Talk:Richard Kemp

Richard Kemp has never visited the Gaza strip

In the section entitled "Testimony on the Gaza War", I added the information that Richard Kemp has never visited the Gaza strip. However this short, and properly referenced, addition was promptly reverted. Surly this information is pertinent to the weight that people attach to his Pronouncements on Operation Cast Lead. If an "expert" like Kemp publicises judgements on an event, I for one, would like to have some insight into the evidence they based their conclusions on. Prunesqualer (talk) 22:47, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The citation I have provided directly quotes Kemp as saying; "I have never been to Gaza." The full quote, from ynetnews, runs;

• "First of all, I have never been to Gaza. My assessment is based on what I read and see in the publications on both sides and the global press, and of course 30 years of participation in the war on terror.") —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prunesqualer (talk • contribs) 21:19, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

are you suggesting that we weasel-word into the article on every expert and talking head whether they were or were not in Gaza?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:23, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

No I am suggesting that when a Public figure makes controversial claims or statements, it is appropriate to include significant information relating to the information, or experience, on which they base those claims or statements.Prunesqualer (talk) 22:54, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

If we're going to do that, let's not cherry-pick pieces of his comment which make it seem like POV-pushing editorializing. I've reworded you addition to reflect his entire statement. HupHollandHup (talk) 03:51, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The Whole Article Reads Like A CV

A lot of this article reads as if it's a sales pitch for Col Kemp's consulting and media career. Examples below.

Early Life and Military Career

1. Captains don't command Brigade Tactical Headquarters. They may organise them for the Brigadier, but the word 'commanded' suggests a degree of importance he would not have had.

2. The claim he devised a new system for Warrior ranges requires citation and reads like an excerpt from a CV written in the third person. Even based on what the article states it would be more accurate to say "Col Kemp brought an American system of AFV ranges to the UK." It sounds less grand, but is all he appears to have done rather than 'devising' a 'new' system simply 'based' on American ideas.

3. The rest of this section I wouldn't dispute, but really requires citations to comply with Wikipedia rules, does it not?

Afghanistan

1. The elements of his command in Afghanistan could be tidied up to simply state the force lay down rather than suggest he was Very Important and had lots of men under his charge. Also this paragraph requires citation.

2. The claim he 'devised' (again) a technique for combating suicide attack which was previously absent from British military doctrine needs substantial verification.

Literary Career

1. Is it the place of a Wikipedia article to suggest a book's intent? Surely this is neither a site for literary criticism nor a site which should presume an authors intent? Or should the article be limiting itself to what the book is, when it was published, and how it was received. The facts, as it were.

This may read like sour grapes, but I just happened to come across this page and couldn't escape the feeling it had been professionally 'tweaked' to make the most of it.

09:36, 18 June 2011 (UTC)~I Bradshaw09:36, 18 June 2011 (UTC)~ (I think that's how you wanted it signed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.200.152 (talk)

I have taken the liberty of formatting your comments above for readability, feel free to revert me if you don't like them. In terms of your comments I don't disagree with them. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia everyone can edit so be bold and fix it. Our policy on biographies of living people should give you some pointers on what should be removed or amended. If you have any questions you can leave them here or my talkpage, regards. Woody (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

It is promoting the man, yes. He never served very long in Afghanistan.Cantab1985 (talk) 11:18, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

ola

venho por meio desse alertar ao senhor richard kemp que estão usando o nome e retrato dele em site de relacionamento (que passa ) indevidamente usando pessoas para fins lucrativos .foi dificil para mim encontrar essa maneira para esse alerta mas como tamben fui uma das vitimas resolvi relatar esse acontecimento obrigado pela atenção . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.170.22.119 (talk) 17:11, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Wingates statement on Israel which Richard Kemp spoke of @american jewish congress

According to British Colnel Richard Kemp, Mr. Wingate stated "upon his arrival in Palestine" not occupied israel or jewich land which gave jews rights to expel in any manner seen fit the native populous over 7 million people & still after 64 years still occupy Palestine. As Wingate said, "Palestine" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.20.227 (talk) 04:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Sources

The Mirror - David Haines 'beheading': Latest updates after ISIS video claiming to show execution of British hostage, 14 September 2014: Colonel Richard Kemp, former commander of British forces in Afghanistan, has called for "retribution" over the murder of David Haines. He said: "Having worked in British Government on hostage rescue I know how much effort has gone in to saving David Haines. Now is the time for retribution."

The Jewish Chronicle - Richard Kemp - Richard Kemp Analysis: The war crimes have been committed by Hamas, 24 July 2014.

