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Sources

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Extended content

--Another Believer (Talk) 05:36, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review

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I have submitted a request for a copy edit by a member of the Guild of Copy Editors. Following that review, I intend to nominate the article for Good status. I hope that my work is a quality summary of how the company has been described in the media, and is not deemed promotional in nature. I have no COI to disclose, apart from the fact that I have been to this coffeehouse. I simply was curious about its history and the reported haunting, so I thought I would share my research on Wikipedia. Thanks! --Another Believer (Talk) 22:38, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is it worth mentioning that Ari Shapiro worked at the coffeehouse?

--Another Believer (Talk) 22:54, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, with a link and a one-sentence explanation of who he is. Finetooth (talk) 23:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You might also mention what's scary about the bathroom, if you can find an RS for that. I haven't been to Rimsky for a while, so maybe the scary thing in the bathroom is no longer there. Finetooth (talk) 23:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Finetooth: Thanks for the feedback. I'll see if I can find a detail to include for the bathroom, as most sources keep it a surprise and just stress the scare factor. Is there a particular location you would recommend adding the Shapiro sentence(s)? His employment is not specifically related to the subject's description or reception. --Another Believer (Talk) 23:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Spoiling the surprise does raise an ethical question. On the other hand, the fact that the bathroom is unisex with an under-the-sea atmosphere doesn't seem to lead to the idea that it is scary. Our readers might wonder what's so scary about those things? On the matter of Shapiro, I think it would fit right before the sentence that starts "In her travelogues of Portland, Rachel Dresbeck..." in the "Reception" section. The sentence before this one mentions that the establishment is old, and this paragraph mentions "sassy waiters". Also, I don't think you need to wait for another copyedit but could proceed straight to GAN once you are satisfied that the article meets the other criteria. Finetooth (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Great. I added the Shapiro sentence per your suggestion, and I also found two WW readers poll sources in the process. (I was hoping to find a connection between Pink Martini/T. Lauderdale and the coffeehouse, without luck.) --Another Believer (Talk) 00:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As often happens, I change my mind while writing and move things around a lot. The Shapiro sentence seems out of place in the place I suggested and might work better as the very last sentence of the same paragraph. What do you think? Worse yet, I thought it best to do some more fact-checking vis-a-vis the claim that Bryant lived at some point in the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House. Michael Monk, who wrote The Oregon Encyclopedia piece I cited has a longer article, "Oregon Voices: The Romance of John Reed and Louise Bryant: New Documents Clarify How They Met", in the Fall 2008 issue (Vol. 109, No. 3) of the Oregon Historical Quarterly. You can get at the full document via the JSTOR wing of the online research compartment of the Multnomah County Library. In this article, Monk mentions the two Portland addresses for Bryant that he mentions in the Encyclopedia. The two certain addresses for her in Portland are her pre-marriage studio apartment at 1033 Southwest Yamhill Street and then her home with her first husband, Paul Trulliger, on Southwest Riverwood Road. There's no indication in the longer article that she ever lived at the address now known as the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House. However, Monk says that one Bryant-Reed biographer, citing an "informant", says that the couple was "formally introduced" in 1914 at "the home of Eva and Norma Graves (now the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House at 707 SE 12th Avenue)". This is one several conflicting accounts of where and how Bryant and Reed met, so there may or may not be any connection between the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House and Bryant. Other writers cited by Monk say the couple met elsewhere. Even though you have an RS (The Oregonian) for the Bryant-Korsakoffee claim, The Oregonian (Oregon Live) writer who made it used the weasel word, "supposedly" but failed to explain who supposed it or why we should believe it. I'd be very careful about making the Bryant claim, which looks shaky at best. Finetooth (talk) 03:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, many thanks for taking time to assist with a bit of research. What a fun trail to follow. I would advocate that we should not make a conclusion either way. What if we incorporate all of the information? I changed the text to the following: "In 2006, The Oregonian's Vivian McInerny wrote that the home, built in 1902,[7] is a supposed former residence of writer Louise Bryant.