Talk:Rikishi

In my Japanese class we learned that sumou wrestlers are called "sumoutori." Should that be included? Brutannica 04:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Um, also, I think this page is pretty redundant and ought to be merged (or more realistically, deleted) or expanded to describe rikishi more thoroughly. Brutannica 04:34, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Exclusively...

"although there are some exceptions, most come from Japan, where sumo is practiced exclusively"

You mean everyone in Japan practices Sumo? Or everyone who practices Sumo is from Japan? You've just said they haven't in the previous sentence! I'll remove it, since it's an obvious logical inconsistency, and see what good it does the world...

84.67.73.190 (talk) 02:07, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

It means that Japan is the only place where professional sumo is practiced. It seems perfectly clear to me. P-K3 (talk) 13:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Surely sumo is practiced, if in a very reduced capacity, elsewhere in the world. And there are definitely foreign sumo wrestlers, if this isn't otherwise stated. Maybe this sentence could be reworded for clarity. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 11:11, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

It is not practiced professionally anywhere else in the world. Only amateur. A rikishi is by definition a professional sumo wrestler. But I agree it could be reworded.-- P-K3 (talk) 13:27, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Rikishi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: OtharLuin (talk · contribs) 14:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 11:18, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll have a crack at this Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:18, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

General Comments

I'll try to do this all in one sitting, but it's quite long, I might be adding text as I go. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:34, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I've done a bit over half of the prose review. I've found quite a few issues, but they will be pretty easily resolved. I hope you can see some of the issues I've identified (glosses, idioms, concision/redundancy, minor clarity) and do a copyedit of the rest of the article before I continue so that I am not repeating myself. When you ping me that this is completed, I'll continue with the review. Thankyou. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 14:41, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Helo Rolling, first of all, thank you for taking on this time-consuming rereading. It's true that it's a rather heavy article. I've provided some answers and made the first changes in the body of the article. I look forward to your feedback on the rest of the proofreading. Thanks again! :) - OtharLuin (talk) 10:09, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey OtharLuin, I loved this article. I've just finished up, a few things to address. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for your comments. I had some opinions on certain parts of the review, so let me know if it's ok for you :) - OtharLuin (talk) 10:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Everything looks great. I'm not comfortable passing until I get some confirmation on the MEDRS question, so I've dropped it in the MEDRS noticeboard here and once we have confirmation either way, I'll give it a pass. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 15:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. In any case, thank you very much for the proofreading, it was a very big article and it's true that it's often discouraging for members of the WP Good article :) - OtharLuin (talk) 15:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

That's quite alright. I know it took me a while, but your prose is so damn readable, even if I had a lot of comments to make. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey OtharLuin, I've received a comment that the sources will be okay, although the obesity statistic is likely out of date and should be updated if you can find one. I have also had a look, and found this source which I'd like to see integrated. Other than that, all good to go. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:19, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

May have gotten ahead of myself, more comments coming in which say more MEDRS are needed. I won't summarise here as reading it yourself would be more insightful. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I think I'll just delete the paragraph. Feedbacks from the WP seems to me to be divided on the level of source material to bring in as a reference, with some people agreeing on a level of secondary press sources as sufficient and others urging detailed academic research. Everyone also agrees that there is little material to bring in more detail. The examples of sources provided aren't very useful and I don't feel I have the legitimacy to go any further with the research, as I'm not well versed in medical fields. I'd also like to point out that sumo is not one of the most widely published subjects, most of our material consists of press articles, and as far as books are concerned, the 1960s and 2000s account for the largest number of publications, so you won't find anything more recent on this front. - OtharLuin (talk) 11:54, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I think keep as much as you can. The COVID stuff can definitely be kept as it is discussing attitudes, and probably the first paragraph. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:14, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done- OtharLuin (talk) 13:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Let's close this down. Thankyou so much for your patience. Rollinginhisgrave (talk)

Prose and content

Lede

• are heirs to traditions dating less idiomatic
  •  Done
• as it has been in freefall since the 90s redundant, and too dramatic. It has already been noted that the numbers have been declining since the 90s.
  •  Done Simplified.

