Talk:Robert Gayre

General comment

You cannot "transform" yourself into the head of a clan! You either are, or are not, the proven Chief. In addition, Gayre already possessed property and a small castle (still owned by his son) as well as a house in Edinburgh, in Scotland. Sounds like another smear job to me. Also, citing such a totally disreputable communist rag as Searchlight as an accurate respectable source on anyone's article page is simply insulting. Gayre was a great Scot. David Lauder 07:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the poorly sourced claims. Please review this revision for accuracy, as I am not familiar with the Byzantine subculture of heraldry and Scottish clans, etc. As for the Searchlight, it appears to meet the criteria for a reliable published source, although it also appears quite certain the political views of Searchlight authors and Gayre were diametric. Jokestress 23:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Dr Gayre’s excellent work on Ancient Zimbabwe deserves acknowledgement – particularly his support of the theory that the Lemba tribe could well be a remnant of the old civilisation there.

Thus, it did seem incorrect that (originally) Great Zimbabwe National Monument contained absolutely no reference to Gayre. So, after protracted and often difficult correspondence, I persuaded them to include the following piece in their commentary:

user: David Lauder wrote "You cannot 'transform' yourself into the head of a clan! You either are, or are not, the proven Chief." Of course you can transform yourself into the head of a clan, and more than one man has! All you have to do is make up a clan and declare yourself to be its chief. This is precisely what Gayre did. Two sources backing up this assertion are cited in the article -- one by the Glasgow Herald newspaper (whom surely Gayre would've sued for libel, if their claim was false), and the other by Guy Stair Sainty, an internationally recognized expert on nobility, heraldry, genealogy, etc., who accused Gayre of the invention "Clan Gayre" in his latest reference book, published by Burke's Peerage. Surely Gayre's son would've sued Burke's for libel if Sainty's statements were untrue. He hasn't. The onus is on someone making a claim to demonstrate that it is factual; the burden of proof is on them, not upon those skeptical of the claim. This Gayre has never done. The "evidence" cited for "Clan Gayre" is entirely from Gayre's own hand. Furthermore, Gayre's close friend Terence Francis MacCarthy, who served as Gayre's Vice-President at the International Commission on Orders of Chivalry, did that very thing too: he claimed to be the head of the Irish Clan MacCarthy. Gayre served as "Constable" in MacCarthy's spurious group. It was an international scandal when MacCarthy was proved to be a fraud. So Gayre is utterly unreliable in his claims. Bricology (talk) 17:21, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Another comical attempt to conjure a clan was that of Steven Akins of that Ilk.[1] —Tamfang (talk) 03:45, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

A possible Semitic origin [for the Ancient Zimbabwean Civilisation]

Another tribe which claims responsibility for Great Zimbabwe is the Lemba - a possibility which has been supported in varying degrees by several writers [41][42][43][44][45]. Thus, Gayre suggests that the Shona artefacts which were found in the various ruins, were placed there only after they conquered the country and drove out or absorbed the previous inhabitants [46]; the ones who remained would have passed some of their skills and knowledge to the invaders. To advance their argument, Dr Gayre and Professor Murdock both report that in the early 20th century, neighbouring tribes regarded the South African Lemba as exceptionally skilled metal workers [41][43][47][48][49]; Gayre also mentions that those Lemba had a particular aptitude for mining, smelting and building in stone [46].

Maintaining that those Lemba had originally fled southwards from the Masvingo area, Gayre emphasised that their female ancestry must have contained a large MaKaranga element, judging by the fact that the old Lemba language was a dialect of Karanga [46][47][50].

Recent DNA tests reveal that many Lemba possess marked Semitic features in their Y-chromosomes – i.e., passed through their male ancestral line [51][32]. Particularly startling is the fact that their priests still carry the Cohen Modal Haplotype [52].

Gayre describes the Lemba oral tradition that their male forebears came by boat (from a country to the north which boasted large cities) to obtain gold [46][47][48][50].