[1] Bryant and her second husband, John Reed, documented parts of the Russian Revolution in works such as her Six Months in Red Russia.[8] Contrastingly, Michael Munk's research for Oregon Historical Quarterly and The Oregon Encyclopedia confirmed two of Bryant's former addresses, neither of which matched the address for Rimsky-Korsakoffee House. According to Munk, one Bryant-Reed biographer claimed an "informant" was "formally introduced" in 1914 at "the home of Eva and Norma Graves (now the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House at 707 SE 12th Avenue)".[9]
Thoughts? I want to make sure that the wording does not suggest original research on our part and reflects Munk's own writing. --Another Believer (Talk) 04:36, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and I moved the Shapiro bit to the end of the paragraph. I do not think I will love the sentence at any location, but I think this might be the most appropriate given the sassy wait staff comment (apologies, Ari, if the order is not ideal!) . --Another Believer (Talk) 04:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In the cold light of morning, the whole Bryant business seems too much of a stretch here. You may want to read Monk's full-length article to see for yourself, but I think the existing Wikipedia article puts way too much emphasis on Bryant. The evidence of any connection with the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House appears to be slim (McInerny's "supposedly"), though my research efforts have not been what you would call "deep". There may be other evidence. What I would recommend, unless you find other evidence in support of McInerny's claim, is to remove all mention of Bryant from the lead, remove her image from the article, and mention only in passing that although an Oregon Live article suggests that she once lived in this house, evidence analyzed by Michael Monk in "Oregon Voices: The Romance of John Reed and Louise Bryant: New Documents Clarify How They Met" suggests that this was not the case. If you don't want to let go of Bryant, you might try tracking down info about Eva and Norma Graves or some of the other people mentioned in Monk's essay. My hunch, and it's only a hunch, is that Bryant might have known Eva and Norma Graves socially and might have set foot in their house on one or more occasions. Sorry to throw this tub of cold water your way so early in the day. Finetooth (talk) 18:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No problem! I am not attached to any of the Bryant content in particular, but I do think it is worth including the possibility that she once lived in the house. I will remove the image of Bryant for now and see if I can work on the text later. --Another Believer (Talk) 18:33, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think of the current wording? I removed the image and her name from the lead. --Another Believer (Talk) 18:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Better. Meanwhile, I found another, more easily accessible article by Michael Monk, here, that says in part: "As we have already seen, Jack and Louise’s first meeting is subject of differing recollections and, especially after the impact of Reds, substantial mythology. Mary Dearborn uncritically insists they met in 1914, relying on Ms. Brownell Frasier’s account that they were formally introduced at the home of the Eva and Norma Graves, which still stands at 707 SE 12th Avenue. In fact, Bryant’s first biographer Virginia Gardner, just as mistakenly, quotes Miss Frasier as saying, "It was at Clara Wold’s house that Miss Frasier poured tea when Louise met John Reed." And so on. Reading this, you can see why I feel pretty certain that Bryant did not ever live in the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House. If she had, Monk and other historians would have been all over it. Finetooth (talk) 19:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Further on in this article, Monk names what appears to be (as nearly as anyone can work it out) all the places that Bryant lived in Portland. She moved to Portland from the University of Oregon in 1910 to an apartment on Southwest Yamhill (sharing a friend's apartment there before getting her own). After marrying Paul Trulliger later in 1910, she may have lived on his houseboat on the Willamette River, but she also continued to rent her studio on S.W. Yamhill. By 1914, the Trulligers were living in half of Paul Trulliger's uncle's house at 2226 NE 53rd Avenue before they moved to a new house in Dunthorpe in 1915. Finetooth (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Finetooth: Thanks again for your thorough research. Do you think the text needs to be changed further, for any reason, or that the above marxists.org source should be incorporated into the article? --Another Believer (Talk) 17:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I might suggest altering these sentences:

