Talk:Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell/Archive 3

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Scouting and militarism

Suggest that some of the following be incorporated into the article. --Jagz (talk) 16:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Already before the start of Scouting, Baden-Powell was accused of having a military goal, even for covertly training cadets, but he was always strongly opposed to this.

• The base of Scouting, the book "Scouting for boys ", was not a rewrite of the popular "Aids to Scouting", a small instruction book Baden-Powell wrote about military Scouting. Baden-Powell transferred only the techniques to non-military heroes: backwoodsman, explorers, sailors and airmen. "Scouting for Boys" has no military content.
• Some refer to a military hierarchy, but in contrary Scouting has an anti-authoritarian streak. The Patrol leader is a leader, but is in many scouting organisations, elected by members of the patrol. About the Scoutmaster Baden-Powell "stipulated that the position of Scoutmaster was to be neither that of a schoolmaster nor of a commander Officer, but rather that of an elder brother among his boys, not detached or above them individually".. These are no military hierarchy.
• Baden-Powell did support to learn shooting with a rifle, which even resulted in a few pages of instruction in "Scouting for Boys". This had however no military aim, but would be useful if boys really became frontiersmen by settling in the colonies, which Baden-Powell advertised.
• The uniform was and still is the strongest suggestion of a military Scouting. Baden-Powell gave three reasons for the uniform: the boys like it, it gives a group feeling and it covers differences in wealth. The first reason he explains as giving the boys a direct connection to their heroes, so as part of the theatrical side of the Scouting game. However in reality those heroes did not wear uniforms and Baden-Powell must have realised that a (hidden) part of the attractions for boys was the military suggestion.

The absence of real military aspects does not mean that Baden-Powell was anti-military. His efforts for peace became stronger in time, making him anti-war, but he disapproved anti-militarism. He even did not see any harm in training in a military way. One reason for not using the military parts can been seen from his reaction on the Boys Brigade. It was the intention of Baden-Powell to make an attractive boys game and he just thought that the military was not attractive enough. The second reason was that some parents would object military training, which would limit the reach of Scouting. There was probably another reason. The centre of his Scout method was individuality (opposite to the group), making own decisions (opposite to following the herd or commander), doing good turns, self-learning (opposite to instruction by drill) and a game based on theatre and "make believe". These would never fit in a military scheme. Baden-Powell did use some parts of his profession which he found useful, like the uniform and some names, but these are always externals, never the essential fighting core of military nor specific military techniques.

Sexuality

Coments in this article to not match tone of referenced article. To state "have found a great deal of evidence" when at best the evidence is circumstantial and at that not a very large body. Seems a POV without fact to back it up. While I do not fully agree, the language in the "Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation" seems more balanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.226.58.102 (talk) 16:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation is not a stable article. My experience is that if you make any change to it, a flurry of changes will follow. An attempt was made for about a year to keep the section here synchronized with the main article, this was abandoned. See Talk:Robert_Baden-Powell,_1st_Baron_Baden-Powell/ArchiveToJuly2007#Sexuality__.2F__Summary_Style for details. On further examination, the section here seems to have been changed at some recent point ; we need to look at this some more. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The text I was referring from the other article was "Robert Baden-Powell's sexual orientation has been brought into question by some modern authors. Even though he married and had three children, circumstantial evidence suggests he may have taken an erotic interest in men." Actually I was surprised by the more neutral tone of the referenced article. Suggest that similar language to there be used instead. I see nothing in the footnotes to suggest "great deal" or that these authors were the "principal" biographers as the language in this article currently suggests.

I think the foot note on the other article might also help balance this section "This conclusion may or may not withstand scrutiny, but the discussion emphasizes an important undercurrent to Baden-Powell's life. He intensely identified with and enjoyed all-male culture and the activities that accompanied it. Whether this interest was simply an extension of a Victorian sensibility toward male friendship or a latent indication of homosexuality, we may never know."[11]

I wrote the text in question for this article and it was propagated to the other, then it disappeared from here. I'm still looking at the article history to see the reasoning for the changes. --— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fascism, B-P's views on

In the Personal life section, I find the content dealing with B-P's views to raise more questions than it answers. For example, the quotation from his diary says that after reading Mein Kampf, B-P wrote of the "...ideals which Hitler does not practice himself." How can that be construed as "sympathy", as the next sentence in the article states? To me, that sounds like B-P rightly saw thru Hitler as a hypocrite and liar. In fact, the Nazis banned Scouting in Germany in the 1930s, so it is hardly likely that B-P would have any sympathy towards Hitler or Nazism. As to B-P's supposed sympathies towards Mussolini, when was that? In the 1920s, or later in the the 1930s, when Mussolini aligned himself with Hitler and embarked on an expansionist foreign policy? Historical context here is essential for a correct interpretation of B-P's views. Unfortunately, only one source is cited — to a dead Australian link — so the reader is left floundering.

