Talk:Robert McLean (minister)

Views expressed

The article states:

While he was a conservative theologian, McLean was also open minded and was not afraid to voice his opinion on controversial issues. His popularity with his congregation allowed him to publicly express progressive views on several controversial issues of the day. For example, he spoke publicly in support of the theory of evolution. Another example was his view on prohibition. While he was opposed to the use of alcohol, he did not believe the government should outlaw its use.

References

The Morning Oregonian cited in the article says:

THIRD PRESBYTERIAN TO A MAN SUPPORTS DR. M'LEAN

The severe fire of criticism to which the Rev. Robert McLean, pastor of the Third Presbyterian Church, East Side, has been subjected on account of his publicly expressed views on the subject of "Evolution," has given him considerable prominence; but it may be said that Dr. McLean has not been subjected to any more severe criticism that he voiced in his public arraignment in his own pulpit of the views expressed by the Rev. H. W. Kellogg in a sermon on evolution in Taylor-street Church. In his arraignment of Dr. Kellogg's sermon, Dr. McLean did not mention the former's name, but there could be no mistaking whom he meant, and it was generally known that he referred to Dr. Kellogg. From the attack Dr. McLean made on the views of Dr. Kellogg arose the discussion that has continued in this city ever since, and also the criticisms which he himself has felt.

*** Dr. McLean feels a little aggrieved over the handling his ideas of evolution has received, but has forgotten that he is a pretty hard hitter himself. ***

Dr. McLean has the satisfaction of knowing that his position on evolution is fully indorsed by more than 99 per cent of the members of the Third Presbyterian Church, and the other 1 per cent support him whether they coincide with his views or not. His church is a unit at his back. The leading members of his church have expressed themselves strongly in his favor.

From this I am able to conclude

• Drs. McLean and Kellogg both expressed views re evolution in sermons, McLean at 3rd Presbyterian and Kellogg at the Taylor-street Church
• These views were in opposition to each other
• The 3rd Presbyterian church supported the views of Dr. McLean
• There was a public discussion of the subject

But I am unable to figure out which of these men spoke in favor of evolution and which one spoke against. Have I missed something? YBG (talk) 05:34, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

It appears to me neither McLean nor Kellogg supported evolution outright. Kellogg reviewed a book, Evolution Disproved, which presents an amusing mathematical proof that evolution is wrong. A review of a McLean sermon titled "Against Evolution" presents a more nuanced argument on the subject of "Faith". McLean says, "Faith I define as belief in the unseen. This is, I think, a sufficiently clear distinction between what is commonly accepted as faith, and what is understood as reason." He goes on to criticise "superficial thinkers" who "make an unwarranted distinction between faith and science, as if faith were something visionary and unreal, while science was exact knowledge...." Toward the end of the review of his sermon, he rejects evolution as a "scheme for dispensing with God and Christianity." McLean is quoted as pointing out that evolution was repudiated by more than 600 British scientists, and it "probably is repudiated today by the great mass of scientists and scholars in all countries." His conclusion is, "By faith we fight, by faith we stand, by faith we overcome." So not an endorsement of evolution, though not a silly "mathematical proof" against the validity of evolution. Cheers! — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 17:58, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

P.S. Our article Creationism describes the spectrum of religious views of scientific topics. Kellogg and McLean were no doubt on different ends of the creationist spectrum. As a child, I heard many discussions on "the harmony between science and the scriptures", and comparatively speaking, from Kellogg's perspective, McLean could be perceived as supporting evolutionary arguments because he favored a reliance on faith in interpreting the scientific evidence, evn perhaps suggesting metaphorical interpretations of scriptural passages that conflict with scientific knowledge, i.e. "belief in the unseen". — Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 20:55, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

• Grand'mere Eugene … Thanks for your follow-up research on the Kellogg-McLean debate! I think you are right, the two represented contrasting views of Creationism. So, I have modified the McLean article text to say McLean “… supported public debate on the theory of evolution.” Very nice work!--Orygun (talk) 06:02, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

• @Orygun: Nicely done. I couldn't figure out how exactly to express this, and you've done a good job. I do still think that paragraph suffers from a bit of WP:SYNTH, but at least now it isn't pulling rabbits out of hats. YBG (talk) 06:37, 8 October 2021 (UTC)