Talk:Roghnóir

PROD/Merge

The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived.

I have proposed this article for deletion. Not least because the sources in no way support the notability of the term or its common use in English. Three sources are provided. The first is an Irish-English dictionary. Which confirms only that the word exists in Irish. Not that it is in common (or primary/principle) use in English. Giving concerns under WP:EXISTS and WP:USEENGLISH. The other two links in the article DO NOT USE THE TERM. Not the term used in this article at any rate. Both linked articles use the term "selector". And hence do not support the use of the Irish-term in an English-language article. Even if we were to consider that we should have an article on this topic (and personally I am not seeing it), it is quite clearly at the wrong title. Under the relevant guidelines. Guliolopez (talk) 01:01, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. First time I came across the term was when editing the bainisteoir article, yesterday. That, at least, has somewhat widespread use, though I'd still not be convinced it merits its own article - a bainisteoir is essentially a team manager, just with an Irish name, and WP:USEENGLISH may well apply. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:49, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is surprising (if you are familiar with the topic). It is often used in English.

See the following:

Alongside English terms such as "stats", "medical" and "liaison officer"

Everything in English except the words under discussion

Again, with widespread use of English

Radio Kerry using the words as if English readers would be expected to understand them

Hogan Stand using the words as if English readers would be expected to understand them, alongside English terms such as "medical" and "liaison officer"

The role of team officials in a game --Maor Foirne (talk) 18:25, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, so it's a word sometimes used within GAA circles. Meaning nothing more or less than "selector", which is itself used far more extensively. So why not use the English word? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:57, 6 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

At least in Irish language results in gbooks, the term comes up mostly in cookbooks as the Irish word for "gas mark". The sporting meaning does not seem to simply mean selector (sport). If it did, a redirect would do. It's more along the lines of assistant coach as well. I don't think this should be deleted, people may try to look this up from its use in an English language source but there's not enough out there to reference a full article. I feel a merge and redirect would be more suitable, maybe to Gaelic Athletic Association or Coach (sport). It has a lot of incoming links that would need a new target if deleted. Another possibility is a wp:soft redirect to Wiktionary per WP:SOFTSISP if all we can write is a definition. SpinningSpark 16:06, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved Done. Closed. Guliolopez (talk) 19:38, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not appropriate to arbitrarily close a discussion, especially when you have taken unilateral action without reaching a consensus. It's also not appropriate to wipe the article and redirect to a page that does not even mention it. I'm going to revert that. SpinningSpark 19:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi.

RE: Redirect. The redirection suggestion was yours. I am not sure of the concern. As you point out, we have two articles which cover the same topic. One with an Irish language title, and one with an English language title. Having two articles covering the same topic is contrary to norms. Redirection (your own suggestion) is the most reasonable immediate course. (Nobody is using Wikipedia as an Irish language dictionary searching for the Irish word for "gas mark". And, even if they were, Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Certainly not an Irish-English dictionary).

RE: Consensus. Of the four contributors to this discussion, three (myself, yourself and Bastun) have noted that this article and title is almost certainly misplaced. I'm unclear what additional discussion is required. Do you have additional points to raise?

RE: Blanking. None of the references in the article (other than the DICDEF website) support its content. (Not least as most of this was verbatim copy/pasted from an earlier version of the "Manager (Gaelic games)" article. A CFORK). There is nothing to merge to the target article.

Was it a BOLD move? Yes. Probably. Was it contrary to WP:MERGEREASON, WP:CFORK, and other norms? Nope.

What additional discussion do we think is required?