Did Rosenthal really say "Baden-Powell used the swastika because he was a Nazi sympathizer"? Where's the cite? When did B-P "use" swastikas? In his paintings? At Brownsea Island in 1907 or in September 1939 when England was at war with Germany? Obviously, the context is extremely important to a correct understanding and the article fails to provide that. Prior to the rise of Nazism, when the swastika was expropriated by the Third Reich for its own evil ends, the swastika was not a political symbol at all and was widely used in various cultures (with the "arms" facing left). Indeed, note the teepee image at the 1937 National Jamboree in Washington DC here. The Nazis adapted the swastika with the arms facing right — which version did B-P use, the ancient Indian version or the Nazi version of the 1930s? Obviously, this is significant if Rosenthal is to be given any credence.

As it is, I don't think this paragraph really belongs in the article. JGHowes ^talk - 13:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

We'd need a copy of the book, online, or whatever to figure that out. You ask valid questions. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

As I recall, someone shoehorned this content into the article to illustrate that B-P was a Nazi sympathizer. It got reworked several times and it looks like it got chopped to the point where it is not very coherent. As noted in swastika, the direction of the swastika has no real meaning, as several cultures seem to have independently created the symbol. See Western use of the Swastika in the early 20th century for some use in Scouting, and here are two links.[1] [2] My personal opinion: B-P was probably ticked off by the Nazi use of the symbol and tried to hang on to it past the point where others had abandoned it. If you have ever read Mein Kampf (which is a struggle in itself), you will find that Hitler espoused several quite democratic views that he never implemented. I have the later edition of Jeal, so I will check this out in a bit. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 14:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a copy of "The Character Factory" by Rosenthal. It is interesting that swastika, Hitler and Fascism do not appear in the index. Mussolini does. It talks of BP's enthusiasm for the Ballila (the fascist youth organisation in Italy) in 1933 and his later backing off from this view in 1940. There are several references to the British Scout Archives for this section. The book also says that he was eager for the Scouts to establish official relations with the Hitler Jugend as late as 1937, in spite of the advice of the International Bureau (IB). The IB in 1935 had said that the Scouts "have nothing in common with Hitler Jugend and that any contact between Scouts and Hitler Jugend is undesirable". Rosenthal says this never ceased to trouble BP. All this is on pages 272 - 278. It is clear that we should recognise that BP was not as opposed to Hitler and Fascism as we might now like looking back with hindsight. We should however also recognise that his views were typical of his class. The people surrounding Chamberlain in the Tory Party, and others from the upper classes, had quite obnoxious views about Fascism. Nevertheless, it should also be noted that many of these people fought bravely against Hitler once the war started or were otherwise involved in war work. The number of people like Oswald Mosely were quite small. --Bduke (talk) 23:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeal notes that many of Rosenthal's views were based on Packenham's portrayal of B-P in The Boer War (1979) where B-P is shown as racist in his treatment of the natives during the Siege of Mafeking, but is in a completely different light in Packenham's later The Siege of Mafeking (2001).

On Jeal: Chapter 17.3 "Baden-Powell and the Dictators". Jeal specifically notes Rosenthal's view of B-P on Mussolini and puts it into better context, noting that Churchill and others initially approved of Mussolini and his anti-communist stance. The Ballila absorbed the Italian Scouts— but we must remember that they were started by Sir Francis Vane after he split with B-P, and they were never recognized by the International Bureau. Jeal notes that B-P initially approved of the Ballila, but later denounced then as "cadets, pure and simple". Jeal directly repudiates Rosenthals depiction of B-P and Hitler. Again, there were no recognized Scout groups in Germany, and the nascent groups quickly merged with the Hitler Jugend. Again, B-P had some initial praise, but by 1937 was highly critical. B-P and other Scout leaders, including J. S. Wilson, advocated a relationship with the Hitler Jugend, inviting them to camps in England to expose them to the true Scouting movement; others were opposed. After Kristallnacht, all ties were dropped. As to the diary entry: Jeal noted this entry from October 1939, and also notes an entry from March 1939 when B-P opines that Hitler was a megalomaniac. Jeal states that B-P used the swastika, and became rather obstinate about it until late 1935 when he dropped it. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 02:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Excellent sourcing, Ed. Will you be rewriting the paragraph in question? JGHowes ^talk - 02:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not recall "According to his biographer Rosenthal, Baden-Powell used the swastika because he was a Nazi sympathizer." and I will try to look for it. If it stays it should be referenced to the page of the book where it is said, if it is. B-P's interaction with Mussolini is I think more complex. Rosenthal reports B-P in 1941 as directly contradicting what he said about Mussolini in 1933 and I think these are referenced. It is not so much about the anti-communism stance but about B-P's views on the Ballila - really positive in 1933, but negative in 1941. I'll have another look later but I'm busy testing code at present and just taking a break. --Bduke (talk) 03:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I refactored the first part of my previous comment, as it was Pakenham who changed his views. It has been quite a while since I read Rosenthal but Jeal does a much better job of putting events into context. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 18:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me clarify a few things about Italy, scouting in Italy, Mussolini and B.-P.

