Talk:Rock martin/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: —ems 2 4 20:48, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

This is an excellent, interesting article which I feel is almost ready for GA status, but there are just a few things that could be fixed. I'll make some minor changes while I'm reading it.

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

The sexes are similar, but juveniles show pale edges to the upperparts and flight feathers. This is confusing; do you mean to say that juveniles have pale egdes on their upperparts and flight feathers?

changed to "have" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Rock Martin's flight is slow with much gliding as it hunts for the insects on which it feeds while airborne. You're combining two ideas into one sentence here, and its not done very smoothly. Upon the first reading it gives the impression of a run-on sentence, which could be avoided by splitting it. Perhaps, The Rock Martin flies slowly and with much gliding. Upon catching insects, its primary diet, the martin will eat them while airborne. Something along those lines.

The Rock Martin hunts along cliff faces for flying insects using a slow flight with much gliding. The insects aren't necessarily eaten in flight, may be taken to feed young Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...small groups may breed close together in suitable habitats.

changed to "locations" Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Several falcons are fast and agile enough to catch this small martin in flight, and it may carry parasites... While those two situations may be possible, do they actually occur? Providing specific examples or rewording the sentence would be beneficial. Maybe: Occasionally this martin will be attacked in flight by a falcon, or it will carry a parasite...

This small martin is caught in flight by several fast, agile falcon species, such as hobbies, and it sometimes carries parasites, but it faces no major threats. Is this clearer

The Ptyonoprogne species construct an open mud nest... Shouldn't this be plural (construct open mud nests)?

done Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In areas of Pakistan and North Africa where its range overlaps that of other Ptyonopprogne species, the Rock Martin breeds at a different altitude. Do you know what altitude this is?

Sources don't say, and probably difficult to quantify. In Morocco, it's at lower levels than Eurasian Crag Martin, and in Pakistan it's higher than Dusky Crag Martin Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This altitudinal separation means that it is not known whether these two closely related martins could hybridise... Hang on, which other species are you referring to? In the previous sentence it says "other Ptyonopprogne species", but now you're talking about two specific ones. Could you clarify this?

In areas of Pakistan where its range overlaps with that of Dusky Crag Martin and in North Africa where it meets Eurasian Crag Martin, the Rock Martin breeds at a different altitude from the other Ptyonopprogne species. This altitudinal separation means that it is not known whether these closely related martins could hybridise, which would cast doubts as to whether they were all distinct species. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...sometimes split as the Pale Crag Martin, Ptyonoprogne obsoleta,[10][11] following Cabanis... Who is Cabanis? You link his name later in the article, but you don't previously mention him so it should be linked here instead. His full name and a short explanation of what he did would be nice also.

following German ornithologist Jean Cabanis) who first formally described these northern birds. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A sentence or two from the introduction are repeated in the "Description" section. Is this really necessary?

tweaked a bit, but some similarity inevitable Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The other subspecies differ from the nominate form as detailed above, although in general size decreases and plumage becomes paler from south to north. This is a strange sentence, especially the latter half. A rewording might be beneficial. Maybe, northern subspecies are generally smaller and have paler plumage than in southern regions.?

rewritten The other subspecies differ from the nominate form as detailed above. Northern subspecies are generally smaller and have paler plumage than those in southern regions; they also have a white chin and throat, whereas southern forms have these areas rufous brown.

This is a quiet bird; the song is a muffled twitter, and other calls include a trrt like Common House Martin, and a nasal vick. Can you describe what these calls are mainly used for? For example, does the bird primarily use one as a warning signal, and use the other for a different purpose?

added and a high pitched twee contact call., other vocalisations are unspecified Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rock Martin is much drabber than most African swallows... You previously have been saying "the Rock Martin", so you should try to be consistent here. This occurs in a few other places with 'Eurasian Crag Martin'.

fixed Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:44, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...although many birds descend to lower altitudes... When do they do this? Is it only for part of the year, or do some birds simply make the decision to live at lower altitudes?
added after breeding - they are not tied to the cliffs then, and insects are more plentiful in winter at lower altitudes Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:31, 29 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...and unusually for a swallow may be found far from water. A bit awkward. Do you really need 'unusually for a swallow'? If so, consider putting that phrase in parentheses or at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle.

removed Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crag Martin pairs often nest alone..." This is an article about the Rock Martin, not the Crag Martin. Is that a mistake?

yes, fixed Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The clutch is usually two or three buff-white eggs with blotched with sepia... "With blotched with"?

fixed

The insects taken depend on what is locally available, but may include mosquitoes and other flies... 'Taken' isn't a great word to use there; perhaps 'caught' or 'eaten' would be more appropriate.

caught Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This martin often feeds alone, but sizeable groups may congregate... Again, 'congregate' is an odd word to use in this context. It gets the point across, though something as simple as 'gather' might be more relevant.

gather Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A study of nine bird species including four hirundines showed that the more young in the nest the more frequent were the parents' feeding visits, but not in proportion to the increase in the number of young; so that on the average a solitary nestling gets more food than a member of a pair or of a trio. This sentence contains a lot of information and may be overwhelming; consider splitting it into two or more sentences.

