Talk:Rick Suder

Rick Suder has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: August 18, 2023. (Reviewed version).

A fact from Rick Suder appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 24 June 2023 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Rick Suder was bumped from the NCAA record book by JJ Redick and Gerry McNamara?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2023/June. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Rick Suder.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Edge3 (talk) 02:11, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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... that Rick Suder was bumped from the NCAA record book by JJ Redick and Gerry McNamara? Source: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2007/2007RB.pdf
- ALT1: ... that Rick Suder was among the Top 25 most accurate free throw shooters in college basketball history until he was passed by JJ Redick in 2006?
- ALT2: ... that Rick Suder was among the Top 25 most accurate free throw shooters in college basketball history until he was passed by JJ Redick and Gerry McNamara in 2006?
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Charles Sorby
- Comment: 1st of 10 QPQs for this review

Created by TonyTheTiger (talk). Self-nominated at 17:35, 20 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Rick Suder; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

Will take for review Longhornsg (talk) 02:57, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited:
Interesting: - n

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Hook as written doesn't really say anything and the wording is confusing. Did Redick and McNamara physically bump him? Why is it interesting that Suder was passed in the record books? I made some direct edits to the article and added ALT1 hook as an option for a more descriptive hook. Would also improve the inline citing of your sourcing in the article. -— Preceding unsigned comment added by Longhornsg (talk • contribs) 03:17, March 21, 2023 (UTC) --TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Would displaced be a better verb? The point of the hook is to draw the reader in with the implication that Suder may have held some important record that these other guys broke. In fact, he was 24th on a top 25 list and these guys entered the list above him to move him out of the top 25.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. While I have your attention. I think we should discuss the WP:LEAD. Honestly, I think it needs to include a mention of his grandfather. I have created a lot of relatives of famous people and most of them have become quite stable with the mention of the famous relative. I.e., articles that are relavant for WP:CBBALL, such as Tim Hardaway Jr., Glen Rice Jr., Aubrey Dawkins, Glenn Robinson III, Kameron Chatman, Phil Pressey, Patrick Beilein, and Ian Hummer are stable long-term articles that include mention of their famous fathers, uncles or cousins. Distant 3rd cousin Caris LeVert does not include relatives in the LEAD. I don't know why I never put Brian Earl's brother in the LEAD. Since his brother mentions him in his LEAD, I have added his brother. Since both Foster Loyer and Fletcher Loyer are both relatively new articles (created during the same trip down the David DeJulius-->Foster Loyer-->Fletcher Loyer and Rick Suder rabbit hole as this one) I can't confirm that they will be stable with the mention of their famous fathers. Bob Scrabis (basketball) is also too new to describe as stable yet. I am deliberating about how to mention Suder's grandfather. You removed the sentence "He is the grandson of Major League Baseball infielder Pete Suder", which I think is an appropriate LEAD inclusion. I am deliberating about expanding the prose of the main body to add the following on the the current sentence in the main body, "who is notable for platooning with Nellie Fox as part of a double play record-setting infield." However, I think as part of the LEAD, I am also suppose to mention his financial advisory career since I should summarize every major section of the article in a proper LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:56, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- N.B. Because of the number of articles that I have done regarding famous relatives and how stable the relative mentions have been in the articles, I am going to do a partial revert of your edit and add the platoon mention and a financial advisory mention.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have revised the LEAD to summarize each major section of the article..--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Longhornsg:-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Mike Yastrzemski (unlike the others I was not involved in this article) has one of the more famous grandfathers.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:14, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT 1 is not accurate, so I added ALT2.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:02, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ALT 2 is so literal that it is no fun. I think the original hook is the fun one.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:55, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I do not see the significance of mentioning JJ Redick and the others in the hook. Would it not be enough to say something like "at one point, Rick Suder was..."? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:23, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- My point is that Suder is less known than the other two people I mentioned, so it is sort of a big deal that it took a couple of much more famous people to bump him from the list.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:02, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That would probably not pass WP:DYKSG#C2, or at least the spirit of it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:29, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really understand your point, which I think is suppose to be guiding the structure of my hook presentation.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:45, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think any of the proposed hooks are going to seem significant to readers unfamiliar with basketball and who don't know who JJ Redick is. That was the point I was making. If anything, their mention distracts from the main point and makes the hooks less accessible to general audiences (remember that we write even for audiences who aren't into basketball). It might be better to just leave their mentions out and just focus on the Top 25 thing without other names. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:21, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

