Talk:Rosa Khutor Alpine Resort

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Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Clear consensus to retain the current title. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:59, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rosa Khutor Alpine Resort → Roza Khutor Alpine Resort – http://en.ria.ru/tags/tag_RozaKhutor/ Fqugdvin (talk) 13:17, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Sources are mixed on this. I'm taking it to the talk page for discussion on how to translate Russian. If it were translated to English, I believe it would be "Rose Farm". Site of Sochi alpine Olympic events. Wbm1058 (talk) 14:59, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Роза Хутор transcribes as Roza Khutor, not Rosa Khutor. Google translates it as "Rose Farm", but it does not look like a normal Russian way of forming a compound word. Хутор is masculine, so "Rose of Farms" would be Роэа Хуторов. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:12, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sure move. Cf. WP:RUS. Anthony, the place name comes from settler Eduard Roza (http://rbth.co.uk/articles/2013/01/15/roza_khutor_ski_resort_in_sochi_gives_a_dare_to_courchevel_and_zerma_21847.html) --Fqugdvin (talk) 15:28, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But the Official site of the Organizing Committee of the XXII Olympic Winter Games and XI Paralympic Winter Games of 2014 in Sochi spells it with an "s". Why is that? Wbm1058 (talk) 15:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Errare humanum est. A government website is in our favor: http://frost2014.meteoinfo.ru/weather-bulletin-at-the-x-treme-park-roza-khutor --Fqugdvin (talk) 15:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Errare humanum est, "to err is human", eh? I had to look that one up. So, you're suggesting that this is just a bureaucratic mistake, and not some alternative romanization that perhaps goes against Wikipedia conventions? Wbm1058 (talk) 16:03, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes. --Fqugdvin (talk) 16:18, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Most Americans will be watching how the venue is spelled on television. If WP:COMMONNAME (prevalence in reliable English-language sources) means anything here, consider this. Wbm1058 (talk) 16:23, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The journalists will most probably look it up in Wikipedia. --Fqugdvin (talk) 16:30, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Podium downhill of World Cup in Sochi, Rosa Khutor, February 2012
And I suppose the guys responsible for the podium at the World Cup made a mistake too? Please don't edit war over the spelling, and wait until consensus is determined here. If your request prevails, then changes will need to be made in several other places as well as this particular page. Wbm1058 (talk) 17:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is a link to a photo from the Russian-language website of the ski resort for when it's just that—a place for regular folks to ski. Note that the url for this site also uses "s", as does the English side of the inflatable in the picture: rosaski.com – Wbm1058 (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Don't behave more complicated than necessary. The Russian language has voiced and unvoiced S. This is a voiced S, therefore transcribed as Z in English, irrespective of whether Audi's advertising department speaks Russian or not. --Fqugdvin (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is interesting. The source given above, rbth.co.uk (Russia Beyond the Headlines), says "...an Estonian settlement was founded called Esto-Sadok." I see that Estonian language employs the Latin script as the basis for its alphabet. So, if Eduard was Estonian, wouldn't "Roza Khutor" [Rose Farm] have been "de-romanized" from Estonian when translated to Russian? Maybe there was an error going the other direction, and putting the "s" back just makes it a proper Estonian name. Wbm1058 (talk) 19:07, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- No. --Fqugdvin (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Another observation. I searched the website http://www.theguardian.com/us with results:
- Roza Khutor - 3 items, from 2006, 2008 and April 2013
- Rosa Khutor - 10 items, from 2011–13

from this, I might speculate that perhaps the place used to be romanized per convention to "z" but sometime more recently (circa 2011) an official decision was made to use an "a" instead. Would be nice to find a source that addressed the spelling issue. Wbm1058 (talk) 20:30, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I just added another external link to the article, to the site of the State Corporation that built the Olympic venues. From that site, "Construction of «Rosa Khutor» Alpine Center (18 thousand seats), including engineering protection in the territory of Roza Khutor plateau, homologated tracks, start area, finish area with rows of seats, artificial snow-making systems, sets of ski—lifts (including design-survey works), along Aibga mountain ridge, urochische Roza Khutor."
