Talk:Roberta Williams/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Indrian (talk · contribs) 21:48, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am way (waaaaaay) overdue on another GA review, but this is a far less complicated topic. I would be happy to look this over. Indrian (talk) 21:48, 25 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Early Life

There are a lot of holes here. Too many for a GA. No mention of her maiden name (Heuer), no mention of her attending Citrus Junior College, no mention of her first job as a typist for the county welfare department, nothing about her job as a computer operator, nothing about their constant moving as Ken took various jobs, etc. This info is out there. Ken Williams’s memoir is a great source for this and Steve Levy’s Hackers has some of it as well.
”and the two quickly became married” - Awkward. People marry, they do not become married.

Career

” By 1979, Roberta had two children” - Ken and Roberta had two children. This construction implies Ken had nothing to do with it or them.
”The game is remembered as the first home computer game to include graphics.” - This is not even close to true. Dozens of Apple II games released in 1978 and 1979 had graphics.
“The games were distributed by mail order” - It was also sold in computer stores. In fact, Ken also sold the software of other companies to stores up and down the West Coast. A business Ken later sold and became the genesis of Softsel.
” allowing them to form a company called On-Line Systems.” - No, On-Line was formed before they sold Mystery House. The earliest ads for the game in 1980 feature On-Line Systems. And it was always a game development company from the moment they made the decision to sell games. The company itself may have been formed in Ken’s consulting phase, the sources are vague on this, but it was not a consulting firm once Mystery House was being sold.
Another major hole: this is a biography, but there is nothing about the personal motivations in moving from LA to the mountains. The memoir and Hackers are both all over this.
” It was also the first computer game to feature animated characters” - As with the graphics claim, this is not close to true. Dozens of arcade game clones in the early 1980s had animated characters. Sierra had games with animated characters before King’s Quest.
There are so many more holes in her early career. The struggles of Sierra between 1982 and 1984 that included Roberta’s big moment when she prevented the venture capitalists from merging Sierra with Spinnaker is also completely absent.