Other Lemba Semitic characteristics highlighted by Gayre or Murdock are – first, their dietary laws and customs, which have a lot in common with the Mosaic code [41][43][46][47][48][49][53] – second, the fact that many members of that community have Semitic-sounding names [46][47][50] – and finally, a reputation as the masters and originators of the art of circumcision which the Lemba enjoyed among surrounding tribes [46][48][47][49].

Thus, the discovery of models of male circumcised organs in some of the ancient ruins, is interpreted by Gayre as evidence of a direct link between the Lemba and Ancient Zimbabwe [46]. In addition, Gayre, Layland, Hall and Murdock all regard it as significant that the Lemba buried their dead in an extended rather than a crouched position – i.e., in the same style as in certain Zimbabwean graves, where gold jewellery confirmed their association with the ancient civilization [46][44][43][54].

NOTES AND REFERENCES

41. Gayre, R. - 'The Lembas and Vendas of Vendaland'; The Mankind Quarterly vol. VIII (Edinburgh, 1967), pp. 3-15.

42. Gayre, R. - 'Some further notes on the Lembas'; The Mankind Quarterly vol. XI (1970), pp. 58-60.

43. Murdock, G.P. – 'Africa: its peoples and their culture history'; McGraw Hill, New York, 1959; see pp. 387 and 204 et seq.

44. Hall, R.N. & Neal, W.G. - 'The ancient ruins of Rhodesia'; Methuen, London, 1902; see pp. 95, 101-106, 126.

45. R. Wessman - 'The BaWenda of the Spelonken'; The African World, London, 1908; see pp. 129-132.

46. Gayre, R. - 'The origin of the Zimbabwean civilization'; Galaxie Press, Zimbabwe, 1972.

47. Hammond Tooke, W.D. - 'The Bantu-speaking peoples of southern Africa'; Routledge and Kegan Paul, London, 1974 (originally 1937); see pp. 81-84 and 115-116. [Contribution by N.J. van Warmelo]. Similar material appears in Schapera, I. - 'The Bantu-speaking tribes of southern Africa'; Routledge and Sons, London, 1937, and Maskew Miller, Capetown, 1966, see pp. 65-66, 153, 257, 276.

48. Junod, H.A. - 'The life of a South African tribe', vol. I: - 'Social life'; MacMillan, London, 1927; see pp.72-73, 94.

49. Jaques, A.A. - 'Notes on the Lemba Tribe of the Northern Transvaal'; Anthropos vol. XXVI (1931), pp. 245-251; see pp. 247, 249.

50. van Warmelo, N.J. - 'Zur Sprache und Herkunft der Lemba'; Hamburger Beiträge zur Afrika-Kunde Bd. 5 (1966), pp. 273-283; Deutsches Institut für Afrika-Forschung; see pp. 273, 279, 281-282.

51. Parfitt, T. - 'Journey to the vanished city'; St. Martin's Press, New York, 1992 (also published by Phoenix). Discussed in a long article on p.22 of The Times (UK) on 10th March 1999.

52. Thomas, M.G., Parfitt, T. et al. - 'Y Chromosomes Traveling South: The Cohen Modal Haplotype and the Origins of the Lemba - the "Black Jews of Southern Africa"; Amer. J. Human Genetics vol. 66 (2000), pp. 674-686.

53. van Warmelo, N.J. - 'The copper miners of Musina and the early history of the Zoutpansberg'; Ethnological Publications no. VIII (1940), Dept. of Native Affairs, South Africa; see pp. 52-53, 63-67.

54. Layland, E. – Appendix I of 'The origin of the Zimbabwean civilization'; Galaxie Press, Zimbabwe, 1972; see p.230.

However, a ‘cyber-war’ then broke out whereby my contribution was deleted, then restored by Wikipedia, then deleted again by the same disruptive individual … That happened several times!

So Wikipedia decided to compromise by modifying and toning down my above text, but at least they accepted that Gayre’s work should be mentioned.