Terminology

• a priori relevant simplify
  •  Done Rephrased.
• In the old days less colloquial, more specific
  •  Done

History

• Sumo has its origins in traditions already present on the Asian continent awkward, present at the time of founding
  • I tried to develop, let me know if it's ok
• gloss Nihon Shoki
  •  Done
• were introduced at court is this the Heian court or general courts? If it the former it should be preceded with "the".
  •  Done. I was indeed talking about the imperial court.
• as it was Japan's only metropolis at the time → as it had been Japan's only metropolis.
  •  Done
• veritable what does this mean here?
  • Misleading. Iirc, I was trying to say that the wrestlers suites were institutionalized to such an extent that they were comparable to real royal households. It's a weird phrazing, I deleted it.
• put their martial skills put their martial art skills?
  • That's the meaning yes, I added "art" but I still think "martial" was sufficient on its own
• created conflicts over money awkward, "came into conflict over money"?
  •  Done
• You refer to these fighters as wrestlers for most of the article instead of rikishi. Given the terminology section criticises the term wrestler for them, is there a reason for it?
  • It's true, and I've asked myself the same question. The question of the term is raised in two books I've read on the subject of rikishi, so I still think that mentioning this conflict of terms is a good thing for the article. Most press sources on sumo, however, use the term "wrestler", so I've followed that convention, especially as biographies use the term "wrestler" more often.
• In 1684, these movements bore fruit idiom
  •  Done. Rephrased.
• by the name of concise
  •  Done.
• They were allowed to participate as special guests to official tournaments participate in? if not, attend?
  •  Done. To participate in.
• During sumo's first golden age give a time period
  •  Done
• Social movements in sumo did not cease, however this implies their reforms were successful, is this true?
  • Yes it was. It's explained in the continuation of the sentence
• Gloss on ōzeki or yokozuna
  •  Done