I could go on, but I am going to stop here. Read the Sierra chapters of Hackers, read Ken Williams’s memoir, read every Sierra article at the Digital Antiquarian, and then flesh this article out more. I will put this review On hold to give a chance for changes, but there is a lot of work to do. If all the concerns with the early part of the article are addressed, I will continue reviewing, but right now there is enough to do that I don’t see the point in a detailed blow-by-blow of the rest. Indrian (talk) 00:55, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback, Indrian. I have done my best to address all of your suggestions. I would love to use the Digital Antiquarian, and I personally believe their research is of the highest quality. But if I were to refer to that, this nomination would quick-fail based on using an unreliable self-published source, so I'm left using the sources that are considered reliable, which are often oversimplified. Much of the information in Digital Antiquarian isn't covered in other reliable sources (including what appears to be a first-hand interview with Ken's brother John). While I can rephrase and re-order them, and even remove parts that have been summarized inaccurately by other sources, I can't venture off into full-on original research. If you want to support turning the Digital Antiquarian into a reliable source, I would very much like to do that in a discussion at WP:VG/RS.
With that said, I was able to find a few more sources, plus the Hackers source at your recommendation. I have also added some background to some of the corporate history, even though I worry I have strayed off topic. I'm doing my best to keep the article focused on Roberta as an author and creator, instead of Sierra as a company. I need us to both keep in mind that this article is about Roberta, and not Ken or Sierra.
I was able to expand the article by another 15-20%, which I hope demonstrates how serious I am about improving this article to GA quality (and eventually FA quality if I can get my hands on the Ken Williams source). I genuinely would appreciate the blow-by-blow, because the sources *are* lacking. I hope you can see the significant improvements based on your feedback, and I intend to keep working at this nomination one way or another. Shooterwalker (talk) 05:17, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your response and for the article expansion. I will look at the changes soon. As regards Digital Antiquarian, when I said read it, I did not mean cite it. Jimmy is usually pretty good at saying where his information came from in each post (except for some of the early ones), so even though his blog cannot be used directly, it can provide a lot of context and lead to other usable sources. As for its reliability as a source, Digital Antiquarian is reliable as a self-published source because Jimmy is a published expert in the field (by MIT Press no less). The VG Project list is a helpful guide, but has no actual authority in regards to anointing or discrediting a source. That said, self-published sources are strictly not allowed in BLP articles, so despite its underlying reliability, it cannot be used in this article. Indrian (talk) 11:06, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That makes sense. I did pull the Digital Antiquarian up as a cross reference while I was diving through Hackers... which helped, though I could not support the more colorful parts. I'm going to see if I can dig up the Ken Williams book somehow. I'll be candid that I'd have a hard time summarizing a memoir into an encyclopedia article, which I don't think is a bad thing, considering this is already more detailed than the most thorough articles about Roberta in other reliable sources. But if I can find that book, I'm confident I would be able to reference any parts of the story that you think are interesting and important. (And clarify pieces that other reliable sources may have summarized incorrectly.) I'm still grateful for all your help at Accolade (company) as someone who is evidently very knowledgable about video game history. What I lack in knowledge I can make up for in time, patience, and willingness to verify claims that don't have a source yet. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:11, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. I certainly don't doubt your dedication to the work, and I am sure together we can get this into GA shape just as we did with Accolade! Regarding Ken's book, I do think it will be essential to fill in a few holes. Note that while I believe he self published, the exception to the no self-published sources in BLP rule is when the person is writing about him or her self. While Roberta is not strictly a co-author on the book, she did read through it and offer input and is quoted a couple of times. Plus, the important info is stuff that happened to both Ken and Roberta, so in writing about his experiences, he is also writing about hers. So I think it skates by. Indrian (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for working with me. This is a harder topic that will take more work, but I'm confident that the GA process will be the best way to get it there. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:46, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just a heads up that I have not forgotten this. I had a busy couple of weeks, but next week we will get this over the finish line. Indrian (talk) 11:08, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for checking in. Will be ready when you are. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:44, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Indrian: I have a bit of time during the holidays and wanted to take a crack at this. Let me know where you think the biggest gaps in coverage are (let alone any inaccuracies), and I'll see if I can pull up the appropriate research. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:12, 26 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Will do. Indrian (talk) 23:46, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The biggest holes remain at the beginning of the article. She held a few jobs before Sierra, most notably as a computer operator. We also need more on the move to the mountains. This was a personal decision by Ken and Roberta to not raise their kids in LA, so that’s a key biographical detail. More info is also needed around the design of King’s Quest and Phantasmagoria. Particularly her inspirations. Indrian (talk) 02:19, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Indrian: I was able to find a copy of Ken's self-published book a few weeks ago. I mined it for some of the details you asked for. It's possible there are certain details I missed, or conflict with other sources. I think we're close, but it could use one more pass for correctness and broadness, plus any constructive criticism where the prose needs work. Thanks again for all your help. Shooterwalker (talk) 04:15, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am loving the new additions. I agree we are almost there. I will take a final pass at it in the next day or so. Indrian (talk) 15:49, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your guidance and I'm glad we're making progress. I'm thinking about restructuring the subheadings in her main career section, doing the List of Hi-Res Adventures video games for the first section, Phantasmagoria as the last section, and King's Quest (most of them) in the middle. Not sure if the prose will flow quite right, but it does seem like the logical flow of her career. Mostly just thinking out loud. I'm excited to wrap this up and get this to GA. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:44, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I should have some time to wrap this up in the back half of the week. Indrian (talk) 03:00, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Indrian: I figure life is busy right now. Let me know when you might have time to give this one more read. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:24, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I thought sure I was going to wrap this up late last week, but I finally got the time I needed to eye the article critically. I only made a couple of minor changes to the article and feel it is now ready to promote. Thank you so much for your hard work; the article has come a long way since the start of the review and now does a great job of capturing her life and work from the available sources. Well done! Indrian (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for helping me identify the gaps. Really glad we could bring this one up to quality. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.