Talk:Robert Todd Lincoln/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cessaune (talk · contribs) 05:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All right, let's do this! Will be done in a week or less. Cessaune [talk] 05:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written: ?
1. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct: N (kind of?)
  - Spelling and grammar are fine. The prose is a bit awkward. I've just never seen writing like it on Wikipedia.
    - ? Interesting word choice. The prose has this aspect of... weak sensationalism that doesn't conform to the typical standards of encyclopedic writing (I would definitely mark this with a {{tone}} cleanup template). A few examples (emphasis mine):
      - In 1871, tragedy beset the family again when Lincoln's only surviving brother, Tad, died at the age of 18, leaving his mother devastated with grief. | Excess characterization; can be simplified.
      - One such example that gives insight into his father's indulgence and childhood in general was related by Joseph Humphreys, who had taken a train to Lexington in 1847: | This can be vastly simplified.
      - At every turn, he adamantly disavowed any interest in running and stated he would not accept nomination for either position. | A word such as adamantly is rarely approriate in a Wikivoice sense; a direct quote of the source or a less vivid word such as repeatedly dually sums up adamantly and at every turn while avoiding the aforementioned Wikivoice issues.
        Done All of the above have been adjusted. An aside: this article occasionally goes through extensive editing/re-editing. Some of this puffery/sensationalistic verbage is a relic of past editing, I've corrected/edited/adjusted what I could find. Shearonink (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    - ? Tying into the above point, extensive use of the m-dash that I've never seen before on Wikipedia. Example:
      - He attended law classes at the Old University of Chicago – now Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law – and studied law at the Chicago firm of Scammon, McCagg & Fuller. | I would either replace the dashes with commas, or drop the middle clause altogether, as anyone who is interested need only click twice to get to the present-day school.
        Done I have gone through and edited & excised all of the various m-dashes. Shearonink (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    - N People's ages. Example: Of Robert's children, Jessie Harlan Lincoln Beckwith (1875–1948) had two children, but neither of them – Mary Lincoln Beckwith ("Peggy" 1898–1975) nor Robert Todd Lincoln Beckwith ("Bud" 1904–1985) – had children of their own. Robert's other daughter, Mary Todd Lincoln ("Mamie" 1869–1938) married Charles Bradford Isham in 1891. For the purposes of this bio, people's birth and death years are irrelevant.
      - Done That particular section has been cleaned-up. As to the ages of RTL's own children...I think it is encyclopedic and of interest to our readership to include the life dates of his children. I am sure most of our readership have no idea that 2 of Abraham Lincoln's grandchildren survived the Great Depression and one even outlived the end of WWII. Abraham Lincoln II's short life had a great impact on his father, the dates seem important to me. But let's discuss - I can change my mind. Shearonink (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: ?
  - As I said above, certain words are a bit too vivid. The beginning of the family section does not need to have the list of children; the necessary details can easily fit into the general prose. Besides that, the rest is fine.
    - Done See above sections. Shearonink (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Verifiable with no original research: Y
- I'm not going to go into this in detail since the previous reviewer already did such a good job of handling the sourcing. I checked the diff and verified the few added sources; good to go.
Broad in its coverage: ?
1. it addresses the main aspects of the topic: Y
  - Little to be said here. I disagree with the previous reviewer's assertion that There are significant gaps in this biography; everything that is necessary is here. (Some aspects of his career could be explained a little more, but that's a trivial thing.)
2. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style): N
  - Way too much detail, especially in the Civil War years section. The previous reviewer sums it up nicely: "The family and early life section is a massive stretch of various biographical details, while the career sections are sometimes just a couple sentences." I don't think you've adequately addressed that issue. The main change I would make would be to trim the sections on his relationship with his father and mother. They take up more room than they need to.
    - Heh, the problem is this—that many of his biographers & many historians don't seem to care all that much about his career but point taken. Trimming & adjusting Done, hope it's enough. Let me know if not. Shearonink (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each: Y
Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. Y
Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: Y
1. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; Y
2. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: ?
  - I would remove the images of his children. Referring back to the previous reviewer, "I'm not convinced that the images of other people are necessary, especially since they're all thumbnail size."
    - Done Images removed. Shearonink (talk) 22:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I don't think that this article at this time is ready to be promoted to GA-class. As such, I'm going to put this nomination on hold. Don't worry about the seven-day limit, which is really just an arbitrary formality; ping me anytime and I'll re-review it. If you don't want to go through this process again, notify me and I will fail this article. If you think that any part of my review is in error, ping me. Please continue to improve articles; hopefully this one can be improved to GA-class (and maybe even FA-class) someday! Cessaune [talk] 21:03, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cessaune Went through and I think I've responded to all your points. Let me know if anything remaining isn't to your satisfaction. Shearonink (talk) 23:13, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to list out every potential issue I see in the text by section.