The first scout association in Italy (REI) was started in 1910 by Sir Francis Vane, it's true, and so it wasn't recognized. But in 1912 another organization (CNGEI) started which eventually was recognised, and in 1916 another one, recognised too (ASCI). The founder of ASCI, count Mario of Carpegna, was also a member of the International Committee. Vane's unrecognised scout association disappeared around 1913-1914. So it is wrong to say that Italian scouts "were never recognized by the International Bureau". B.-P. himself met a few times with Italian troops, including one from REI. ASCI had the swastika as one of its badges, even at a time when fascism was in power, the Balilla (not "ballila") had already been started, and whenever a scout troop met in the street with a group balilla a fight was certain to happen. So, scouting in Italy was using a swastika without being a fascist sympathizer. The same can be said for B.-P.

In 1926-1927 scouting in Italy was disbanded. This doesn't mean the Balilla absorbed the scouts. While all youth were forced to join the various fascist youth organizations (GIL, Balilla, Figli della Lupa, Avanguardisti), almost all the scout leadership stood away from these. So, please, don't say that the Balilla absorbed the scouts. This is very offensive, especially since many scouts eventually joined the Resistance.

Last but not least, I think the best source on B.-P.'s meeting with Mussolini, from which came his initially positive perception of the Balilla is Mario Sica's "Storia dello Scautismo in Italia".

--Lou Crazy (talk) 22:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Scouting and Hitler Youth

The Hitler Youth really tried to get in contact with the International Bureau and with the Boy Scouts. Informations about this fact you can find in the Nuremberg Trials. Baldur von Schirach talks about that the Boy Scouts do similar (knifes p.445, shooting p.522)[3]. That is all on the 138th day, Monday 27th of May 1946, Morning Session. He also said, that he joined the Jungdeutschland, a Scout Association lead by Glotz at the age of ten. p.364 Vol 14. On p.365 he mentioned Baden-Powell and the Boy Scouts as one origin for his later work. In the afternoon of the 138th day (p.547) Lauterbacher (HJ-Leader) said:"It can thruthfully be said that the that the Hitler Youth sought contacts with all the countries of Europe; and I myself, at the direct order of Von Schirach, visited England several times. There I met the leader of the British Boy Scouts and his colleague , but also..."

More information can be found in puls 16-Dokumentationsschrift der Jugendbewegung: Eberhard Plewe (EBBO) 1905-1986-Die Suche nach Einigkeit und Einheit written by Jürgen W.Diener (UMBA), ISSN 0342-3328,1988, p.15-27 There is a meeting between Baldur von Schirach and Baden-Powell mentoined in the German embassy in London. It took place on the 19th of November 1937. The talked about cooperation between the IB, a small limited and legal German Scout association and the HJ. Baden-Powell didn´t know that you would meet Von Schirach, because he was invited by Von Ribbentrop and afterwards he was totally unimpressed about the ideas of Von Schirach about a cooperation between Hitler Youth and Scouting. p.26.

Werner Helwig wrote in his History of the German Youth movement (Die blaue Blume des Wandervogels) in the chapter Scouting (p.224 1998 edition), that the Hitler Youth in 1944/45 had plans that the HJ and other Fascist youth movements in the occupied countries should be register by the IB after the "Endsieg".

I also found this: 4th August 1933, Meeting between Hitler Youth from Köln and British Boy Scouts on their way to Hungary [4]

But Baldur Schirach banned German Scouting. The most associations were banned in 1933. Austrian Scouting was banned in 1938 after the Anschluss and Scout leaders were send to Concentration camps. Before illegal Hitler Youth and Scouts were real enimies. The Scouts were pro-Austria and Jews were their brother Scouts.

You can say the Hitler Youth planned to use Scouting like the Nazis used the Olympic Games. -Phips (talk) 22:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Lord Baden-Powell

When discussing with my own troop, and in many articles elsewhere on the Internet, B-P is referred to as Lord Baden-Powell. However, no where in this article does it call him as a lord. I am not certain why we refer to him as a lord, I think something to do with being a baron, but I think that this should be mentioned somewhere in the article. Prymal (talk) 00:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

He went from being plain Mr Baden-Powell, to Sir Robert Baden-Powell in 1921, then Baron Baden-Powell in 1929. Peers (whether they’re barons, viscounts, marquesses or earls – but not dukes) are referred to informally as “Lord X”. However, in encyclopedia articles most sentences refer to the subject by surname alone. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Read all about titling in the first archive as well as all the others. Wim van Dorst (talk) 23:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC).

He was knighted (Sir) in 1909 (Royal Victorian Order and Commander Order of the Bath) and became a Baron (Lord) in 1921.

Khoomei (talk) 22:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Knight, 1909, correct; Baron, 1921, incorrect. He became a Baronet in 1921 and a Baron in 1929. They are different. A Baronet is referred to as "Sir ..", but of course he was already referred to by that title from the earlier knighthood. --Bduke (talk) 23:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting

• (1) In-house only

• (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
• (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
• (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.

• (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences

• (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.

• (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates

• (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
• (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
• (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.

• (4) Typos and misunderstood coding

• (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
• (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
• (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.

• (5) Edit-mode clutter

• (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.

• (6) Limited application

• (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
• (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis/ The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 08:58, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Award Addition

i am wikipedia challenged so can someone add this to his awards Honorary Firecrafter XXX please and thanks you XXX is our sign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.220.54.29 (talk) 20:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)