However, evidence analyzed by Michael Munk's research for Oregon Historical Quarterly and The Oregon Encyclopedia suggests that this was not the case. According to Munk, one Bryant-Reed biographer claimed an "informant" told her that the couple had been "formally introduced" to one another in 1914 at "the home of Eva and Norma Graves (now the Rimsky-Korsakoffee House at 707 SE 12th Avenue)".

Would this do?

However, evidence analyzed by Michael Munk for publication in Oregon Historical Quarterly and elsewhere lends no support to the idea that Bryant ever lived at 707 SE 12th Avenue and casts strong doubt on the idea that she met Reed there.

I think the Marxist site qualifies as reliable, but other editors might disagree. Here is the "About" page for the site, called the Marxists Internet Archive. I'd be inclined to add a citation to the Reed article in this archive because it is more thorough than the similar article in The Oregon Encyclopedia. I'd cite them both. Finetooth (talk) 18:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. This article just might be GAN-ready. --Another Believer (Talk) 18:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is ready. By the way, Munk is a retired political scientist, author of The Portland Red Guide, and otherwise interesting. See here. Finetooth (talk) 19:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I have submitted this article for a Good article review (category = agriculture, food and drink). Still hoping for a copy edit review as well. Thank you for any assistance. --Another Believer (Talk) 19:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tweaked a few citations (place of publication, title case) just now. Glad to help. Best of luck with the GAN. Finetooth (talk) 19:29, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again. --Another Believer (Talk) 19:45, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Rimsky-Korsakoffee House/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Seabuckthorn (talk · contribs) 02:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator: Another Believer (Talk)

Hi! I'll be reviewing this article for GA status, and should have my full review up shortly. --Seabuckthorn ♥ 02:56, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]


1: Well-written

Check for WP:LEAD:

  1. Check for Correct Structure of Lead Section:  Done
  2. Check for Citations (WP:LEADCITE):  Done
  3. Check for Introductory text:  Done
    • Check for Provide an accessible overview (MOS:INTRO):  Done
      • Major Point 1: Description "Rimsky-Korsakoffee House is a classical music-themed ... some of them are "haunted" (animated), at times elevating, rotating or vibrating." (summarised well in the lead)
      • Major Point 2: Reception "The coffeehouse has received a generally positive reception and is known mostly for its desserts and for offering a unique experience to guests." (not a concise summary of the Reception section)
    • Check for Relative emphasis:  Done
      • Major Point 1: Description "Rimsky-Korsakoffee House is a classical music-themed ... some of them are "haunted" (animated), at times elevating, rotating or vibrating." (the lead gives due weight as is given in the body)
      • Major Point 2: Reception "The coffeehouse has received a generally positive reception and is known mostly for its desserts and for offering a unique experience to guests." (the lead does not give due weight as is given in the body)
    • Check for Opening paragraph (MOS:BEGIN):  Done
      • Check for First sentence (WP:LEADSENTENCE):  Done
        • Rimsky-Korsakoffee House is a classical music-themed coffeehouse, located in the Buckman neighborhood of southeast Portland, Oregon, in the United States.
        • Definition and notability should be in the first sentence (WP:BETTER). As per WP:LEADSENTENCE, The article should begin with a short declarative sentence, answering two questions for the nonspecialist reader: "What (or who) is the subject?" and "Why is this subject notable?".
        • I think the "haunted" aspect of notability of this coffeehouse is a recurrent theme that appears both in this article and the sources it cites, and hence it should be highlighted in the first sentence.
      • Check for Format of the first sentence (MOS:BOLDTITLE):  Done
      • Check for Proper names and titles:  Done
      • Check for Abbreviations and synonyms (MOS:BOLDSYN): None
      • Check for Foreign language (MOS:FORLANG): None
      • Check for Pronunciation: None
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      • Check for Biographies: NA
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    • The lead needs to be expanded.
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 Done

Check for WP:LAYOUT:  Done

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    • Check for Further reading (WP:FURTHER): None
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Check for WP:WTW:  Done

  1. Check for Words that may introduce bias:  Done
    • Check for Puffery (WP:PEA):  Done
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    • Check for Unsupported attributions (WP:WEASEL):  Done
    • Check for Expressions of doubt (WP:ALLEGED):  Done
    • Check for Editorializing (MOS:OPED):  Done
    • Check for Synonyms for said (WP:SAY):  Done
  2. Check for Expressions that lack precision:  Done
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    • Check for Relative time references (WP:REALTIME):  Done
    • Check for Neologisms (WP:PEA): None
  3. Check for Offensive material (WP:F***):  Done

Check for WP:MOSFICT:  Done

  1. Check for Real-world perspective (WP:Real world):  Done
    • Check for Primary and secondary information (WP:PASI):  Done
    • Check for Contextual presentation (MOS:PLOT):  Done
None


2: Verifiable with no original research

 Done

Check for WP:RS:  Done

Cross-checked with other FAs: Weather Machine, Rufus Does Judy at Carnegie Hall, & Music for a Time of War. Also verified with one GA: Allow Me (Portland, Oregon)

  1. Check for the material (WP:RSVETTING): (contentious)  Done
    • Is it contentious?: Yes
    • Does the ref indeed support the material?:
  2. Check for the author (WP:RSVETTING):  Done
  3. Check for the publication (WP:RSVETTING):  Done
  4. Check for Self-published sources (WP:SPS):
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Check for inline citations WP:MINREF:  Done