Incidentally, some people try and claim that Gayre is not a “reliable resource” of the type required by Wikipedia. I did however manage to make the point that Gayre’s important points are all supported by writers (such as van Warmelo and Junod) who are not trying to prove any theory regarding Ancient Zimbabwe.

http://DLMcN.com/anczimb.html is an attempt to summarise the evidence. DLMcN (talk) 10:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Tudor Parfitt on Gayre's ideas about Great Zimbabwe

Maybe we should quote Parfitt "It is worth noting tnat in relatively recent times white racists found this tradition appealing: the Scottish laird Gayre of Gayre and Nigg was the editor of a racist journal called Mankind Quarterly. In 1967 he wrote a short article in which he stressed the connection of the Lemba with the Great Zimbabwe and in 1972 wrote a book, published in Rhodesia and believed by some to have been commissioned by the Rhodesian Government which claimed that the Lemba had been involved in the Great Zimbabwe construction. He further argued that the Lemba had Jewish cultural and genetic traits and that their 'Armenoid' genes must have been acquired from Judaized Sabeans who, he maintained, had serried in the area thousands of years ago. The book's clear objective was to show that black people had never been capable of of building in stone or of governing themselves. There is nor the slightest evidence that 'Sabeans' or any other Middle Eastern people settled in the area thousands of years ago - and there is every evidence that Great Zimbabwe was built something less than a thousand years ago." Dougweller (talk) 14:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed - would be hard-put to find a modern archaeologist who desribes Gayre’s work on Ancient Zimbabwe as "excellent". Babakathy (talk) 17:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree, but this is mainly because of the evidence that GZ was built less than a thousand years ago. This means - faute de mieux - that it was built by ancestors of the modern Shona speakers, for who else was in the area at that time? This does not mean his other work on possible Sabean settlement is invalid; it is not accurate to say that 'There is nor the slightest evidence that 'Sabeans' or any other Middle Eastern people settled in the area thousands of years ago'. For there is. Gayre's work on the genetic and cultural traits of these people cannot be dismissed so easily. It may be his racial views led him to connect the Sabeans with the GZ story, but that use of the data does not invalidate the data itself (themselves?). I hope the article will make this clear.

Mentioned above is a use of Gayre's research which tries to solve the problem of who built GZ which specificaly disclaims a racial interpetation:

http://www.dlmcn.com/anczimb.html

Note near the end it says ' if Saba did plant a colony in southeast Africa, then it probably contained native southern African as well as Semitic blood by the time it attained maturity.' No comfort for racialists there. I think it would be a useful addition to the article as an example of Gayre's influence; should the link be added? 69.181.249.69 (talk) 04:59, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

>>> Many thanks for your encouraging and supportive remarks ! DLMcN (talk) 08:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

It is incorrect to imply that >Because Gayre was a racialist – it follows that his line of reasoning proposing a Semitic origin for Great Zimbabwe, is untenable.<

That^ italicised piece between the arrows > < is a non sequitur; it is flawed logic. Admittedly, we have perhaps not been putting it quite as bluntly and directly as that – but it is always better to avoid ad hominem remarks and criticisms.

Here, it is relevant to focus once again on the fact that many of the key points made by Gayre are supported by observations recorded – long before he wrote his book – by van Warmelo, Junod, and others: i.e., by scholars who were not discussing the origins of Great Zimbabwe. This provides a much fairer judgment than Garlake’s description of the work as “pure polemic” (this is cited elsewhere).

Certainly, I am not maintaining that Gayre’s thesis has been demonstrated conclusively. He does, however, raise questions which are worth looking at. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DLMcN (talk • contribs) 10:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Signed: DLMcN (talk) 10:52, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

By all means put a section on Gayre's theories and work on GZ in this article, it is quite appropriate. Then you can also mention discussion of his work since then, both in favour and against. Junod et al are not relevant to an article on Gayre as they do not discuss his work - unless Gayre mentions them to support his theories. But in this article the focus must needs be on Gayre. Babakathy (talk) 07:24, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Uh...