Lifestyle

• Change the section heading to just "Lifestyle"
  •  Done
• The life of a rikishi is first and foremost a gravitation of strict rules oriented towards absolute obedience and respect for superiors and seniors What does a "gravitation" mean here?
  • I don't quite understand why I phrased it like that now... I rephrased the sentence.
• that may seem outdated or feudal... in reality editorialising
  • The terms are the one chosen by the source (Cuyler p.138). I've added quotation marks for better understanding.
• defining exactly how a wrestler dresses, how much he earns and how he will be treated by his peers concision, i.e. determining dress, earnings and treatment from peers.
  •  Done.
• (as of January 2024) rearrange sentence, substitute Today
  •  Done.
• In this extremely demanding sport, statistics shows that Redundant
  •  Done. Simplified.
• on behalf of his superior on behalf of the sekitori or tsukebito's superior?
  • On behalf of the sekitori. A sekitori is always the superior of a tsukebito.
• The treatment a wrestler receives in his stable is based exclusively on his ranking Redundant
  •  Done. Rephrased.
• fighting spirit less colloquial
  • It's the term used by the source (Cuyler p.141). I've added quotation marks for better understanding.
• Sekitori-ranked wrestlers always turn up last at training sessions redundant
  • Removed some "training" and rephrased to make it less redundant.
• When the sekitori practice is at its height I had to reread this a few times to understand, reword for clarity
  • Rephrased, the source doesn't go into much detail about what it means by sekitori training, so I prefer to stick to a description close to what the source says.
• The sekitori are served by makushita wrestlers, who are in turn served by sandamme wrestlers, and so on down to the youngest apprentices summarise
  • Rephrased.
• who were up and working before anyone else redundant
  •  Done
• and gone upstairs are all stables multistory?
  • Most of them are. Sumo stables are mostly located in Tokyo's Ryogoku district (in Sumida Ward iirc). Most of them look like small apartment buildings. Nowadays, however, they are appearing in municipalities bordering Tokyo, due to rising prices. I've reworded to reflect this reality, even if the source does mention that you take a nap "upstairs".
• siesta-like redundant
  •  Done
• loincloths over the years what does over the years mean here?
  • Training mawashi are not changed often, so the more time you spend in the sekitori ranks the more yellow-ish your mawashi looks like. Senior sekitori have worned out mawashi yellowed by the years they spent at that rank.
• When wrestlers are ranked as jūryō and above, the sagari are rigid and made from strings of silk, whereas for makushita wrestlers and below, the sagari are dangling and made of cotton. dupe of table content, merge.
  •  Done.
• professional sumo may seem to pay its athletes poorly may seem to
  •  Done
• paid according to this system of accumulation of money accumulation of payment/salary/income?
  •  Done. Simplified.
• they won redundant
  •  Done
• in compensation for the salary in compensation for the lack of salary?
  • No. Todays wrestlers are paid with a salary but the mochikyūkin continues to be paid as a complement. I rephrased it.
• Immediately after the match, the winner receives an envelope from the referee with half of his share of the sponsorship, is this particularly theatrical and a notable feature? If not, probably TMI.
  • You could say it's theatrical and notable yes. The idea behind it is that this question is asked a lot by sumo newcommers ("what are those envelopes the gyoji hands out at the end of the match?"). I'm keen to keep it.
• often compared to those between a child asking his parents for pocket money Can you give me the quote for this?
  • The quote is the source directly related to it (Kenrick, p. 120)
• (from lightest to heaviest punishment) redundant
• was then eventually added to the dismissal, allowing -> allows or introduce that there was a change, and when, when the "extraordinary" measure was introduced.
  • My paragraphs were weirdly organized and I feel it played a role in your understanding. Let me know if it's good now.
• The only cases of expulsion was in 1873, with the expulsion of Koyanagi and Takasago. avoid two uses of expulsion
  •  Done
• in that no wrestler had been formally excluded from the association since its foundation this is repetition
  •  Done
• the latter setting a precedent in the association's history by yes, if he was in a group that was the first to be dismissed, he will be the first to be reinstated by lawsuit.
  • I imagine you're saying this to point out a repetition or a logical link that doesn't merit development, but I'm still inclined to keep it.
• On the subject of violence, a yokozuna involved will therefore be subject to a sanction at least equal to a recommendation to retire due to their "social responsibility", a sekitori will not have sanctions lower than a suspension when makushita wrestlers or lower normally risk a suspension at the most I know this would have been hard to reword, but it's very clunky.
• on the basis of the success of their career concise
  •  Done
• people of responsibility awkward
  • Went for 'managers'.
• nonetheless exercise subordinate functions reword
  •  Done
• They serves according to the instructions of other superiors reword
  • Went to simplify the whole thing. I deleted it.
• This makes their situation complex, as when they enter the job market they find themselves competing with other employees of the same age group who do, however, have much more professional experience. this is inferred
  • I don't completely agree and would like to keep this notion of age group.
• Some former sumo wrestlers tried their luck competing is this ongoing ?
  • As far as I know, there have been no rikishi in wrestling or pro wrestling lately. The conjugation is more there to standardize the paragraph.

Numbers

• These days more specific, i.e. since the 90s
  •  Done. Went for the 2020s.

