Talk:Rise Up Australia Party

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I've met a few of the people running this party. It's just a brain-dead neo-nazi party trying to promote fear about people with different skin colours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:112B:1800:6C72:AE58:876D:B180 (talk) 05:38, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Doctrine?

"such as opposing the spread of Islamic doctrine in Australia "

Doctrine? Technical details of a religion? Surely their concern is islamic culture and practice? Perhaps this sentence could be better phrased "such as opposing the spread of Islam in Australia". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.47.132.150 (talk) 05:18, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Local government

Orthogonal1 has added a count of 1/611 seats in local government. The HTML comment suggests this might relate to Victoria, but is not cited or explained in the text (or even clearly in the infobox). Do you (or anyone else) have an explanation and source, or should this be removed from the infobox? --Scott Davis ^Talk 10:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

ScottDavis, I collected the councillor numbers from the VEC website and then added them up. I put them into the article Local government areas of Victoria so that they're all on the one page. Orthogonal1 (talk) 02:46, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Orthogonal1, I have a few issues with this. I'm assuming the one RUAP councillor you're referring to is Rosalie Crestani, but there's no way anyone could know that from the article. And I'm really not sure these local council bars are good ideas for anywhere in Australia, except maybe NSW where party affiliations are recognised at council elections. Otherwise they're essentially meaningless. Casey Council does not recognise her as a RUAP councillor and anyway most parties don't run coordinated campaigns for Victorian elections. I would support removing this parameter from the infobox. Crestani should, however, probably be mentioned somewhere in the article since she has been fairly prominent as a RUAP spokesperson. Frickeg (talk) 07:57, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

City of Casey#Elected Council reports the party affiliations of all the councillors. The paragraph is cited, but I cannot see the party names in the reference. Crestani's Senate candidate page says she is a councillor, but does not claim to be a RUAP representative in that role, and the councillors page on the City website does not list her party. On the evidence I have (not) found, I support removing local government (Victoria) from the infobox and removing parties from more local government councils if the party names were not on the ballot papers or how-to-vote/advertising material. I encourage a more detailed description of the situation in the text if Crestani speaks for RUAP and is identified as a Casey Councillor as she does so. --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:07, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

ScottDavis, I don't think I understand what you are trying to say. If the objection is that parties are not formally recognised in local government, see my comment about the Nebraska Senate below. As for the idea that we should only include party information if it is included on advertising material: At least in Melbourne, political parties do exert influence on councillors, and sponsor their campaigns. The choice not to mention party affiliation on advertising materials in some areas is strategic. Orthogonal1 (talk) 01:20, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Frickeg, yes, I'm referring to Crestani, and that could have been clearer. I'll add that information to the article. As for the local council bars, I think that they are good to have. The fact that parties aren't officially recognised by council and don't appear on the ballot paper doesn't mean that parties don't influence councillors' decisions. For example, the "non-partisan" Nebraska State Senate still lists party affiliations of Senators. Orthogonal1 (talk) 01:20, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Orthogonal1, my points are

1. The City of Casey article has issues with verifiability, but that is not for this talk page,
2. the aggregated representation in local government in Victoria bar in the infobox is not helpful and I would prefer it be removed
3. Crestani should be mentioned in this article (cited appropriately for BLP) including the RUAP relationship to City of Casey.

The Nebraska reference is a red herring as the individual people's articles identify their political affiliations, which is not the case for councillors in Australia where the only source of this information is the WP:PRIMARY source of their declarations to the Council, which should not be used under WP:BLPPRIMARY. --Scott Davis ^Talk 01:42, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Scott (after wavering on this for a while since it came up in South Australia). Mention her in the text, but the attempt at aggregation is unhelpful. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:48, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

ScottDavis, thanks for clarifying. Most of the information on councillors that I have found in researching councillors' political affiliations was from secondary sources, such as newspapers. In fact, councillors don't have to tell anyone (including the council itself) their political affiliations, so there isn't even a primary source such as that to go to.

As for the aggregated representation, it is a measure of popularity/influence, just as it is with the higher levels of government. The Labour Party (UK) and most British political parties have aggregated local government seats in their articles, and while their political situation is different to ours, the information is still useful. Orthogonal1 (talk) 02:28, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

The councillor affiliations need references, as now noted in the city article. I'm open to being swayed about the aggregated representation bar in this article, if it is to be included in all of the relevant party articles, with a summary in Local government in Victoria that explains that it is aggregated over the 79 separate councils. --Scott Davis ^Talk 02:57, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I've already added it to other articles (Socialist Alliance (Australia), Socialist Party (Australia), Australian Greens Victoria - maybe should put on federal article as well?), so I'm definitely not trying to single RUAP out. I'd really like to get information on Liberal/Labor numbers, but this seems like it would be impossible with councillors being so secretive about which party they're from... Orthogonal1 (talk) 03:20, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Please don't add the infobox bars to any more - there is obviously disagreement about this, and frankly I would strongly oppose them anywhere other than New South Wales, and I would oppose them there too (just less strongly!). The other examples you've cited are simply not comparable - in the UK the major parties run endorsed candidates in every council, for example. Australian councils simply don't operate like that - most, especially rural, are non-partisan even when individual councillors may be party members. As far as I'm aware the National Party doesn't endorse candidates for any council elections, but many many rural councillors are National Party members. So trying to divide councillors by party is not helpful above the individual council level. Crestani is a RUAP member, but it's more difficult to say that she is a RUAP councillor - compare, for example, Joanna Gash, who is definitely a Liberal Party member but is an independent councillor. This is not to mention that the bars give a misleading impression anyway - if you were to do one for, say, Labor, it would come out at probably less than a quarter of them, because the total number is so dominated by the non-partisan councils. I support recognising parties in individual councils where this is verifiable, but I really am quite strongly opposed to these summary bars for local government in Australia. Frickeg (talk) 10:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)