Talk:Rose Leclercq

Rose Leclercq
Rose Leclercq
	Leclercq as Lady Wargrave in The New Woman, 1894
Born	February 2, 1843; Liverpool
Died	April 2, 1899 (aged 56); Chelsea, London
Occupation	Actress
Known for	created the role of Lady Bracknell in The Importance of Being Earnest.

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Infobox

The stuff below has been copied from a user talk page in line with a suggestion made there. Hopefully this makes sense to other editors. Victuallers (talk) 19:22, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting good edits?

Hi Tim, I think that setting back the edit of Rose Leclercq has the feel of you saying "this is mine and I like it this way". Am I wrong to take that view? I would have expected some explanation. I was hoping to do some work on this family, but I have just gone off the idea. Can you explain yourself? Victuallers (talk) 16:36, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know that info-box aficionados get protective about their additions, but boxes that pretty much just duplicate the lead are no help to our readers (who should always be our first concern). I am a great fan of boxes where they add value. For e.g. cricketers, bishops, politicians with lots of stats/offices they are really helpful, but not when they take up prime space repeating what's already easily read. There was an instructive exchange on this very point here recently. But if you think a box would for some reason be helpful here by all means raise on the article talk page and I'll gladly, or at any rate, uncomplainingly, go with the consensus. Tim riley talk 18:16, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your suggestion. I intend to raise this issue on the talk page as you suggest as I think this is a marginal issue, bit iboxes drive wikidata and some people appreciate the information being in a defined format. I suggest that is one of the appeals to our readers. Frequently they could read the information on the internet somewhere, but not in a repeated layout. As you know, talk pages do not get much attention so I will add the ibox to ensure that those who object are aware of this needless? duplication. I will be intrigued to see who arrives on the talk page. In this case I created the ibox so that I could create an article for her sister which I was preparing - that is why I created the red link and an ibox for the article I was going to make.. Your very quick reversion with no explanation in the edit box (that I understood) prevented me from doing as I intended. Can I suggest that the reversion could have been better studied before you pressed the revert button?? You left no time to find out why a red link had been introduced - did you see it? Or was that IYO another needless addition?? I think you assumed that some "info-box aficionados" were targeting your? article. That is not the case, I don't feel very strongly about having iboxes in articles. I can cope with them being there or them not being there. I do object to this argument interfering with my contributions to this project. A reversion after 10 minutes does not show much consideration for other editors. I think you should have studied what was being done and what was happening before acting. I will copy this conversation to the talk page so that your point of view can be seen too. Hope this in line with your suggestion. Victuallers (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - this box is idiotic and repeats everything that can otherwise be found within the first few lines of the lede. It is ugly, redundant and does nothing to improve the quality. The addition of the IB was bold and in good faith, but unfortunately the waters have been muddied by the tired old accusation of ownership. I'm a little sick and tired of this tactic of trying to smear someone's good name just because he or she disagrees. Cassianto ^Talk 19:29, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As per the MoS guideline WP:INFOBOXUSE ("The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article") and the essay at WP:DISINFOBOX, I am not in favour of IBs in many cases. While hugely useful in many cases (and absolutely vital in others), the use in such short article where it is simply a duplication of vague facts from the lead, isn't useful.
Wikidata is a different problem: it mistakes data for knowledge and facts for understanding, without ever understanding the difference. On the few occasions I have ever visited the alien pages of Wikidata, I've found the pages there to carry serious errors, but that's the problem of trying to get computers to rip "facts" from anything: they always get the wrong end of the stick! If you are keen on ensuring the information in Wikidata is correct, then edit it directly and ensure it is correct. There is also the problem that the use of Wikidata by Google, leading to their versions on an IB to the right of teir search results, is leading to a drop in our reader numbers. I'm not sure that providing them with the means of keeping off our site is a terribly smart way to go.
On a final point, I don't think there is much to complain about having work reverted after ten minutes: it is more than enough time to consider the inclusion of the IB ill-advised. - SchroCat (talk) 19:39, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I must confess and apologise that I hadn't spotted the new red-link, and it wasn't my intention, in deleting the otiose info-box, to delete that too. Excellent to have an article on the linked subject. Tim riley talk 21:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC) Later: now I look at Victualler's edit summary, which mentioned only the info-box, I feel less apologetic for missing the red-link. Tim riley talk 21:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Memory clicking in, I recall being one of the WP toilers in this field who helped Victuallers with Kate Vaughan and I feel rather miffed in the circumstances at what I read as an implied denial of WP:AGF in his remark, "I will be intrigued to see who arrives on the talk page". Tim riley talk 23:42, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose box. I agree with SchroCat, per WP:DISINFOBOX. I do not believe that the infobox would be helpful here. Infoboxes should only be included where they are helpful, for example in sports or political bios. I must say that I am somewhat alarmed that an admin would add an infobox to an article like this, without finding out first if there is a consensus for such a thing, especially after the arbitration(s) that have addressed the subject. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:03, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I share SchroCat's thoughts entirely and couldn't have explained it better myself. iboxes are are almost indispensable for some kinds of articles such as, for example, schools, taxonomy, pop groups, chemicals and drugs, but really look out of place on most biographies, even longer ones such as Edward Elgar. I never understood why iboxes have been the subject of very heated discussion (even going to Arbcom) and I kept out of such debates. I feel that an ibox on articles such as Rose Leclercq and Kate Vaughan would mar them. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:09, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support infobox, my version, of course ;) - I never understood why infoboxes cause so much heat while they are simply helpful information, as images are. The box shows at a glance (of course repeating the lead, or it would be wrong) when and where this person lived and died. The dates translate easily to other formats if the article is translated. It doesn't hurt, or does it? - My famous question, like Abraham: would you tolerate the box if it helped only 10 readers? - Cassianto, I miss you and your spicy language! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:19, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is one the continual problems with IBs: "Known for: created the role of Lady Bracknell in The Importance of Being Earnest." That's not what the lead says at all. It says "possibly best known for" The addition of possibly (implying a question of doubt, or of alternatives) and best (meaning she was known for other things too) has been boiled down to a blank statement of fact - misleading to the point of being very wrong! ~~(There is also the point - in wich the lead is also at fault - that she didn't create the role: Oscar Wilde did).~~ - SchroCat (talk) 08:27, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We could perfectly well go without parameter "known for" here. I never use it in my boxes, but didn't want to through out Victuallers' creation ;) - If we keep it, I see no contradiction, because it only says "known", there's no claim to "best known", nor does it exclude other things for which she is known. - Repeating: my preferred version would be without the parameter. - Has to be my last comment, or arbitrary enforcement will come after me ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:45, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So all we would have is the born and died dates and the fact she's an actress? There's little point in just repeating the first line in a box format, simply for the sake of adding an IB. Just my opinion and I'll let others chip in on either side now. - SchroCat (talk) 10:53, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The point about an actor or actress "creating" a role has come up before, for just the reasons you mention above, SchroCat. The use of the word to mean the actor, rather than the playwright, is widespread (dozens of examples of it in DNB acticles on and Times obits of performers) and in this sense "create" is defined by the OED as "verb trans. Of an actor: to be the first to represent (a part or role), and so to give it its character." With that exception I agree completely with your comment. – Tim riley talk 09:54, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah - you learn something new every day! Many thanks for that gem of info. - SchroCat (talk) 09:58, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Beam me up, I don't want to be here Well yes I am intrigued to see who turned up here..... as it did'n't include me until now. My purpose in creating the important red link and the info box was to improve that bit of the article so that I could copy it and create the similar article for her sister. I see that Tim is accusing me of lack of AGF? (no comment). If you remember you help at the Kate Vaughan article and you also ...... deleted the info box. The latter bit wasn't helpful but I realised that it was your prerogative and that you are free to see what you consider as the best article appearance and what isn't ... and besides which, if that is what gets you to edit then that's fine by me. As it is you reverted my edit here after 10 minutes because I still suspect you just want to make "a point" ... and you never considered that it was interfering with my contribution to the project. This was, wrongly, thought of of as less important. We now have a straw poll of all those who are from the infobox denomination and those who are infobox deniers. I don't care! I want to contribute without people imposing their views on me about the existence or non existence of the infobox god. Most of the people are above are saying "we don't need an infobox because it isn't important". Can we concentrate on the second clause of that statement please, "it isn't important". Do please start an RFC where all those who feel that this is important can argue this ad infinitum. I still want to continue editing. "This is not important". Stop making it important. It isn't. Improving Wikipedia is important. Those who feel that their contribution is to settle/rerun the infobox debate, well, all I can say is good luck. Can you do it elsewhere please. A small percentage of the mental energy above could have been used to improve this project. Victuallers (talk) 11:34, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda, I don't think it's correct to say that an info-box should contain only what's in the lead. In FAs I've had a hand in on politicians, for instance, we have had brief details in the boxes of offices held during careers, though the minor offices aren't mentioned in the lead. For sportsmen and women, too, many statistics are given in boxes but not in leads. (Point taken about your not responding here further on this point, but as always an exchange of views offline would be welcome.) Tim riley talk 16:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, please re-read what Gerda wrote. She says that an infobox will repeat the lead, of course, but never says that it must be confined to that. Where did you get the word 'only' from? Of course an infobox may contain other key points of information from other parts of an article: for example, I remember a biography of an actor that didn't mention their place of death until the penultimate section - a sensible and easy addition to the infobox then allowed readers to glean that information without having to search through a lengthy article. Perhaps you need to review your assertion as Gerda can't respond to it. --RexxS (talk) 04:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Happily, Gerda and I are in regular contact away from Wikipedia, and we have a current exchange on this very point. Tim riley talk 09:13, 29 January 2015 (UTC) Later: Arising from which I confirm, for the avoidance of doubt, as lawyers say, that I read Gerda's comments the wrong way, and there was no suggestion that info-boxes must be based exclusively on the lead. Tim riley talk 15:11, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]