can be at a different title. In addition, it's preferable to disambiguate pages using a unique title instead of qualifying it with a term in parenthesis such as "Ross (area)". JRawle (Talk) 15:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Mais Oui! was correct to move this. It is no longer called Ross-shire, a linguistic absurdity comparable to Cornwallshire or Northumberlandshire; Ross is the historical name of this ancient comital province, Ross was the product of a past tendency/desire to anglicize Scottish placenames, and has even produced a culture concept known to academics as "Scotlandshire"; the area is now officially called "Ross and Cromarty" (strangely, as Cromarty is in Easter Ross). Ross-shire certainly is not the most common name, as was claimed above, but I'll admit usage does survive among people who've had grown accustomed to using it. Ross-shire should be a redirect to either Ross(! what is wrong with Ross (disambiguation)), Ross (area) or Ross and Cromarty. - 22:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Calgacus (talk • contribs) 22:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
- Comment - Ross is the historical name of this ancient comital province - I believe you, and there should therefore be an article in the Ross namespace about said province. However, Ross-shire is still the most common name for the county, which was not the same as the ancient comital provice, and this discussion is about the article on the county, not the ancient comital province. They are different entities, created for different purposes, and should be written about in different articles. Stringops 23:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - There is a problem here on a whole bunch of articles. Ross-shire may be the name for a county, but how many people using it know that. For instance, there is a similar request on the Argyll article; Argyll is one of the most famous regions of Britain, and is obscure as an early modern administrative unit. These registration counties need to be universally standardized to make it clear (in the title) that they are administrative units, rather than flexible regions. The Ross dab page makes it clear that Ross-shire is intended as another name for Ross, so Mais Oui! was entirely correct to move it. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:24, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment : Hansard, 1830-1832, available online, uses the name the County of Ross. No point in voting for Ross-shire now, is there ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - again I quote from the guidelines at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) : "When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?". I'll not bother posting google hits for the two (check them by all means), but I'm pretty sure that considerably more people would search for "Ross-shire" than for "The County of Ross", early-19th-century Hansard debates notwithstanding! Stringops 23:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - If it means anything, the Dingwall football club is called "Ross County". Likewise, if someone asks a Ross man where he's from, it's far more common to use the terms Easter and Wester Ross, than either Ross-shire or Ross. In both cases, the operative word is Ross, not Ross-shire. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This is a simply not how we refer to things. These are not English shires, they are historic Scottish counties. This is akin to renamingh Ulster Ulstershire,simply because Ulster's currently in the U.K. Canaen 23:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The county town of Aberdeenshire was Aberdeen, so "-shire" is an acceptable suffix. The county town of Ross was Dingwall, so "-shire' is not an acceptable suffix. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - An Siarach
Support - Return to the most common name in English. Ross (area) sounds terrible, and is rather ambiguous. MonMan 15:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- The "(area)" bit is only for disambiguation purposes: it could equally well be (region) for example, although in Scotland that unfortunately causes ambiguation problems with the old Regions. The title and subject of the article is "Ross". I hope that the term "Ross" does not "sound terrible" to your ears, because that is actually the name of the region! Perhaps terms like "the Black Country" "sound terrible" to non-English people; and "Puglia" "sounds odd" to non-Italians. --Mais oui! 15:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment - Parenthesised disambiguations are awkward, there is no getting away from it. Your choice of "area" is totally arbitrary and has no historical precedent. As you have also pointed out, "region" is unusable as a suffix. The two most obvious answers "county" and "shire" have been deliberately ignored because they don't conform to your PoV! Owain (talk) 17:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Ross is best. (Or Ross County or County of Ross). Ross-shire or Rossshire is wrong and looks and sounds silly. 86.143.176.105 17:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - We can't have "Ross" because that is a disambiguation page. Why is Ross-shire or Rossshire wrong? Have you actually looked it up in a search engine? It sounds silly? That's hardly an argument! Owain (talk) 18:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment - No, I haven't looked it up. And yes, it does sound silly. I live in Dingwall. The only place I have ever seen "Ross-shire" is in the title of the local newspaper. Strangely enough, any reports within the paper always call the area "Ross". Our local football team is Ross County, not Rossshire. As a resident of the county, I strongly oppose.
    - Comment - You haven't looked it up? Then how can you claim Ross-shire is wrong? Given that you live in Dingwall, almost every piece of mail you get will have "Ross-shire" on it! "County of Ross" and "Ross-shire" are the same thing. Either of those names would be fine for this page, but "Ross (area)" is arbitrary and ambiguous. Owain (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      - Comment - Actually, most of my mail either has no county or says Highland. Let's not get started on the Highland argument again... 86.142.200.25 19:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty clear opposition to this move, so I'm rm'ing the {{move}} tag, and leaving the page where it is. JesseW, the juggling janitor 02:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anglification