Cheers. Guliolopez (talk) 20:32, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I did not suggest a redirect. I suggested a merge and redirect. Redirecting a term to an article that does not even mention the term is deletion by redirection and contrary to the principle of least astonishment. If you want it gone, take it to AfD, don't try and delete it by the back door. Secondly, I did not suggest selector (sport) as a target. I explicitly highlighted it as a bad choice for a target. Now that you have drawn the article Manager (Gaelic games) to my attention, and that the material was originally there, I now think that would make the better target. Finally, you have got yourself in a stew over cookery. I didn't mean to suggest that people would look up the oookery meaning. It was meant as evidence that the term as a standalone article had little notability for the meaning we are discussing. SpinningSpark 21:26, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Yes. I cannot deny it. I want it gone. And will take it to AfD if there is no consensus for another solution. And, yes, my eagerness to see it gone probably prompted me to misread your comment. I noted that you highlighted the existence of an equivalent article, covering the topic under it's English language title. And, admittedly, extrapolated from there. Not least as "selector" and "roghnóir" are the same term. They are equivalent. There is no divergence in meaning in its use within the Gaelic Athletic Association. Personally I think that makes it a clear target for redirect. (On a separate note, and while this is entirely "my problem", part of my eagerness and frustration here is that an SPA account can unilaterally create a poorly sourced, inapproprialey copypasted, and ill-considered article [and then go about linking it left right and centre] without recourse to consensus or the relevant WikiProject. While that burden does fall on those who might seek to clear up the resulting mess.) Guliolopez (talk) 22:44, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fully agree - a completely unnecessary article. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:34, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bump. Hi. Just revisiting this again. As before, the majority of contributions here suggest that this article has limited value. In that, in effect, its title (the Irish word for a "selector" in sports) is redundant to the existing article on the concept of a "selector" in sports. And, in effect, its content is redundant to the existing article on the role a selector plays in relevant sports. There would appear to be consensus therefore for a redirect (with, perhaps, any cited/non-CFORK/non-SYNTH merged to the target article). Personally it seems pretty clear to me that, as a "translation" of the English language term, the target should be the English language term. As with others in the Category:Redirects from Irish-language terms. Namely Selector (sport). Unless there are other thoughts (or further value from additional discussion) I will make this change shortly. Guliolopez (talk) 10:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I gave my thoughts above and still do not think Selector (sport) is the best merge/redirect target. Claiming you have a majority for that view in a discussion in which only four editors took part, none of whom besides you supported that position, is severely stretching the meaning of majority. SpinningSpark 13:56, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I did not state that a majority believe Selector (sport) should be the target. I stated that a majority believe that the status quo is not appropriate (and that a change is required). I bumped the conversation to figure out what that change should be. So that we can figure that out, can you help me understand why you don't think that "selector" is the correct target. (Given that "roghnóir" is the Irish word for "selector", and the article describes the role of selectors in a specific Irish sport, I personally don't see why it wouldn't be...) PS: Another possible target could, I suppose, be Glossary of Gaelic games terms. Which also includes and defines the concept of a selector/roghnóir (It doesn't use the Irish term. Not least because it is not the commonname/term. Personally I would not recommend this however. Not least as there is limited opportunity to explain why "roghnóir" redirects there. In a way that might be possible/easier if "selector" were the target.) Guliolopez (talk) 14:06, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I fully agree with Guliolopez's proposal of 10:30 this morning. This is a CFORK. A "roghnóir" is a team selector, nothing more, nothing less. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:28, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As I already stated, Manager (Gaelic games) is a more natural target. The term is only ever used in a Gaelic games context. The term is already mentioned there. It seems the roghnóirs are considered assistants to the bainisteoir so it fits well there. You cannot redirect to an article that does not explain to the reader why they are being redirected, but meerging the material into Selector (sport) would be WP:UNDUE because that article is very general and this is very specialised. At most, a "see also" to the appropriate page would be justified. SpinningSpark 17:05, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. A selector (in Gaelic games) is almost never considered an "assistant manager". The author of this article has claimed that. But has not backed it up with any references of any kind. So, in my view, the Manager (Gaelic games) article is not a good target. For that reason alone. My proposal (granted not expressed to date) is to redirect to the Selector (sports) article, and expand it slightly as follows.

In some team sports, a selector is a member of a selection panel which chooses teams or individuals to represent a country or club or other representative team in sporting competitions.

For example, a selector in cricket is an administrative position involved in choosing players to represent a particular team in a match. Or, in Gaelic games a selector (sometimes referred to by the Irish term roghnóir) is a person who helps pick a team to represent a club or county team.

Selectors may be past players, but can also be current coaches. Current captains may also have an influence.

(In making this change I will add the references which are, frankly, conspicuous by their absence in both articles under discussion).

This addresses my and Bastun's concerns (that "selector" is the more natural target). And your concern (that we don't redirect to something that doesn't cover the redirected title).

Thoughts? Guliolopez (talk) 19:56, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can live with that, but if roghnóiri really have nothing to do with coaching the Manager (Gaelic games) page also needs some attention, because it also makes that claim. SpinningSpark 20:58, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Spinningspark. Unless there are other thoughts from other contributors (to suggest an alternative approach) I will make those changes in the coming days. I plan also then, as you have highlighted, to address the phrasing on the other article. Not least as it extrapolates from one piece on selectors for one team, and applies it blanket (a SYNTH association fallacy) to all selectors everywhere. The majority (the rule rather than the exception) do not have a coaching or management role. Take, for example, this list of selectors for each discipline and grade in the Cork county-level set-up. One of each is described as having a coaching/management role. The rest not. And, at a club level, (with every respect to the role and function) selectors tend to be "old guard" (in every sense of the word) club members. Who are unlikely to be confused for someone with an active on-field coaching role. Guliolopez (talk) 23:42, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK. It's been a few days since my note above, and - as there seems to be no major objections to the change - I've gone ahead and made it. Completed the redirect. And merged the mergable content to the target. Are we OK to close this out? Guliolopez (talk) 16:46, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]