Talk:Romance Pannonian language

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Romance Pannonian language

Vandalism

The following sentence is a vandalism that goes against the declarations of the academic scholars cited in the Bibliography, and against the ISO decision of creating the classification ISO3=rpa:"All linguistic and ethnic details about the K. culture are completely disputed and uknown, this article does not allow for that, the pure existence of a "romanized" language is a hoax. They could have been Avars, they could have been anybody."

No, your sentence is vandalism, because you have only provided sources for one particular opinion and ignored everything else. Not even the "request for a code" by ISO has been proven in the article. The whole article is one big POV pushing, so do not remove the tag at least.

And what are your sources? There is any scholar against the "romance pannonian language"? Until now the only scholars (from Carlo Tagliavini to many Romanian academics) writing about the subject are all in agreement about the existence of this disappeared neolatin language! You are doing vandalism even against a serious organization like the ISO ! Why do you believe they have done the pending classification "rpa"? Quite simple: they are serious in their decisions and are not "moved by nationalistic feeling" like probably you are. How do you dare to write that all of them are mistaken, and only you are right (without any academic evidence)? Go to JSTOR to check the original opinions of the academics about the 6000 tombs of the Keszthely culture !!!!!

The Keszthely culture has several (3) different major phases, the phase around the 6th century you are referring (the so-called "island-like settlements") to is generally considered of Avar or completely unknown ethnic etc. origin. Since the ethnicity etc. in unknown, any speculation about language (!!) is not only wrong, but literally ridiculous. This ia elementary knowledge of modern archaelogists. Secondly, you have not provided any quote for the proposed ISO code and even if there was such a proposal, anybody is entitled to invent a code for any hypothetical language etc., that means nothing. And do not remove the tag, until someone writes a normal article.

FOR THE LAST TIME: WHAT ARE YOUR SOURCES? IT IS RIDICULOUS TO DENY WHAT WRITE SERIOUS SCHOLARS IF YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCES! GO TO JSTOR TO CHECK ABOUT. AND GO TO THE ISO WEBSITE TO ASK INFORMATION ABOUT THE CLASSIFICATION RPA! BE SERIOUS....

You have to provide proofs and sources of other scholars. It is as simple as it is.

Another scholar's proofs & sources

I read that there is an ongoing tough discussion about "vandalism". I hope this additional scholar (after the italian Tagliavini and the Romanians Magdearu, Rosetti, Curca,etc.. ) can calm down the situation: Andre Du Nay.

According to the french historian André Du Nay (in his book The Origins of the Rumanians -- The early history of the Rumanian language) "...in the north (of the Balkan peninsula) a Roman population still lived in the former province of Pannonia at least in the sixth century and the question whether the dialect spoken there belonged to east latin or western latin has been discussed by scholars like Tagliavini (in his Le origini delle lingue neolatine) without a definite conclusion..." In his opinion there was a romance dialect spoken around the Lake Balaton during the times of the Plague of Justinian, in the year 541.

Another source is the vatican sponsored website www.orbilat.com and articles (about the research done by Schulze-Dörlamm in 1984 on the 6000 tombs in the Keszthely area) appeared on JSTOR. --Brunodam 04:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So is this a romance language or not?

It would seem that this is a romance language; but the article cannot seem to get its story straight on this simple fact. (Under language, it says nothing is known beyond the fact that this is a centum language. If it is a romance language, it is, by definition, much more specific than a centum language.) The article is just... Very unclear on the basic definition of this language. Grand master ka 07:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone cite one single written document of that language?

Is there any single word found in a written document or on an archeological fund which proves that Latin language was spoken in Pannonia after the fall of the Roman Empire? Otherwise this whole article is only a theory and this should be explained at the beginning. --Hunadam 05:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Read again:According to the french historian André Du Nay (in his book The Origins of the Rumanians -- The early history of the Rumanian language) "...in the north (of the Balkan peninsula) a Roman population still lived in the former province of Pannonia at least in the sixth century and the question whether the dialect spoken there belonged to east latin or western latin has been discussed by scholars like Tagliavini (in his Le origini delle lingue neolatine) without a definite conclusion..." In his opinion there was a romance dialect spoken around the Lake Balaton during the times of the Plague of Justinian, in the year 541. Another source is the vatican sponsored website "www.orbilat.com" and articles (about the research done by Schulze-Dörlamm in 1984 on the 6000 tombs in the Keszthely area) appeared on JSTOR. Why to cancel all these evidences? And the article about it? All this smells of Hungarian nationalism to me....Tom R.W.

Hungarian nationalism

I STRONGLY BELIEVE that the Hungarian nationalism has forced the redirect of the article to "Pannonia", as I have written above to Hunadam. Wikipedia should not be influenced in this way....I believe we all have lost useful and interesting information -with precise and serious references from JSTOR- about a language (the Romance Pannonian) that developed in the lake Balaton area and that was "cut and destroyed" in the beginning by the Hungarian barbars. By the way: not one single evidence has been given AGAINST the evidences of the existence of the Romance Pannonian language! Why the decision against the article is based on elementary and not academical opinions? Where is it the proof that the Romance Pannonian language did not exist? In the doubt, the article should have remained (may be with some commentaries against the existence of this romance language by some wikipedians with contrary opinions). There are many other articles that can be erased, if we apply the same logic! Tom R.W.

Actually, what caused it to be redirected were the arguments given at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Romance Pannonian language. And Wikipedia doesn't run on negative proof fallacies. Grand master ka 05:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect was done because of arguments not based on academical opinions from Hungarian wikipedians (like Hunadam) and this is absolutely not fair. Their superficial opinions and their lack of evidences against what is written in the article are the real negative proof fallacies! I want to repeat:Where is it the proof that the Romance Pannonian language did not exist? In the doubt, the article should have remained (may be with some commentaries against the existence of this romance language by some wikipedians with contrary opinions). I hope the authors of the article will request a revision of the redirect (WP:DRV) .Tom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.202.139 (talk) 15:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Even if the authors personally don't want it, I believe we can request a WP:DRV because the article has been erased on arguments not based on academical opinions (but only on contrary POV, mainly from Hungarian wikipedians), and there it is a reasonable doubt of "suspicion" of nationalism in the decision. Tom

P.S.: I even want to pinpoint that one of the "delete" requests in the discussion came from User:Sambure, a banned sockpuppet. Tom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.203.101 (talk) 19:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]