The guy was a racist and a self professed Nazi [2], [3], [4], [5], [6] (and many other sources) but you wouldn't know it from this Wikipedia article which fawns and gushes over this scumbag. P. O. V.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:50, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

While Gayre certainly appears to have had a racist mindset, you're pushing it with 'self professed' and 'Nazi'.[7] Nevard (talk) 05:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

My reason for reverting Volunteer Marek's recent edit, was truncated due to insufficient space. Let me therefore finish what I was trying to say: "We should submit this dispute to neutral arbitration ... It is relevant here to focus on Gayre's work, regardless of whether we agree or disagree. His book certainly did have an academic "impact", positive as well as negative. DLMcN (talk) 17:23, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek - 1. In your "Edit Summary" - when you recently deleted a large chunk of text from the Main Page - you wrote "...no modern archaeologists take this seriously". However, this controversy is unlikely to be resolved if we confine ourselves to Archaeology - i.e., it is also relevant to look at other branches of knowledge, namely ideas contributed (for example) by Geneticists, Historians, Anthropologists and Linguists... 2. Some of your remarks are violating the Wikipedia guidelines: "Be polite", and "Avoid personal insults". DLMcN (talk) 18:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

RACISTS OF BOTH SHADES

Surely Gayre's political (so-called) affiliations have no place here? In the same vein, if we are going to use weasel words like, 'believed by some' or 'to have been commissioned by the Rhodesian Govt.' - we can allege others believe not. This kind of pro-black racism is straying from the core of the still unresolved mystery who built the Great Zimbabwe? And - while we are on the subject, who designed and constructed 1.5million acres of marvellously designed terraces with cunning water channels and 6 000 enigmatic stone lined (I believe after years of studying them) - compost pits in the Nyanga Mountains. Someone also created more than 75 000 ancient abandoned mine workings still visible at the turn of the 19th century. I have personally observed one pit (and numerous others) at the now modern Alaska Mine from which it has been estimated that no less than a million tonnes of material was extracted to obtain + 150 000 tonnes of copper ore. This equates to well over 5 000 tonnes of copper metal. It was obviously exported - by whom and when? And while we are on the subject of race those pro-black racists hurling accusations at 'white racists' should be reminded that the essence of this mystery and why it fascinates so, is not whether blacks or whites built it - but who? (IanKlux) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.103.134.70 (talk) 23:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Gayre's political views etc. are relevant to this page, which is an article about him. They are naturally not relevant to the validity of his ideas.

Great Zimbabwe's origins are no mystery - the wealth of research that has been done does show this. One cannot simply say something is a mystery because one does not like the answer the researchers have come up with. The same applies to Nyanga - do read Soper [8] [9] and Summers for a start. Babakathy (talk) 10:00, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

But surely one can use the word "mystery" if there are a number of unanswered, fundamental questions associated with it? --DLMcN (talk) 14:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

No. Mystery has implications that are inappropriate, such as the suggestion that we lack any understanding of something - and there are always unanswered questions to anything historical, more so anything archaeological. Dougweller (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Serious trouble with reference sources

Under "Education and Military service", a number of claims are made. To wit: "Gayre served with the British Expeditionary Force in France in 1939, as a Lieutenant-Colonel in the Royal Artillery afterwards becoming Educational Adviser to the Allied Military Government of Italy, based in Palermo, where he fought for the exclusion of left-wing text-books and communist influence from the Italian education system. He was thereafter Director of Education to the Allied Control Commission for Italy, based in Naples; and Chief of Education and Religious Affairs, German Planning Unit, Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force. After the war he spent a considerable amount of time in India where he was instrumental in the establishment of the Italo-Indian Institute." However, the three supporting reference sources cited happen to be publications written by the subject of the article. This is a circular argument, it violates WP:NPOV, and cannot be relied upon. As WP states: "Self-published media, where the author and publisher are the same, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources." ( Help:Introduction to referencing/4 ) If someone can't provide reliable third-party sources for these claims, they should be removed. Bricology (talk) 07:34, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

My own view is that this material should be regarded as relatively 'harmless' - i.e., it is not particularly controversial - so it seems unnecessary to remove it. Despite having been written by Gayre himself, it seems likely that the evidence cited is enough to say that the facts are mostly correct. And they do throw light on Gayre's career. Nevertheless, there might still be scope for modifying the wording (e.g., adding something like: "According to Gayre's account ...>") - but my personal vote goes against deleting the entire paragraph. --DLMcN (talk) 10:45, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