Foreign-born rikishi

• as is the case for Japanese wrestlers who are registered by prefecture of origin a lot more concise given previous sentence implies most of this.
  •  Done
• managed to join the ranks -> joined / joined sumo
  •  Done
• and fortune in sumo did he achieve fortune?
  • I rephrased it.
• Hawaii-born 287 kilograms (633 lb) mega-weight Konishiki, of ethnic Samoan descent I don't know if this name can be trimmed, but it is very long.
  •  Done
• to draw a parallel with the Americans who had conquered both the country and sumo specify in the 19th century, and remove reference to conquering sumo.
  •  Done
• Can I get quotes for Japan has a xenophobic culture? Actually, it should probably be removed per WP:SURPRISE.
  • The term is the one used in the sources (Hall, p. 16 and Buckingham, p. 66) and it has already been noted that Koreans and other foreigners have been slow to gain a real foothold in the sport. So I think the phenomenon is well enough documented for the term "xenophobic" to remain in the article.
• However, all wrestlers involved in professional sumo are treated the same once they have joined the stables this directly contradicts the previous sentence. Maybe clarify "formally"?
  • It's a paradox yes. I rephrased it a bit.
• for racial reasons is this a euphemism for racism?
  • I rephrased it.
• He explained WP:SAID
  •  Done
• there would be ten Hawaiian wrestlers in the same stable living in their own "little clique," not learning Japanese, so the rule "protects the culture of stables." is this his prediction of the future or what he thinks is happening?
  • Gunning explains what would happen if the rule on foreigners in the stables was not enforced.
• This occurred when Hisanoumi changed his nationality from Tongan at the end of 2006, allowing another Tongan to enter his stable,[45] and Kyokutenhō's change of citizenship allowed Ōshima stable to recruit Mongolian Kyokushūhō in May 2007. only need to list one, as an example
  •  Done
• although the restriction has never been challenged in court. update source if you're going to make this claim
  • After checking the source, it appears that the end of the sentence is in fact not stated anywhere in the article. I deleted the end.
• if a foreigner wishes to remain in the Sumo Association is this true? From what I've read it seems like them becoming Japanese citizens is optional/unusual
  • They can stay as wrestlers but if they want to become a coach they must be Japanese citizens. I clarified the sentence.

Health effects

• and the rikishi are therefore athletes with an imposing body fat redundant
  •  Done
• ensures the health of its wrestlers it doesn't do a very good job of this if they're dying so young. Can remove.
  • I rephrased it a bit. Let me know if it's ok.
• due to the enormous amount of body mass and fat that they accumulate redundant
  •  Done
• Those having a higher body mass are at greater risk of death I feel like this has already been said when you say the fattest rikishi get diabetes and have heart attacks
  •  Done
• Gloss heya
  •  Done
• giving rise to numerous concerns about the number of wrestlers affected by the virus because they got COVID, or concerns over the number that would get it?
  • Their was concern about what would happen if a spectator gave COVID to a wrestler, given that the heya system is a "virus farm" because of the rikishi's lifestyle. I rephrased the sentence a bit, let me know if it's ok.

Sources

WP:MEDRS needed for:

• Arthritis
• Long-term cognitive problems
• Susceptibility to viral infections
  • I don't think a scientific literature is necessary for a quick mention of the risks of physical activities on wrestlers. The terms are used in sources that are derived from reliable secondary sources.

Spot Check

• Ref #10 N What makes you think this is "the first accounts of matches held during the Yamato kingship period"
  • In the source, the first mention of ritual sumo performances are said to have been held in the Yamato court. Nomi no Sukune and Tama no Kehaya match is the first one to be documented.
• Ref #17 Y
• Ref #18 Y
• Ref #27 Y
• Ref #56 Y
• Ref #75 Y
• Ref #80 Y
• Ref #83 N directly contradicts source
  • I deleted it. Can't find back where I saw the information.
• Ref #110 Y

Other

• No problems with broadness (exceptional), detail is fine Y
• No COPYVIO/OR (earwig 7.4%, and quotes) Y
• Neutral Y
• Stable Y
• Images: All appropriately tagged from PD, Flickr, Twitter and own work Y

Suggestions

• It has been noted by many authors interested in sumo Better attribution
  •  Done
• didn't MOS:CONTRACTIONS
  •  Done.
• to hold a tournament after proposing a new etiquette associated with tournaments avoid repeating tournaments here. Associated with tournaments may even be redundant.
  •  Done
• Glosses on some Japanese terms such Kibyōshi, daimyo; MOS:FORCELINK
• In recent years, sumo has developed MOS:DATED
  •  Done
• lit. 'ginko-leaf topknot') because it resembles the leaf of the ginkgo tree can you put a wikilink inside the translation? Because it is silly to have the translation repeated immediately after.
  •  Done
• Compensation paid to lower-ranked wrestlers varies according to their rank try to avoid double use of rank
• Since Yokozuna Kakuryū's retirement in 2021, the presidency of the rikishi-kai is currently vacant MOS:DATED
• The number of newcomers to the sport has never been so low since the introduction of the six-tournament-a-year system MOS:DATED

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:34, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.