  1. Check for Direct quotations:  Done
    • "haunted" (not cited in the lead, but cited later in the body to Source 4,13,18)
    • "pseudo elegant" ... .[1][18] (Check on source 1, unsuccessful, not in source 1, check on source 18 (Google Book), successful, "As owner Goody Cable explains it, each cloth-and-glass-topped table is named for a different classical composer and has a "pseudo elegant" decor, with delicate flowers and soft candlelight. Everything ...")
    • "mecca for grungy young artist-types seeking caffeine, chocolate and liberal-minded conversation".[2] (Check on source 2, successful, "")
    • "one of the best" ... .[3]
    • "haunted" ... [4][13][18] (Check on source 4, successful, ""Unlike any other place in Portland" say fans of this "quirky" Buckman coffeehouse set in an old house, where "delicious" desserts are served in "eclectic" environs decorated with random knickknacks and oddities (hanging ornaments, ‘haunted' tables that rotate or vibrate); "live classical music" on the weekends adds to the experience, just bring cash (no cards) and don't forget to check out the famous bathroom upstairs.")
    • "odd things" ... .[4][5]
    • "quirky" and "unlike any other place in Portland" ... "famous".[4]
    • "nearly hidden from view" ... .[5][7] (Check on source 5, successful, "Eclectic spot in an older craftsman house nearly hidden from view by the surrounding trees and shrubs. The bizarre 70's style wallpaper, odd things hanging from the ceiling and the reports of hauntings and the surrounding foliage make you feel like you've slipped into a dimension similar but not quite the same as our own. Coffee and deserts are served for your voyage.")
    • "eclectic spot" ... "make you feel like you've slipped into a dimension similar but not quite the same as our own".[5]
    • "rich" ... "attractive".[6] (Check on source 6, successful, "Attractive ice cream desserts and rich coffee are served while live classical music is performed in what was once the living ...")
    • "eclectic haunt" a "spooky alternative" ... .[6] (Check on source 6, unsuccessful, more is inaccessible to me, check on Google, query quote "eclectic haunt" + "spooky alternative", this quote appears in another RS (http://local.yahoo.com/info-21970299-rimskykorsakoffee-house-portland?viewtype=map) as "About: Attractive ice cream desserts and rich coffee are served while live classical music is performed in what was once the living room of an old, reportedly haunted Portland residence. This eclectic haunt is a spooky alternative to visiting a bar, club or movie. Sit at one of the tables or lounge on a couch.", either this link in ref needs to be confirmed or replaced)
    • "Best concert-in-a-coffeehouse".[7]
    • "to stop cleaning [her] house for music parties," ... .[11] (Check on source 11, successful, ""I opened the coffeehouse to stop cleaning my house for music parties." She'd held classical music parties in her home for years.")
    • "homelike" ... .[11] (Check on source 11, successful, "Cable's vision cast dozens of conversational types gathering in her homelike restaurant, drinking dark brews, ... ")
    • "conversation, creation, education, game playing and enjoying nature".[11] (Check on source 11, successful, "Cable measures her own life on a 90/10 principle. "Ninety percent of what people do is not important," she said, "while the real core of life is 10 percent." For Cable that core is conversation, creation, education, game playing and enjoying nature.")
    • "never" ... [11]
    • "I don't think Rimsky's would have worked anyplace else... Certainly not for 28 years."[12]
    • "nights-only" ... "screams 'only in Portland' ".[13] (Check on source 13, successful, "")
    • "under-the-sea" ... "regularly induces screams".[13][18] (Check on source 13, successful, "")
    • "cozy little place with an easygoing feel".[13][14] (Check on source 13, successful, "")
    • "bizarre 70's style" ... [15] (Check on source 15 (Google Book), unsuccessful, No results found in this book for bizarre 70's style - Search all books », not in source 15) It's in source 5.
    • "oddball" art,[15] (Check on source 15, successful, as below)
    • "most atmospheric" ... "fun and sassy" ... "to die for" ... "you have to see to believe".[15] (Check on source 15, successful, "The most atmospheric' coffee-house in town, RKH fills a former Victorian home with oddball art, moving tables, an decorated bathrooms you have to see to believe. The waiters are fun and sassy and the desserts, especially the sundaes, to die for. Some say the place is actually haunted.")
    • "odd and peculiar eateries" ... "novelty" ... .[17]
    • "surprising, alarming, and quite curious".[18]
    • "Rasputin's Vice" ... "Tsar Sulton Suite".[19][20]
    • "whimsical" and wrote, "this is a great evening stopoff for caffeine and dessert. It can sometimes be a bit crowded, but the mocha fudge cake is phenomenal with coffee, and the quirky clientele and (sometimes live) music can keep you lingering over that amazing cheesecake!"[21] (Check on source 21, inaccessible)
    • "Portland's favorite dessert hangout for more than 25 years" ... .[22]
    • "Best Coffee Shop" and "Best Dessert".[26]
    • "Best Dessert" ... "Best of Portland" ... [28][29]
    • "Coffee Shop That Should Get You Amped" ... "Keep Portland Weird" ... "funkiest" ... .[30] (Check on source 30, successful, "Coffee shop that should get you amped ... The weird: Come for the coffee and desserts, stay for a seat at a "haunted" table, the singing staff and a trip to the funkiest bathroom in town.")
  2. Check for Likely to be challenged:  Done
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3: Broad in its coverage