Why is 'shire' in 'Ross-shire' Anglification? Is it Anglification in 'Aberdeenshire'? It might be redundant in 'Ross-shire', but that does not make it Anglification. ('Ross' does seem to Anglify 'Ros', the Gaelic name.) Laurel Bush 11:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Because it would have three s's if not for the -...Rossshire reads stupid;y, so the - must be put there, whereas it is not needed in Aberdeenshire because there is no s.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus with four in favour, three against, and one in favour of something entirely different. —Nightst a llion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 09:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move II

Ross (area) → Ross, Scotland : Reference to the name of the country is simpler, clearer disambiguation. (Ross, Scotland is currently a redirect to Ross (area). : Laurel Bush 11:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support - As in request reason, above. Laurel Bush 11:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC).[reply]
Support. Ross, Scotland is better than the current name, although maybe "County of Ross" would be better as that's what the article was originally talking about. Owain (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. JRawle (Talk) 12:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support rename, but to County of Ross, otherwise Ross (county). David Kernow 15:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC), amended 12:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment : Is there a consensus that this Ross is more than merely an area? ~~If not Ross, Scotland, then Ross, County of Ross, Ross (county)...?~~ David Kernow 12:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC), amended 12:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, the americanism Place, Country makes me squirm much more than than shirification does. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; nothing against Americanisms (if this is one), but it would make much more sense to have Ross (area) moved to Ross, with current Ross page moved to Ross (disambiguation). - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 19:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; support alternative rename to Ross. --Mais oui! 11:46, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support; ptrsent name is unsatisfying--Aldux 14:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

If Ross will stick at Ross (disambiguation) then I have at present no objection to Ross (area) at Ross. If Ross will not stick at Ross (disambiguation) then I prefer Ross, Scotland for Ross (area). (Baffled by the idea that Ross, Scotland might be an Americanism - perhaps Perth, Scotland should be at Perth (place)?) Laurel Bush 11:38, 21 April 2006 (UTC).[reply]
Perhaps a decision on Ross, Scotland should be delayed until we have some assessment of whether Ross is really an option. Laurel Bush 09:55, 22 April 2006 (UTC).[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Ross, move Ross to Ross (disambiguation). —Nightst a llion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 15:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move III

Proposal :	Ross, Scotland → County of Ross or Ross
Rationale :	Following the survey just concluded, it seems a consensus to move this page to County of Ross or Ross is possible; please indicate your order of preference (otherwise overall opposition) below.
Proposer :	David Kernow 11:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Please add * Support or * Oppose followed by a brief explanation, then sign your vote using "~~~~".

~~Prefer County of Ross over Ross. David Kernow 11:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)~~[reply]
Strong Oppose' County of Ross; support Ross. It's not at county; and it's had lots of different statuses, county just one of them. My preference was a move to Ross, with Ross as it is moved to Ross (disambiguation). But if that's not an option, the page should stay at Ross (area). - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 11:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- David Kernow, please not delete my vote again, as you did here here - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 11:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - Please see here. The speed of reaction to my reproposing this move has just been too fast (for me, anyway). David Kernow 12:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support as per previous discussion. Owain (talk) 11:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC) (4th time lucky)[reply]
Oppose County of Ross and support Ross. It has been lots of other things other than a "county". In fact it was never even a proper "county": the county was Ross and Cromarty: Ross was a sheriffdom which had the word "county" applied to it by the Victorians: it has never been a "county" for any official or administrative purposes. It is a classic historiographical error to concentrate on one narrow period in the whole existence of a topic. If it is moved it should be to Ross: I note that no-one has objected over at Talk:Ross to moving the dab page to Ross (disambiguation) . --Mais oui! 11:57, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose County of Ross and support Ross. Ross has history representing a sense of place or area which long predates any sense of a county of Ross. Laurel Bush 12:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC).[reply]
Oppose County of Ross and support Ross. "County of" is historically more authentic than -shire; but is only needed, IMO, when we have to dab County of X and X, where X is the county town. Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

