Talk:Rose O'Neill (Irish noblewoman)

Rose O'Neill (Irish noblewoman) has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: October 3, 2024. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Rose O'Neill (Irish noblewoman) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 6 November 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Rose O'Neill's marriage to Hugh Roe O'Donnell united two powerful noble families that had been rivals for centuries?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/November. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Rose O'Neill (Irish noblewoman).

Wikipedia

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rose O'Neill (Irish noblewoman)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: SkywalkerEccleston (talk · contribs) 14:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: DoctorWhoFan91 (talk · contribs) 06:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take this one; I will add my initial remarks in the next 24 hours (edit- 48-72 hours). DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 06:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am somewhat busy at the moment, so I'll start with the easier changes required(though the article might not require any more changes, even after I give it another read)

Images

Add another image, preferably related to the "Roison Dubh" song (the rose in that article will work)- the article does not do the best job to explain her significance.

In poetry

Expand- Why is she seen as a type of "Ireland"?- give some overview, one shouldn't have to read about the History of Ireland to understand it well.

Hugh Roe O'Donnell

Wikilink his name here too, in the first sentence
First sentence- Mention that they were a strong clan, with a ref
Second sentence- Mention that Rose would be around that age too, given the estimation of her birth year
"This controversie was ... his daughter...": Paraphrase
In December, seneschal ... the Earl's daughter".: the Earl's seneschal O'Hagan and brehon William McCrodan; paraphrase the quote
Third Para- expand, and relate to why she is seen as a type of Ireland
Merge last two paras

Donnell Ballagh O'Cahan

Merge first two paras
his first wife.[4] Montgomery wrote to: change to his first wife,[4] writing to
Mention that she is not mentioned after 1607, seems abrupt otherwise

Parentage

Last para- Brehon law(Early Irish law) might see her as illegitimate, but native society won't?(according to the quote): seems contradictory, explain; paraphrase the quote too

More remarks

The Description of Ireland (1598) makes reference to this alliance: "This controversie was taken away by a double marriage, Tyrone having married O Donnell's sister, by whom he hath diverse sons, and O Donnell having married his daughter..."[13]: with The Description of Ireland (1598) making reference to this alliance.[13] (Remove the quote)
In December, seneschal O'Hagan and William McCrodan, a brehon of the Earl, "went to O'Donnell's house to bring thither the Earl's daughter".[13]: In December, the Earl's seneschal O'Hagan and brehon William McCrodan, escorted the Earl's daughter to O'Donnell's house.
According to McGettigan, "initially the marriage was a success and Rose came to have a measure of influence over Red Hugh".[31]: According to McGettigan, the marriage started out as a success with Rose having some measure of influence over O'Donell.[31]
Rose's status ... to her legitimacy. Casway adds that Hugh Roe may have been attracted to her.[20]: However, Rose's status ... to her legitimacy.[20]
"Her name was Rose and she happened to be dark-haired; hence she was called Róisín Dubh."[41]: Because of her dark hair and her name, she was also called Róisín Dubh in poetry.[41]
Her name in English translates to "Dark Rose": Her name, as commonly used in poetry, translates to "Dark Rose" (caption)

Overall

@SkywalkerEccleston: Well-written article, especially given that you wrote it almost all by yourself; that's all my remarks for now at least. Ping me when you are done. (editing or with any inquires you might have of me, as the above comments are closer to suggestions than commands) DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 16:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks DoctorWhoFan91, I'll begin making these changes - I will let you know when I'm done. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 21:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

DoctorWhoFan91 I've updated the article, it's now ready for you to review. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 23:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SkywalkerEccleston: I have checked the sources, and they have no issues. There are some sentences which could be better-written, and some quotes that should be paraphrased; I have mentioned them in "More remarks". Make those changes and I'll pass the article. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 09:26, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've updated the article per your requests. The only liberty I have taken is that I changed your suggestion "Because of her dark hair and her name, she was also called Róisín Dubh in poetry" to "She is typically called Róisín Dubh (Dark Rose) in poetry, on account of her dark hair". Let me know if this works. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 11:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It does, better than my own suggestion even. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 17:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations, @SkywalkerEccleston:, I have passed the article. It was well written, just needed slight clarifications. Also, advice for next time- direct quoting should be kept to a minimum, paraphrasing in your own words is prefered. Again, Congratulations. DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 17:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks DoctorWhoFan91 SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 00:43, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 talk 08:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that Rose O'Neill's marriage to nobleman Hugh Roe O'Donnell united two powerful noble families that had been rivals for centuries?

Source: Morgan, Hiram (1993). Tyrone's Rebellion: The outbreak of the Nine Years' War in Tudor Ireland. London: The Boydell Press. ISBN 0-86193-224-2. p.

Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by SkywalkerEccleston (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 12:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall:

Epicgenius (talk) 15:57, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article Name

This article should not be named Rose O'Neill. She was never known as Rose O'Neill in any language. It should be renamed to Róisín Dubh Ní Néill. 2A06:5900:A6E:9D00:7EB5:A9CD:6D4C:B29C (talk) 04:07, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:Use English, we should use the subject's English-language name on the English-language Wikipedia. "Rose" is the name used by historians Hiram Morgan, Terry Clavin and Matthew McGinty (though Darren McGettigan uses "Róise"). Rose is well known for the song/poem Róisín Dubh, but that name is more commonly used to refer to the song rather than to her as a person. On Vicipéid (Irish-language Wikipedia) her Irish name should be used, if you are open to creating that page. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 23:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, no, per WP:IMOS, we should use the subject's most commonly used name. Where a subject has both an English and an Irish version of their name, use the English version if it is more common among English speakers... Conversely, when the Irish version is more common among English speakers, use the Irish version as the title of the article. Personally, I knew who Róisín Dubh was, but had to click in to the article to discover that Rose O'Neill is the anglicised name of Róisín Dubh Ní Néill. Finding which is actually the most common will be non-trivial, though, due to the prevalence of false positives detecting reference to pubs and venues. (Detecting references to songs would be valid, I would suggest.) Regards, Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

She has almost always been called Rose by historians, so I think "Rose O'Neill" is the correct page title. The name Róisín Dubh is used more in reference to the stock character of the song, rather than the historical noblewoman. SkywalkerEccleston (talk) 05:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And the 'stock character of the song' is often a personification of Ireland herself, rather than Red Hugh's wife, so ultimately, yes, the article is probably at the right name. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:43, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]