Talk:Richard More (Parliamentarian)

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I am proposing a major edit to this page to correct errors and substitute more reliable and more accessible references.

Proposed edits:

I am unaware of any primary source reference to support the view that Richard More did not attend university due to the death of his father. The reference given is unaccessible to many - and to me. Richard More succeeded to the Larden estates as a result of the marriage of his son, Samuel, to Katherine More of Larden(ref: The More Archive Shropshire Council). Jasper More did not die in a duel, that was his son, Richard (Blakeway: A history of Shrewsbury). This death may have led to the marriage between Katherine and Samuel, but that is conjecture, not fact. I am not aware of any primary evidence that Richard More was active in trade, either in Bishop's Castle or elsewhere. The existing record shows him as the owner of considerable estates in Shropshire (op cit More Archive). Given the attitudes of the time I feel it is more likely that these estates were the source of his wealth. He certainly wrote on religious themes, and possessed a considerable library of religious works, but I feel the phrase 'strong puritan' is an exaggeration, unsupported by evidence. Not all who fought for parliament were strong puritans. These is no reference for the following clause 'He was a committee member under the Scandalous Ministers Act and a member of the Shropshire Sequestration committee'.

I also propose to link to the other More pages: Samuel More and Katherine More

--Shropshire Lad (talk) 09:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

You are clearly at a disadvantage if you are unable to access the google preview of the reference I have given. This was published by Cambridge University Press in 1989 and reissued in paperback in 2002 and is therefore a reliable source. Secondary sources are preferred to primary sources in Wikipedia to avoid the question of "Own Research". You may be able to obtain a copy of the book through Amazon if it is not in any accessible library. Every point you raise is covered in this source, and as the book is about a Laudite clergyman to whom More gave a living the contradiction in his puritan beliefs is brought out. The source quotes a number of primary sources including DNB, W F Farrow The Great Civil War in Shropshire, and what is the primary reference book on members of parliament in the Long Parliament. It also cites TSAS articles (presumably transactions of some Shropshire society) including F Lander "Bishops Castle Burgesses and Freemen" 1949 and Henry Weyman "The Members of Parliament for Bishops Castle". If there is conflicting evidence, this needs to be explained. Thank you for alerting me to his son Samuel who was MP in 1656. I doubt if Katherine merits a separate article, but I'm not one for splatting. Regards Motmit (talk) 13:13, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks fr the quick reply.

I did manage to access the source today. You make a valid point about own research, and I have been examining the primary sources for the More family. But the starting point for my researches was the published work of a local historian (‘The More Children and The Mayflower’ & ‘Richard More of Shipton’ both by Donald F. Harris Ph.D: published by The Churchwardens of St James Parish Church, Shipton).

These pamphlets are themselves a precis of three research papers published in ‘The Mayflower Descendant’, the magazine of the Massachusetts Society of Mayflower Descendants, (Volume 43 July 1993 and Volume 44 January & July 1994.)

This research, which carries the advantage that it was specifically focused on the More family, contradicts most of the article on Richard More. Moreover, it is supported by primary sources, such as the More family archive and the parish records to show the date of marriage of Samuel and Katherine More, and the date of death of Jasper More (1613).

The primary duty of any historian is to make every attempt to verify the evidence presented. It is also the duty of those who post to Wikipedia, as the rubric on every edit page states - 'encyclopedic content must be verifiable'.

So, for each of the points raised, here is the evidence:

Attendance at university? This cannot have been due to the death of Richard More's father, because Robert More died in 1604, by which time Richard More was already married and had a son aged ten. (source, op cit Mayflower descendant July 1994 page 113).

Inheritance of estates and death of Jasper More? These were acquired through marriage contract. (source op cit Mayflower descendant January 1994 pages 12-15). The More archive setting out marriage contracts and estate records is also available to download from the National Archive.

Involved in trade? This is arguable on your definition, since you have a source which states he was involved in trade, and I have no source which explicitly refutes this. But this was a man who owned over 3000 acres of Shropshire land, and who gave his son an advance on inheritance of £900 (approx. one million in today's money) when he attained the age of twenty one. There is no record of any guild membership, and no evidence in the More archive of any trading deals, other than land purchases and leases. The lack of evidence for involvement in trade is compelling, and your source has already been proved in error on the two points above

A Puritan? Richard More may have been a puritan, at least by a modern definition. But the fact is that he himself explicitly denied the term (op cit Mayflower descendant page 114 - quoting a letter written by Richard More in 1635 referring to the murder case referred to on the webpage).

Let me know your thoughts, but I am inclidened to make the edit nnetheless. I would however prefer to avoid a dispute, even if only for reasons of old fashioned courtesy.

Shropshire Lad (talk) 19:31, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

A few comments - date of Jasper's death was my transcription error. I have removed reference to duel which may be an error by the writer and it loses nothing to take it out. Burke I think implies the Lardon estates came on Jaspers decease - did he actually took possession of them the marriage of their children? More certainly did not go to university as he is not in the records of Oxford or Cambridge, although it seems he displayed prodigious learning. All the civic duties of sheriff, burgess, bailiff etc are usually occupied by people with a commercial interest in the town. Burke sometimes uses sheriff for High Sheriff of the county, which is usually associated with landowners, but More was never High Sheriff. His wife was a draper's daughter from Shrewsbury. He did not like the term puritan himself because it was a term of abuse but his religious outlook seems to have been pretty low. Anyway my interest was only to fill out bio details for a 17th century MP and these were the main references I could find on-line. The official History of Parliament details will become available next year and those should be a good source. Some argue that Wiki's role is not to go for accuracy and correctness, but simply quote the sources. I tend to disagree as I have come across gross errors in highly reputed sources (especially DNB) but these still have to be addressed to prevent later editors re-introducing them. Regards Motmit (talk) 20:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Have made the edits this morning. I will return to this page later today with some additional notes to support the changes made. Shropshire Lad (talk) 07:56, 28 September 2011 (UTC)