Haaretz - Anshel Pfeffer - British lawyer, retired officer take opposing sides over Gaza war crimes , 29 October 2009.

UN Watch - UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report, 16 October 2009.

Honest Reporting - Colonel Richard Kemp: A True Friend, 13 June 2011.

BBC - John McManus - UK officer says views of Israeli forces 'anti-Semitic', 22 February 2010.

Israel Today - Ryan Jones - British Commander: IDF Most Moral Army World Has Ever Known, 24 July 2014.

    ←   ZScarpia   00:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC) {last edit: 09:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)}

Media sensationalisation. My FOIA Answwers show other wise.Phd8511 (talk) 09:32, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

The article includes a link to Richard Kemp's website. His Twitter feed can be found here. For my own future reference, I'd like to record a link to this tweet (Text: "This is a brilliant, clear & damning article by David Collier @mishtal showing how the media, especially BBC, Sky, Guardian, put all their might behind the Islamist campaign against Israel, the Jews & Western democracy, while ignoring the horrors they perpetrate around the world." The David Collier article referred to appears to be this one). While I'm at it, I'd like to record a link to this tweet too. Apologies if using the talkpage to record a link for such purposes looks to other editors to be a bit "off".     ←   ZScarpia   16:46, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

FOIA release

FOIA release:

Reference number: FOI2015/07567

1) How long was he commander of British Forces in Afghanistan (from what date to what date)?

Answer: Col Richard Kemp was the Commander of British Forces for Operation Fingal in Afghanistan from 5 July 2003 to 30 November 2003.

2) Why was only a OF-5 in charge of British Forces in Afghanistan then?

Answer: The rank of the Commander of British Forces will depend on their responsibilities, duties and the number of personnel at their command. At the time, it was considered that an OF-5 was a suitable rank for this position.

3) 3) How large was the size of the British Force that Col (Retd) Kemp commanded then? ( I would like to know in terms of units and personnel).

Answer: According to our records Col Kemp would have commanded a force of around 300 personnel.

Kemp was thus not a full field commander (Brigadier or General level) in charge of Op Herrick.

Further FOIA

1) Kemp only commanded 2 R ANGLIAN in Afghanistan for Operational Fingal, NOT the whole tri-service British Force.

2) His main responsibilities was only to support OP TARROCK.

SO HE IS NOT COMMANDER OF ALL BRITISH FORCES IN AFGHANISTAN.

Phd8511 (talk) 09:31, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Disputed - Kemp as 'Commander of British forces in Afghanistan'

I've been unable to verify that Kemp was the above, and the citations in the article are both dead links.

It would be highly unusual for a Colonel to command a state's armed forces in a war. All commanders of Task Force Helmand were Brigadiers. Can anyone verify that Kemp was in charge of British forces? I don't doubt that he was commander of one battalion, but that's around 700 soldiers, not the entire expeditionary force.

If Kemp did command the British forces in Afghanistan, then this ought to be easy to verify online. If he didn't, then the article as it stands is very misleading.

Any ideas?

Fugitivedave (talk) 18:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Accusations of Baroness Warsi

I refer to the recent revision on this subject which was then deleted with the comment "it belongs to article about Sayeeda Warsi, not here".

Kemp's notability rests in part on his work as a writer. The page about him includes a number of his comments on issues and people about whom separate articles exist on Wikipedia. It has not been suggested that such comments other than the one about Warsi should be removed from the page, but there is no objective reason to treat his comments on Warsi differently from the others. Nor is there an objective reason for restricting reports about the interaction between two notable people to the page about only one of them.

I shall be pleased to discuss if anyone wishes.Brixtonhill (talk) 06:17, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Brixtonhill has referenced the material, justified its place on the page, and offered to discuss here. Please stop edit-warring and discuss. Thanks Fugitivedave (talk) 09:59, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Unsourced content

Hi all. There's a lot of unsourced material in this article - I've added some citation needed templates. Does anyone have sources to cite for these sections? If not, I propose we remove that content soon. What do others think? Fugitivedave (talk) 16:36, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

They've been tagged for more than a year. I've just added some further refimprove tags, which might encourage other editors to provide sources: I'm going to give it a couple of weeks and then boldly delete some statements. ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 18:19, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Seems harsh.