 Done

Thorough check on Google in parallel with the criteria 2 above. Cross-checked with other FAs: Weather Machine, Rufus Does Judy at Carnegie Hall, & Music for a Time of War. Also verified with one GA: Allow Me (Portland, Oregon)

  1. Check for Article scope as defined by reliable sources:  Done
    1. Check for The extent of the subject matter in these RS:  Done
    2. Check for Out of scope:  Done
  2. Check for The range of material that belongs in the article:  Done
    1. Check for All material that is notable is covered:  Done
    2. Check for All material that is referenced is covered:  Done
    3. Check for All material that a reader would be likely to agree matches the specified scope is covered:  Done
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b. Focused:
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4: Neutral

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4. Fair representation without bias:  Done

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  11. Check for Attributing and specifying biased statements (WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV):  Done
  12. Check for Fringe theories and pseudoscience (WP:PSCI): None
  13. Check for Religion (WP:RNPOV): None


5: Stable: No edit wars, etc:


6: Images  Done (Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license) & (Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license)

Images:
 Done

6: Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:  Done

  1. Check for copyright tags (WP:TAGS):  Done
    • Image 1 (Rimsky-Korsakoffee House-1.jpg): This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license. This version permits free use, including commercial use.
    • Image 2 (Downtown Portland.png): This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license. This version permits free use, including commercial use.
    • Image 3 (Rimsky-Korsakoffee House-2.jpg): This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license. This version permits free use, including commercial use.
  2. Check for copyright status:  Done
    • Image 1 (Rimsky-Korsakoffee House-1.jpg): Free.
    • Image 2 (Downtown Portland.png): Free.
    • Image 3 (Rimsky-Korsakoffee House-2.jpg): Free.
  3. Check for non-free content (WP:NFC): None
  4. Check for valid fair use rationales (WP:FUR): NA

6: Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:  Done

  1. Check for image relevance (WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE):  Done
    • Image 1 (Rimsky-Korsakoffee House-1.jpg): Relevant.
    • Image 2 (Downtown Portland.png): Relevant.
    • Image 3 (Rimsky-Korsakoffee House-2.jpg): Relevant.
  2. Check for Images for the lead (WP:LEADIMAGE):  Done
    • Lead Image (Rimsky-Korsakoffee House-1.jpg): Appropriate & Representative
  3. Check for suitable captions (WP:CAPTION):  Done
    • Caption 1: "Rimsky-Korsakoffee House in 2013" succinct and informative
    • Caption 2: "Location in Portland, Oregon" succinct and informative
    • Caption 3: "Front entrance in 2013" succinct and informative


As per the above checklist, the issues identified are:

It's a very promising GA nominee. I'm delighted to see your work here. I'm putting the article on hold. All the best! --Seabuckthorn ♥ 21:11, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, everything looks good now. Passing the article to GA status. --Seabuckthorn ♥ 17:00, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much, Seabuckthorn, for your time and assistance. --Another Believer (Talk) 17:03, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for enriching our lives with music. Thanks for such fabulous articles. --Seabuckthorn ♥ 17:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Picky question about page numbers in references

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Another Believer: In the references, there are some Oregonian page numbers listed as "07" and "D01". Is this how the page numbers appear in the original source? I do not have access to the original sources, but that page number formatting seems unlikely. I have not changed it.

Also, is the word "to" missing from this Portland Mercury quote? "...slipped into a dimension similar [to] but not quite..." – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jonesey95 for the thorough copyedit. I entered The Oregonian citations. I believe the alphanumeric page designations show the page numbers within separate sections of the newspaper. That's how they appear in the original source, which I'm able to get at through the Multnomah County Library's on-line research section. (Any card-carrying user of the library can do the same.) If you want me to double-check any particularly suspicious detail, I'd be happy to do that. Just let me know. Finetooth (talk) 17:18, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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