Lead

...to outlive his mother to ...to outlive both parents | already talks about both of them in the beginning of the sentence, so to maintain consistency

Split into two sentences: Lincoln was born in Springfield, Illinois, and graduated from Harvard College. He then served on the staff of Ulysses S. Grant as a captain in the Union Army in the closing days of the American Civil War. | long sentence

The one office to which he was elected was town supervisor of South Chicago, which he held from 1876 to 1877; to He served as the town supervisor of South Chicago from 1876 to 1877; | more in line with FA-class political bios such as Ronald Reagan

I just deleted the Town Supervisor statement, seems out of kilter to mention in the lead section. Shearonink (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As a result of such a change, this sentence would be moved back one, and the preceding sentence would read something like ...Lincoln was often spoken of as a possible candidate for a national government position, including the presidency, but never took steps to mount a campaign.

Done Shearonink (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed this. In the lead: six days before his 83rd birthday. In the body: five days before he was due to turn 83. I don't know if this is actually a mistake, but it confused me for a second.

Done Shearonink (talk) 02:19, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Trimming:

Delete this: Donald's opinion seems to be based on the writings of Lincoln biographer Frederick Trevor Hill and scholar Wayne C. Temple. Hill would write that "The Hon. Robert Lincoln told the writer that he distinctly remembers seeing his father start out on horseback, with his saddle-bags, to accompany the judge on the circuit." | level of specificity that isn't strictly necessary

Not done Actually in my opinion it is important/necessary. A basically untrue statement about Robert Todd Lincoln and about something he supposedly stated has crept into the historical narrative and has been accepted as if it is a quote. It is not a verifiable fact, it is not a quote and it is important to state what is verifiable about the matter. Shearonink (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I would suggest deleting the whole thing. It is fine to state a single person's opinion, but to state the reason for the singular person's opinion is approaching a too-high level of specificity IMO. If, for example, "the principal memory" thing was an opinion held by many scholars, it would be necessary to help the reader understand where the discrepancy between Lincoln's own telling and the telling of modern scholars was introduced. Since it's just some dude, we don't have to care about his opinion to that extent; if his opinion is an opinion widely held by scholars, then the article should say such. As it stands, based on your reasoning I would delete, along with the above sentence in red, this sentence: Robert's memory of the saddlebags has been changed from his personal "distinctly remembers" (Hill in 1906) to "the first memory" (Temple in 1960), then in 1995 becoming "the principal memory" of his childhood in Donald's Lincoln. Cessaune [talk] 03:41, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have instead moved the info into a Notes section. It's not just some "dude" - Donald has a Wikipedia article and his book about RTL, "Lincoln", is one of the most recent and widely-read biographies about the man. The bit about the saddlebags is not a principal memory of his childhood and is not the most vivid image of his childhood. In my opinion Donald has taken one memory and blown it up all out of proportion. What was important to me to show here is that it's a slippery slope from "distinctly remembers"->"first memory"->"principal memory". The first author had it right, but by the third it had transmogrified like the game of "Telephone" into a different concept. Anything written about the Lincolns has a tendency to lean towards the hagiographic, one well-known author's opinion can easily somehow become a historical "fact". I'd just like to avoid that in this case.Shearonink (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I understand why this is included, but if I'm following correctly, it amounts to original research. Unless a reliable source lays this out, we can note the different authors' comments, but shouldn't add our own reasoning to a point of synthesis. —ADavidB 08:17, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Adavidb Hmmmm...ok, I can see your point. I've adjusted the Note to hopefully only stick to the facts. I don't think it's synthesis or original research to lay out what different historians/authors have stated about Abraham's travels and the words they use to characterize Robert's statements about those travels when Robert was a child. Let me know what you think now. Shearonink (talk) 14:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The current version is much better. Thanks —ADavidB 16:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When his father became president of the United States on the eve of the Civil War, Lincoln was the only one of the president's three children to be largely on his own. | What does this mean? I'm kinda confused. I'm sure this can be clarified.