A study of nine bird species including four hirundines showed that the more young there are in a nest, the more frequent are the parents' feeding visits, but the visits do not increase in proportion to the number of young. On average a solitary nestling therefore gets more food than a member of a pair or of a trio. Since the nestling period is not prolonged in proportion to the drop in feeding-rate, an individual fledging from a larger brood is likely to weigh less when it leaves the nest. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:12, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

|Prose is generally good; though you seem to have a tendency to put a lot of information or thoughts into one sentence. Here are some specific comments. Feel free to play around with my suggested wordings; they're just to give you a general idea of what I'm thinking about specific sentences.

The sexes are similar, but juveniles show pale edges to the upperparts and flight feathers. This is confusing; do you mean to say that juveniles have pale egdes on their upperparts and flight feathers?
The Rock Martin's flight is slow with much gliding as it hunts for the insects on which it feeds while airborne. You're combining two ideas into one sentence here, and its not done very smoothly. Upon the first reading it gives the impression of a run-on sentence, which could be avoided by splitting it. Perhaps, The Rock Martin flies slowly and with much gliding. Upon catching insects, its primary diet, the martin will eat them while airborne. Something along those lines.
...small groups may breed close together in suitable habitats.
Several falcons are fast and agile enough to catch this small martin in flight, and it may carry parasites... While those two situations may be possible, do they actually occur? Providing specific examples or rewording the sentence would be beneficial. Maybe: Occasionally this martin will be attacked in flight by a falcon, or it will carry a parasite...
The Ptyonoprogne species construct an open mud nest... Shouldn't this be plural (construct open mud nests)?
In areas of Pakistan and North Africa where its range overlaps that of other Ptyonopprogne species, the Rock Martin breeds at a different altitude. Do you know what altitude this is?
This altitudinal separation means that it is not known whether these two closely related martins could hybridise... Hang on, which other species are you referring to? In the previous sentence it says "other Ptyonopprogne species", but now you're talking about two specific ones. Could you clarify this?
...sometimes split as the Pale Crag Martin, Ptyonoprogne obsoleta,[10][11] following Cabanis... Who is Cabanis? You link his name later in the article, but you don't previously mention him so it should be linked here instead. His full name and a short explanation of what he did would be nice also.
A sentence or two from the introduction are repeated in the "Description" section. Is this really necessary?
The other subspecies differ from the nominate form as detailed above, although in general size decreases and plumage becomes paler from south to north. This is a strange sentence, especially the latter half. A rewording might be beneficial. Maybe, northern subspecies are generally smaller and have paler plumage than in southern regions.?
This is a quiet bird; the song is a muffled twitter, and other calls include a trrt like Common House Martin, and a nasal vick. Can you describe what these calls are mainly used for? For example, does the bird primarily use one as a warning signal, and use the other for a different purpose?
Rock Martin is much drabber than most African swallows... You previously have been saying "the Rock Martin", so you should try to be consistent here. This occurs in a few other places with 'Eurasian Crag Martin'.
...although many birds descend to lower altitudes... When do they do this? Is it only for part of the year, or do some birds simply make the decision to live at lower altitudes?

clarified as after breeding, basically they aren't tied to the cliff nesting sites then, and it's warmer at lower levels

...and unusually for a swallow may be found far from water. A bit awkward. Do you really need 'unusually for a swallow'? If so, consider putting that phrase in parentheses or at the end of the sentence instead of in the middle.
Crag Martin pairs often nest alone..." This is an article about the Rock Martin, not the Crag Martin. Is that a mistake?
The clutch is usually two or three buff-white eggs with blotched with sepia... "With blotched with"?
The insects taken depend on what is locally available, but may include mosquitoes and other flies... 'Taken' isn't a great word to use there; perhaps 'caught' or 'eaten' would be more appropriate.
This martin often feeds alone, but sizeable groups may congregate... Again, 'congregate' is an odd word to use in this context. It gets the point across, though something as simple as 'gather' might be more relevant.
A study of nine bird species including four hirundines showed that the more young in the nest the more frequent were the parents' feeding visits, but not in proportion to the increase in the number of young; so that on the average a solitary nestling gets more food than a member of a pair or of a trio. This sentence contains a lot of information and may be overwhelming; consider splitting it into two or more sentences.|}}

B. MoS compliance:
A few comments:

This article neads more wikilinks. Starting in the second sentence, Africa, Asia, and Pakistan should all be linked to their relevant articles. Technical terms should be linked also – 'underwing coverts' could be linked to the 'covert' article. You do have some links already, but not enough. Remember, you shouldn't assume that your readers have any background knowledge on this topic at all. See WP:Link if you need advice.