I'm a little indignant that the proposer is altering votes. The proposal at this part of the page still says Proposal : || Ross, Scotland → County of Ross, even though at the top it says a three way vote. And why a three-way vote, the chances of consensus are slim, and the page would stay at Ross (area). - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 11:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise for any offense caused, for not anticipating an instant reaction to my relisting the move and for appearing to alter your vote. I hope, following our conversation that you understand this was in no way my intention. I regret thinking a third attempt to resolve this issue might work. David Kernow 12:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I too am displeased with the manner in which the proposer has behaved: they made a right mess of this Talk page, and started altering the closed discussions. For example: what on earth is going on here: [1]? [grumpy comments withdrawn: on the condition that you stop tampering with other people's comments: [2] Grrrrrr!] --Mais oui! 12:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise for the displeasure caused and am horrified if you believe I have altered anything in the closed discussions. My intention was to present the chronology: current survey; previous survey; original survey. My reordering these did not involve altering their content. I simply haven't had the opportunity to check whether I ordered them correctly. I just wish everyone would slow down a little. I have no special interest in Ross and regret trying to contribute. David Kernow 12:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to know whether anyone who actually lives in Ross-shire thinks that the name Ross-shire is inappropriate? The Ross-shire Journal is sold by the thousands every week here and many people still include "Ross-shire" when quoting their postal address. In my opinion, as someone who has spent nearly 20 years of my life living in Ross-shire, that the name should be changed back to Ross-shire. This is as nonsensical as the people who insist on renaming Easter Ross as East Ross and Wester Ross as West Ross. --PeterR 13:46, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ross-shire does seem generally appropriate for the area post 1707. In Caithness papers it seems always to be Ross-shire man, never Ross man. Laurel Bush 17:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Well, I'm from Ross and, yes, people do use that word, but it's more usual to write "Ross & Cromarty" than Ross-shire these days; Ross-shire is a defunct entity, a product of a by-gone era (the era in which that paper was founded), but use of "Ross-shire" dies only slowly among certain people. That, however, doesn't mean we speak about the "Earl of Ross-shire" or "Easter Ross-shire". The current page is the core historical regional unit, and so should bare the name Ross, the name by which it has been known since Pictish times: Ross-shire, Ross & Cromarty, and all the other modern administrative divisions of the region can have their own articles potentially, as can future administrative divisions; but just as Ireland shouldn't be be interpreted as meaning the "Republic of Ireland", Ross-shire and Ross and Cromatty shouldn't be made out to be Ross. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 21:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The local paper where I was born is the Linlithgowshire Journal. It was first published in 1891. At that time the official (per the 1889 Act) name of the county was West Lothian. Newspaper names do not, on this basis, constitute certain evidence. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Double redirects

This page seems to get moved about regularly. Whoever next moves it, please will you click the "What links here" link and check that you haven't made double redirects? I've just fixed six of them. JRawle (Talk) 17:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Parishes

Does anyone have a list of Parishes in Ross-shire ? Thanks.

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ROC/ Has one for Ross & Cromarty. BTW, it's good to sign your comments with the button above or --~~~~ --Cavrdg 20:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Two articles

Does this really have to be a seperate article to the Ross-shire article ? mjgm84 15:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Ross is seperate from the the counties/lieutenancy area/committee area of Ross-shire and the Ross and Cromarty districts. Benson85 20:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Name?

This page really needs to link to disambiguation! Rarelibra 15:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's a link right at the top. --Cavrdg 16:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merger

I propose that Ross-shire be merged into this article, as it is a clear breach of WP:Content forking. Ross and Ross-shire are the same thing. The differences in boundaries at different periods ought to be clearly explained on one page. --Mais oui! (talk) 13:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Ross and Ross-shire are the same thing. Zacwill16 (talk) 15:20, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move this article to Ross, Scotland and the disambiguation page to Ross, per the discussion below. There may still be more discussion required related to the distinction between Ross-shire and this article. Dekimasuよ! 17:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ross → Ross, Scotland – WP:ASTONISH. I'd like to think the name is the primary target here. Whether it's the first name or surname is a matter for another day, but I'm sure we can establish it's not the region of Scotland. Unreal7 (talk) 18:21, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support and also support moving Ross (disambiguation) to Ross._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 20:25, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support move per nom. Also support a move of the disambiguation per Zxcvbnm. ONR (talk) 22:28, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support and also support moving Ross (disambiguation) to Ross -- Netoholic @ 02:01, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support move per nom and support moving Ross (disambiguation) → Ross per Zxcvbnm. Paintspot Infez (talk) 11:41, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support and support moving Ross (disambiguation) to Ross - not the primary topic. -Zanhe (talk) 19:33, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.