Deleted. Shearonink (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lincoln was then enrolled at Phillips Exeter Academy to further prepare for attending college, and he graduated in 1860 to Lincoln was subsequently enrolled at Phillips Exeter Academy to prepare for college, and graduated in 1860 | worded weirdly IMO

Done Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 03:07, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Civil War years

Delete this: When he initially expressed interest in the law school to his father, President Lincoln made reference to his own pleasant, but informal legal training by stating "If you do, you should learn more than I ever did, but you will never have so good a time." | it's really not all that relevant or noteworthy

It was human interest, a personal anecdote but it's been deleted. Shearonink (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Much to the embarrassment of the president, Mary Todd Lincoln prevented Robert Lincoln from joining the Army until shortly before the war's conclusion. "We have lost one son, and his loss is as much as I can bear, without being called upon to make another sacrifice," Mary Todd Lincoln insisted to President Lincoln to Mary Todd Lincoln prevented Robert from joining the Army until shortly before the war's conclusion, citing the death of William. | more concise, shorter, and deletes one of many quotes in that short paragraph

Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

...President Lincoln wrote Ulysses Grant to ...President Lincoln wrote to Ulysses Grant | wrote in the first context is rarely used in a modern sense, but it isn't technically wrong

Left this one alone.

...which meant he probably would not be involved in any actual combat to ...which meant he was likely not involved in any actual combat. | probably is too vague

Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

...before John Wilkes Booth's assassination of President Lincoln (April 14, 1865) to ...before John Wilkes Booth's assassination of President Lincoln. | anyone interested will click of the preceding link, the date isn't necessary

Date deleted. Shearonink (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Split into two paragraphs: Lincoln also acknowledged that he was aware of the "great inconvenience" that Johnson had since becoming president of the United States only a short time earlier./Following his father's assassination, in April 1865 Robert moved to the city of Chicago with his remaining family.

Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Family

Reword the list to fit it into the prose: They had three children, two daughters and one son: Mary "Mamie" Lincoln, Abraham "Jack" Lincoln II, and Jessie Harlan Lincoln. | There is no good reason for these names to be arranged in a list. The dates are interesting but ultimately not relevant to Lincoln's bio.

In my opinion, the dates are relevant but it's all been adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete In an era before air conditioning, Robert, Mary, and the children would often leave their hot city life behind for the cooler climate of Mt. Pleasant. During the 1880s the family would summer at the Harlan home. | isn't really that important in the grand scheme of Lincoln's life

Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 04:59, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Trimming:

In 1871, Lincoln's only surviving brother, Tad, died at the age of 18, leaving his mother devastated with grief. Lincoln was ~~already~~ concerned about what he thought were his mother's "spend-thrift" ways, hallucinations, paranoia, and increasingly eccentric behaviors ~~and thoughts~~. Fearing that she was a danger to herself, he arranged to have her committed to a psychiatric hospital in Batavia, Illinois, in 1875. With his mother in the hospital, he was left with control of her finances, although he used his own money to pay for her care. As the head of the family, he felt that it was his duty to protect her, although he did wish that she would have "every liberty and privilege" restored to her as soon as she was better. On May 20, 1875, she arrived at Bellevue Place, a private, upscale sanitarium in the Fox River Valley.

Three months after she started living there, Mary Lincoln was able to escape from Bellevue Place. She smuggled letters to her lawyer, James B. Bradwell, and his wife, Myra~~, who was Mary's friend as well as a feminist lawyer and spiritualist.~~ Mary also wrote to the editor of the Chicago Times and shortly, the embarrassment Robert had hoped to avoid came to the forefront, with his motives and character being publicly questioned. ~~Faced with the publicity,~~ Bellevue's director, who at Mary's commitment trial assured the jury she would benefit from treatment at his facility, now declared her well enough to go to Springfield to live with her sister. Her commitment and subsequent events alienated Lincoln from his mother, and they did not ~~possibly~~ reconcile until shortly before her unexpected death ~~from a stroke~~.

Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 05:18, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Politics

Delete It went through several name changes, and is now called Glenwood Academy

Add this instead: ...establish the Illinois Industrial Training School for Boys (now known as Glenwood Academy) in Norwood Park in 1887

Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 05:18, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Later life and career

...clashing with Lincoln biographer William Herndon over Herndon's statements about his famous father to ...clashing with Lincoln biographer William Herndon over his statements about his father. | more neutral

Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 05:18, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I can't think of a good way to word this, but this sentence is awkward and confusing: Lincoln arranged to have Pullman quietly excused from the subpoena issued for Pullman to testify in the 1895 trials of the leaders of the American Railway Union for conspiracy during the 1894 Pullman strike.

Adjusted. Shearonink (talk) 05:18, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Everything else is fine/good. Cessaune [talk] 00:44, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not perfect, but it's good. You passed! Good job. Cessaune [talk] 17:15, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Are you going to sumbit a DYK nom? If not, I'd be more than happy to do one. Cessaune [talk] 17:19, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as the saying goes..."perfect is the enemy of good". Yes, I'll submit the DYK. Shearonink (talk) 19:16, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]