In Help:Introduction to referencing/4 we read: "... self-published sources can sometimes be used as sources of information about themselves". --DLMcN (talk) 11:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The trouble is that Gayre is notoriously unreliable; I'd say that the evidence shows clearly that he was a con man. It's a fact that he created the entire "Clan Gayre", which is unrecorded in any book on Scottish clans and septs pre-1930s, that he aided Terence MacCarthy in the Niadh Nask scam, and so on. These assertions are all properly referenced in the article. If a man can go to those lengths to deceive the public, I have zero trouble believing that he would likewise be dishonest about his military service and career. Bricology (talk) 17:02, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

True. Virtually every source I can find goes back to him - except one, see [10]. Dougweller (talk) 16:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Good find, Dougweller. I also found this, from the London Gazette, of 4 Aug., 1931: "Regular Army Reserve of Officers: The undermentioned having attained the age limit of liability to recall, cease to belong to the Res. of Off.: Royal Regiment of Artillery: George Robert Gair (late offr. cadet, Edinburgh Univ. Contgt., Sen. Div., O.T.C.)". So that at least documents that he had been in the Royal Regiment of Artillery as an officer cadet, Senior Division, until 1933. My suspicion is that the basic framework of Gayre's military service and career are factual, but that he heavily embroidered his stature in the two fields. That's what I'm trying to pin down. Bricology (talk) 18:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Bricolgy - it sounds as if you are keen to check whether Gayre really did attain the military ranks which he claims. Thus, it might be possible - and interesting? - to contact and ask his son. Certainly, an e-mail or letter from Gayre's son cannot be regarded as a 'reliable source' in the Wikipedia context - but I am inclined to guess that his son would have no reason to deliberately exaggerate and misrepresent the facts... [My father actually met Gayre, many decades ago, and did find it difficult to warm to him]. --DLMcN (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Of Gayre and Nigg

Should we have that as part of his name in the first sentence? Dougweller (talk) 16:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he legally changed his surname to "Gayre of Gayre and Nigg" by deed poll in 1957, soon following the death of his father, William Gillies Gayre (who was likewise born "Gair" -- see http://www.thepeerage.com/p41946.htm#i419452 ). Robert Gayre promoted himself for the next 50 years as "Robert Gayre of Gayre and Nigg", so I suppose that is how we should refer to him in the article. Bricology (talk) 18:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Do others of this surname recognise him and his son as their chief? And how big is the clan? How many Gayre-and-Nigg-ers?

Hm, maybe Gayre wouldn't like that way of putting it. (g) I'm just wondering how legitimate this clan is. 2.28.169.31 (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

As I understand it, the suffix "of Gayre and Nigg" implies that he owns land in those places; only one person bears it at a time. (Is there a place called Gayre?) —Tamfang (talk) 03:50, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Reversions of 26 April (>Searching for a more balanced presentation)

DougWeller - when looking at the material you reverted earlier today, I was a little surprised to read that you gave your reason (in your Edit Summary) as "Unsourced". However, I did wonder what sort of 'sources' we would be expected to find - in order to justify (at least some) of the points made (unsuccessfully) by that other editor. Perhaps we might be able to manage to find a compromise wording? ... Putting it differently, the text as it appears now, does somehow seem unnecessarily 'hostile' to Mankind Quarterly, such that the other editor apparently wanted to try and tone it down, i.e., to offer a slightly more 'balanced' presentation. Of course, I do realize that this might be a bit tricky in Wikipedia - because we are not supposed to be influenced by our own personal assessments. --DLMcN (talk) 12:28, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

It was unsourced - and entirely out of line with the way we describe MQ in its own article. And recall who founded MQ - not a very salubrious group. Dougweller (talk) 20:38, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Lead doesn't meet NPOV

And speaking of balance, the lead is clearly unbalanced. Gayre was a contoversial figure, and all the lead says is " a Scottish anthropologist who founded Mankind Quarterly. An expert on heraldry, he also founded The Armorial, and produced many books on this subject." I'm thinking we may need an NPOV tag on the article if this isn't fixed. Dougweller (talk) 20:38, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Added a phrase from the article to indicate the controversial nature of MQ, which restores some balance. Johncoz (talk) 10:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Ref for that? Babakathy (talk) 15:47, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Clean-up and NPOV