I disagree with links to countries, at FAC this is seen as overlinking. I've moved the coverts link to first occurence, and added a couple more links. Let me know if there are any other terms I should link Jimfbleak - talk to me?

'Status' is rather vague for a section heading; consider renaming that section 'Conservation status', or similar.

now Conservation status Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:
Refs look good.

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:
A few section could be expanded if possible, such as 'Predators and parasites' and 'Status'. This isn't necessary for a GA, however. Otherwise, both coverage and focus look good.
I would if I could, but it's difficult for most bird species to get RS for specific predators and parasites. I have a contact who might get me some fleas before FAC. Status, I can't find anything more that is in the text, not well studied. I found this difficult even for the much better known European species Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
This article seems a bit skimpy with images, so if you can add any more free-use pictures of the bird it would improve it greatly. If possible, I'd recommend replacing the infobox image with a better view of the bird. If there aren't any more free images though, it's understandable.
I would if I could, but there isn't really any thing else Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Overall:
Pass or Fail:
I'll put the article on hold for a week for the above issues to be fixed. Great job with it. —ems 2 4 22:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the wait. I still have a small problem with the prose; but as I'm pretty busy in real life I'm going to ask for another editor's opinion on this. —ems 2 4 21:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

2nd opinion

I'll give the article another review. I'll put any comments here. Ucucha 23:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Do you need the bold for "Pale Crag Martin"?~~

probably not, debolded

"The genus Ptyonoprogne is closely related to the larger swallow genus Hirundo into which it is often subsumed, but a DNA analysis showed that an enlarged Hirundo genus should contain all the mud-builder genera, including the Delichon house martins, a practice which few authorities follow. Although the nests of the Ptyonoprogne crag martins resembles those of typical Hirundo species like the Barn Swallow, the research showed that if Delichon, Cecropis and Petrochelidon are split from Hirundo, Ptyonoprogne should be also considered as a separate genus."—both sentences say almost the same thing. Perhaps restructure to make it more concise?

rephrased less repetitiously

~~"It is largely resident apart from local movements after breeding, although many birds descend to lower altitudes after breeding."—any way to get rid of the double "after breeding" here?~~

It is largely resident apart from local movements or a descent to lower altitudes after breeding

~~What are "Predators and parasites" doing under "Behaviour"?~~

level 2 now

The text says it breeds throughout Africa, which is not consistent with the map, which shows a very patchy range. Also some specific points: you have subspecies occurring in western and southern Sudan and in Niger, where the map doesn't show the species occurring at all. The text says it's vagrant in Kuwait, but the map shows it doesn't occur there at all.

The Rock Martin breeds in suitable habitat throughout Africa. Do you mean Niger? It looks OK to me. Sudan added, my map source for the middle part of Africa was very small and without country boundaries. By definition, you wouldn't expect vagrants to be mapped. Oriental Pratincole would never have the UK on its map because it's so rare here.

I'm not sure exactly what I was thinking there. I confused Mali and Niger: the map shows an extensive distribution in Niger, but none in Mali, where spatzi is said to occur. Also, I meant to say that the map shows Kuwait as a normal part of the range, even though it is said to be vagrant there. The suitable habitat part helps. Ucucha 16:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mali added, Kuwait removed, although from the topography it looks as if it should breed in the western hills.

Thanks. There are still a few points that don't look entirely realistic (the borders of its distribution coincide a little too well with country borders in southern Africa, for example, and it doesn't seem to have any distribution in Angola), but at some point any range map is an approximation. Ucucha 21:04, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images are well-licensed and sources look reliable; formatting isn't quite consistent but that's not required for GA.
I do see ems24's point about the long sentences and perhaps some copyediting is necessary for this to become an FA, but all GA requires is clear and grammatically correct prose, and I don't see problems with either.

tweaked a bit anyway

Ucucha 23:33, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for picking this up. I'm off to try to see an Oriental Pratincole shortly, but I'll address these within next 24 Jimfbleak - talk to me? 04:31, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, all points addressed as above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And did the Pratincole work out? That certainly sounds special. Ucucha 16:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Map tweaked as above. Even the European Collared Pratincole is a good rarity here, the middle eastern Black-winged Pratincole is rarer still, and it's astonishing that the Oriental species (nearest breeding Pakistan) has got here no less than 6 times. I saw one years ago, but worth a couple of hours driving to see this one. An odd group, technically shorebirds, but catch insects in the air like swallows. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 18:11, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good. I am now happy to pass the article as a GA, and as ems24 above appears to be asking for another editor to take the decision, I will pass it. Ucucha 21:04, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]