- From this I gather that while the plateau and mountain ridge are called Roza Khutor, the Alpine Center itself (i.e., the Olympic venue) is called Rosa Khutor. So the newspaper reports from 2006 and 2008 were discussing the plateau and mountain ridge where they were going to build the ski resort, not the official name of the resort in planning and construction. Wbm1058 (talk) 21:13, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I cut-pasted four words from the Russian-language Wikipedia article on this topic, ru:Роза Хутор. Could a Russian-speaking editor translate each for me? I think that they may all be different forms of "Rose". Might clarify the distinction. Wbm1058 (talk) 22:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Роза – looks like the flower to me
- Розы – it's a redirect, looks like Roses plural
- Розой – Rosa, Russian Wikipedia has no article on the title, hmmm
- Розу – No article on that title, either
I think those last two must have something to do with the reason for this confusion. Wbm1058 (talk) 23:04, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Stop guessing around if you don't speak the language. You could get blocked for disruptive editing. --Fqugdvin (talk) 09:03, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - No. There is nothing disruptive about these edits. Andrewa (talk) 07:38, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  - It would be nice if a category:User ru member could provide more insight, and not just point to WP:RUS. Sources do not seem relatively balanced between the alternatives, such that WP:RUS would come into play as a "tiebreaker". Rosa seems the dominant usage among major western media. If this is indeed a simple "error" made by some "low-level bureaucrat" then it's an error that has been propagated in a major way without corrections. I'm not totally opposed to the idea of Wikipedia correcting the error and setting the journalists and promoters straight, but we need better sourced evidence for this than just the opinions of a few editors. I'll try again, with a couple more questions.
    - Why does Google Chrome translate Роза Плато (cut-pasted from the Russian article) to Rosa Plateau and not Rose Plateau? This seems to poke a hole into my earlier theory.
    - What's up with the Russian Wikipedia article ru:Tulip Inn Rosa Khutor? Note that the title is romanized in the Russian-language Wikipedia! Why is it not ru::Tulip Inn Roza Khutor? – Wbm1058 (talk) 18:35, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      - Thanks for the change in !vote below, and apologies for my speculation (guessing), which perhaps is all wrong. Still searching for the real reason, perhaps. If I may speculate some more, at the risk of being wrong yet again. Look at Roza which is a disambiguation. In particular, note the Other section of that dab. Whereas the Rosa dab offers no possibilities for controversy that I can see, and is a step closer to full translation to Rose. Hint to journalists, can you get this question answered in a published reliable source? Wbm1058 (talk) 20:01, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Oppose, per above discussion. This article is about the ski resort and Olympic venue, not the mountain ridge that the venue was built on. Rosa Khutor, with an a, is the name per the official website and common name per major media sources such as NBC-TV as well. Wbm1058 (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. As Wbm1058 says, the current title seems to be the more common name for the resort in English. We don't seem to have an article on the mountain range, but there may even be a case for spelling it after the resort if and when we do, or it may be that it has a different spelling. I note however that the official name used at the website doesn't bear a great deal of weight in this. Major news sources do. Andrewa (talk) 07:43, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. When usage in sources is mixed and no one usage is massively prevalent, we tend to go with romanization set forth in WP:RUS.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); February 3, 2014; 14:54 (UTC)
Changing to oppose. I'm not sure what it is I did to screw up my searches this morning, but the usage, while mixed, definitely heavily favors the "Rosa" spelling. I can't explain what in the world the officials were thinking when selecting that spelling (there is no transliteration system, including those officially adopted by the government, which would transliterate "з" as "s"), but by now it has indeed proliferated to the point of common usage, and since this is the spelling to be used during the Olympics, the situation is unlikely to change in the near future.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); February 3, 2014; 18:50 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.