Have tried to clean and balance. Babakathy (talk) 15:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Robert Gayre military career

It would appear from the following entries in the London Gazette that Gair was a supplementary reserve officer in the Royal Artillery and was a RA Lieutenant at the time of Dunkirk ( 4 June 1940). He apparently achieved the honorary rank of Lt Colonel in 1962 on retirement from the Regular Army Reserve of Officers having transferred to the Royal Army Education Corps in the rank of Captain in 1942. Whatever else he might have been, he was NEVER a Lieutenant Colonel in the Royal Artillery as he seems to have claimed.

Interesting that his doctorates (all 3 of them!) are from 3 different Italian universities and all date from 1943 - 1944.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34093/page/6250

ROYAL ARTILLERY. 2nd Lt. G. R. Gair to be Lt. 5th Aug. 1934

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34996/supplement/6666

NOTICE is hereby given that GEORGE ROBERT GAIR of Telham, Battle, in the county of Sussex, Captain in the Royal Artillery, Master of Arts of the University of Edinburgh, a natural born British subject, intends, after the expiration of twenty-one days from the date of publication of this notice, to assume the surname of Gayre (which is the ancient spelling of the name) in lieu and instead of his present surname of Gair.—i2th November, 1940. A. T. BUTLER, Windsor Herald, College of Arms, London, Agent for the said George (034) Robert Gair

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35278/supplement/5404

The undermentioned Lts., from Supp. Res. of Off., to be War Subs. Capt. :_ G. R. Gayre (52406). 5th Aug. 1941.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35473/supplement/999

ARMY EDUCATIONAL CORPS. War Subs. Capt. G. R. Gayre (52406), from R.A., to be War Subs. Capt. 27th Jan. 1942, retaining his present seniority.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/38989/supplement/4090

RARO ROYAL ARMY EDUCATIONAL CORPS. The undermentioned .Capts. (War Subs. Maj.) to be Majs., 1st Jan. 1949: — A. LOGAN (10693). . . G..R. GAYRE, M.A., D.Sc. (52406).

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/42749/supplement/6269

ROYAL ARMY ESDUCATIIONIAL CORPS REGULAR ARMY RESERVE OF OFFICERS Maj. (Hon. Lt.-Col.) R. GAYRE OF GAYRE AND NIGG, M.A., DjS.C. (5i2406) having reached the age limit, relinquishes his commn., 5th Aug. 1962, is granted the hon. rank of (Lt.-Col.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/18438/page/198

UNIVERSITY SECRETARIAL SERVICES AND RESEARCH PUBLISHERS LIMITED 102 Great Russell Street, Bloomsbury, London W.C.I. NOTICE is hereby given pursuant to Section 293 of the Companies Act, 1948, that a Meeting of the Creditors of the above Company will be held within 25 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh, at Noon on Thursday, 31st March 1966 for the purposes specified under Section 293 to 295 of the said Act. Dated this Fourteenth day of March Nineteen Hundred and Sixty-six. R. GAYRE of GAYRE & NIGG, Ygr.3 Secretary. 102 Great Russell Street, Bloomsbury, London W.C.I.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/18443/page/262

UNIVERSITY SECRETARIAL SERVICES AND RESEARCH PUBLISHERS LIMITED Creditors' Voluntary Winding Up AT an Extraordinary General Meeting of the above named Company, held on 31st March 1966, the following Extra ordinary Resolution was duly passed: " That it has been approved to the satisfaction of this Meeting that the Company cannot by reason of its Liabilities continue its business, and that it is desirable that it be wound up voluntarily, and that the same be done accordingly." R> GAYREj OF GAYRE & NrGGj YQR^ ^^ Dated 31st March 1966. The Companies Act 1948 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.53.56 (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Parentage and Ancestry

Being curious about this man’s ancestry I looked at his pedigree as printed in Burke’s Landed Gentry of Great Britain: the Kingdom in Scotland (19th edition, 2001, pages 489-491) which is presumably based on information that he gave in the past or was recorded with the Chief Herald of Ireland at the time of the Confirmation of Arms to his father in 1948.