- ALT3: ... that Rick Suder was among the Top 25 most accurate free throw shooters in college basketball history until he was passed by two other players in 2006?

JJ Redick is a surefire National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame for people who follow the sport. I.e., most people who know basketball, know him and would be intrigued by Suder's link to Redick. However, the mention of his name is not likely to detract attention from the hook of those who don't know the sport. I have presented an ALT3 and object to its use because it seems ridiculous to anonymize Redicks identity.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. here is an article about someone who was passed by Redick after 20 years. Note it names him specifically rather than says he was passed by someone else or another player.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New reviewer needed to look at hooks and other issues raised by the original reviewer and others. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Everything's in order. I'm with TonyTheTiger on this, I think ALT0 is the best of the four hooks; I personally would spell out "National Collegiate Athletic Association", but that's a minor fix, probably not worth holding this up much longer.--Laun chba ller 16:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To Prep 7 Edge3 (talk) 02:11, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rick Suder/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: LunaEatsTuna (talk · contribs) 00:10, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will review. ツ LunaEatsTuna (💬)— 00:10, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On hold; over to you! ツ LunaEatsTuna (💬)— 23:41, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am satisfied with the changes made and can now confidently pass this great article for GA status. Congrats! ツ LunaEatsTuna (💬)— 16:41, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio check

Earwig says good to go. No concerns from me either.

Prose

What is the source for his birthdate estimate and height in the infobox?
- Height from this-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:27, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I think his age is roughly estimated from the time he transitioned from high school to college.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:37, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The lead could be massively improved; several sentences begin with "He". Try to connect sentences together where applicable and alternate between "he" and his last name to avoid redundancy.
- Ok.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:40, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In § Early life, I would lead with his full name as its his first mention in the body. Also:
- Done-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could his birthdate perhaps be incorporated?
- If I knew it.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:42, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is "a Five-Star Camp"?
- Not important and probably a distraction.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:39, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Center High School (Monaca, Pennsylvania)" – recommend "Center High School in Monaca, Pennsylvania" as standard. Also:
- OK.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:47, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would make it "… in Monaca, Pennsylvania—which merged into Central Valley High School in 2010—before …" for better flow.
- Thx.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:49, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"According to the Beaver County, Sports Hall of Fame" – is a comma needed here? Same for § Legacy.
- Thx for pointing this out.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:50, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"… set two months earlier (December 10, 1983)" – "… on December 10, 1983" reads better.
- OK.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:53, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"commenced involving four suspended black players on the team" – why does it mention their race??
- Removed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:12, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"following a rape trial" – should it not be the rape trial?
- Sure.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:15, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"with (Blaney, Martin, Blake and Barry Mungar)" – remove parentheses.
- Moved paren to (with.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:18, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"which was filed February 9, 2009" – remove the year since it was just mentioned.
- OK.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:21, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"two having National Basketball Association playing experience" – how about "two having experience playing for the National Basketball Association" instead?
- OK.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:24, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"and who is notable" – is who needed here? Forgive me if this is standard in American English, which I do not speak.
- Optional/removed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:29, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"His son Peter, was" – recommend "His son, Peter, was" or remove the comma entirely.
- Thx.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Refs

Passes spotcheck.

Others

Short description should go at the very top.
- Moved from 3rd line to 1st line.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:34, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In external links, capitalise College stats.
- Done-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:32, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.