"On 23 July 2018, The Daily Telegraph published an article by Kemp which argued that after its departure from the European Union, Britain should re-instate the death penalty for terrorism suspects." Normally we try them first, so I don't suppose he was really suggesting that we execute the suspects. I can't get to the Telegraph to check. Cross Reference (talk) 00:10, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Vladimir Putin

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/western-allies-should-not-rule-26452793 --Psheno (talk) 12:03, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Has any reputable newspaper run this story? Neither the Daily Mirror nor Daily Mail are reliable sources. —C.Fred (talk) 12:22, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

https://richard-kemp.com/a-plan-for-peace-in-europe/ + google… --Psheno (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

IDF

WP:BLPPRIMARY does not permit use if "charity commission record does not include any identifying details prohibited by BLP rules e.g. address, dob", it is a blanket prohibition saying "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person". Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. WP:BLPPRIMARY states:

Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses.

The addition being cited is not an 'assertion', it is a demonstrable statement of fact. The charity commission record cited does not include any of the personal details listed above as prohibited. Use of Charity Commisison records is common in articles, e.g:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rothschild,_4th_Baron_Rothschild

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stein_(physiologist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Wainwright#cite_ref-11

Article includes detail of subject's other minor roles, e.g. at Veterans for Britain. Why is his more significant role as a director/trustee of an organisation not included? Tomatoesarefruit (talk) 20:27, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

By your definition of "assertion", public records could be used for virtually anything. They cannot. Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

So does that mean public records cannot be used as a source for any wikipedia article? That makes no sense. There are millions of public record citations on here! Including the examples I gave above which are directly equivalent to the current issue. Also if public records cannot be used, we have to delete all references in the current article to the London Gazette because it is a public record. Which means taking out all references to Kemp's military career and awards. Tomatoesarefruit (talk) 21:06, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

No she's correct, had I recognised the reference I wouldn't have added the edit I did. I added back part of a previous edit I thought relevant. The London Gazette is a newspaper not a public record. The policy has many reasons, we are very careful with WP:BLP and the policies surrounding them are very strict to avoid wikipedia being abused to attack individuals. You have as of this moment 85 edits, I would suggest more experience in non-controversial areas before continuing. WCM_email 08:03, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The only secondary source I can find reporting on his membership of Friends of the Association for the Wellbeing of Israel's Soldiers is OpenDemoncracy, which has somewhat mixed discussions on reliability at WP:RSN. Given it is a matter of public record he is a member I would not imagine it would be unreliable in this case, subject to what text is being added to the article of course. Kathleen's bike (talk) 20:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't know how well MEE is rated by wikipedia as a source, but it has also reported on Kemp's role at UK AWIS/IDF: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-uk-charity-fundraising-israeli-soldiers-fighting-gaza Tomatoesarefruit (talk) 17:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Also The Sun refers to him as 'Colonel Richard Kemp, an ex-British army commander with links to the IDF'. I don't personally consider the Sun a reliable news source but as he is appearing as an interviewee in these articles presumably he would ask for these references to be corrected if they were not true. SEe e.g. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24927411/iran-soldiers-killed-israel-syria/, https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24883005/hamas-final-stand-south-gaza-israel-ceasefire/. Tomatoesarefruit (talk) 17:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@Kathleen's bike - please stop deleting all references to this organisation (UKAWIS). You keep claiming these are not allowed because they relate to a restricted topic. They do not relate to the conflict, they relate to subject's role on a UK registered charity board. Why are you preventing this from being stated? Please give a proper explanation of the problem or stop deleting. Tomatoesarefruit (talk) 18:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I am 100% entitled to reverse an edit which you are not permitted to make, and that you are not allowed to make this edit has been repeatedly explained to you. Kathleen's bike (talk) 18:40, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

You have not given a single reason why this edit is related to a contentious topic, unless your claim is that anything mentioning Israel is contentious per se. You clearly have a very specific reason for wanting to prevent any reference to this charity appearing on this page, but don’t want to say why. Really shocked at the bias being promoted here. 81.100.24.61 (talk) 18:48, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Considerimg you said Addition is not about the Israel-Palestine conflict in relation to an addition containing the text "when citing Kemp on issues relating to the conflict in Israel-Palestine" I would suggest your perspective is completely inaccurate. Kathleen's bike (talk) 08:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Which is why I amended additions repeated times in response to the various concerns you raised. The most recent edit I made had literally no reference whatsoever to the conflict and you have not explained what was problematic about it. You just said ‘you can’t make that edit’ without any attempt to address the substance of the issue and deleted everything. You also undid revisions I made to remove the subject’s full birth date from the entry, as per Wikipedia policy. It should not be there as it facilitates ID theft. You didn’t give a reason for undoing that either, which indicates your lack of perspective - you just automatically delete everything I add. An independent editor needs to review this whole issue. Tomatoesarefruit (talk) 18:55, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Tomatoesarefruit That would be me then. As an ex-Arbitrator I think I have a good grasp of this topic area and your posts here about and you edits are violations. Doug Weller talk 08:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)