From the registration of his birth and the marriage of his parents in Ireland there is no doubt that George ‘Robert’ Gair was born at 14 Westland Villas, Dublin South, Ireland, on 6 August 1907, the son of Robert William Gair, confectioner, by his wife Clara formerly Hart. His parents were married by licence at the Methodist Church, Clonliffe, Dublin, on 29 July 1906, when Robert W. Gair described himself, as of full age, bachelor, confectioner, of 50 Shelbourne Road, Dublin, the son of "Robert W. Gair, Deceased". In the 1911 census he appears at Sandymount Green, Pembroke East, Dublin, as ‘George Gair’, aged 3, born Co Dublin, with his parents (who had been married 5 years) and his younger brother Alexander.

The father, Robert William Gair, was in 1901 a boarder at Cornmarket, St Anne’s Ward, Belfast, described as aged 25, pastry baker, unmarried, born Scotland. In 1911 he was described as aged 33, confectioner, aged 33, born Scotland. In the ‘1939 Register’ he was at 30 Blue Bell Lane, The Avenue, Huyton, Lancashire, and said that he was born 9 [sic] December 1875, and was a retired confectioner. His wife Clara Gair died at St Helens, Lancashire, in 13 March 1930, and he died at Portelet, Melton Road, Sprotborough, near Doncaster, also on 13 March but in 1957.

Robert William Gair is said on the pedigree in Burke’s Landed Gentry to have been born ‘abroad’ on 11 [sic] December 1875 to William Gillies Gair (not to Robert W. Gair as on the marriage entry) and his wife Mary O’Connor, who are said to have married ‘abroad’ in 1874. Those two entries have not been found.

However, William Gillies Gair, who was born at Greenock, Scotland, 26 September 1842, the only son of Alexander Gair (1810-1884), and according to the pedigree in Burke, had the Gair or Gaire of Nigg descent, seems in truth not to have married and he did not die until after 28 July 1906). According to newspaper accounts of an action that he brought in 1878 (he accused a local painter of publishing a defamatory libel of him in the form of a painting of him as a red-faced drunkard), he was from about 1867 to 1874 a student at the Royal Academy in London. He said that he had trained as a portrait painter and then worked in London, Bath and elsewhere, and was now living in Merthyr Tydfil [South Wales Daily News, 21 January 1878, page 4; Merthyr Telegraph, 25 January 1878, pages 2-3; Cardiff Times, 26 January 1878]. In the 1881 census he was at 4 Albert Street, Merthyr Tydfil, describing himself as aged 32 and unmarried and in the 1891 census he was at the Alexandra Hotel, 124 Queen Street, Cardiff, describing himself as aged 48 and single. In the 1901 census he was at 16 Shepherds Bush Green, South Hammersmith , describing himself as aged 52 and single. According to the Greenock Telegraph for 20 October 1906 he died at Montborough Square (seemingly a mistake for Montpelier Square), London, 27 September 1906, but the death notice, which mentions his father, does not say anything about his marriage. His death was registered in Chelsea district, as William Gillies Gare [sic], aged 64.

It is possible that after leaving the Royal Academy, William Gillies Gair went quickly abroad, married and had a child overseas, but then deserted his wife and child and returned quickly to England, claiming not to have married, but it is more than curious that his son did not know his correct name and that the places of these events, so important for the claimed descent and pedigree, are not shown in Burke. AnthonyCamp (talk) 17:20, 30 January 2017 (UTC). I have since noted that his portrait of Henry Richard, M.P. for Merthyr, now in Cyfarthfa Castle Museum, was painted in 1875, the year of his supposed son's birth 'abroad'. AnthonyCamp (talk). Further amended AnthonyCamp (talk) 09:59, 2 February 2017 (UTC).

arms

thepeerage.com (cited above) says that his father "matriculated his arms at the Lyons Office in 1948." Perhaps this, like other information about father and son at that site, comes solely from the faker; but if real, it would be appropriate to have the arms at least blazoned here. How does one go about checking? —Tamfang (talk) 03:55, 1 May 2023 (UTC)