Talk:Rhys ap Rhydderch

Propose Addition of Iestyn ap Llawrodd as Grandfather

The earliest attribution of Owain ap Hywel Da as grandfather of the subject is the Perrot Pedigree from Lewys Dwnn's 1588 Visitation of Wales. S.R.Meyrick's translation of it reads "Syr Stephen Perott, the first Norman settler in Pembrokeshire, married Eleynor, daughter and co-heir of Meirchion ap Rhys, ap Rydderch, ap Jestyn, ap Gwrgao, ap Hywel Dda, from which Jestyn this place received its name." This descent appears in other contemporary pedigrees and has proved consistently problematic to adapt to known dates. A recent article seeks to reconcile the conflicting primary sources as found most recently in P. C. Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies AD 300 - 1400" (1972) + Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies AD 300 - 1400" (1972).

The Ancient Wales Studies thesis TWO FAMILIES HEADED BY A RHYDDERCH AP IESTYN D. Wolcott proposes Rhys ap Rhydderch's father Rhydderch ap Iestyn is maternally descended from Owain ap Hywel Dda as his son-in-law not paternally as his son.

"Rhys ap Rydderch was a man of Iestynton (later called Eastington) in Dyfed who ruled as interim king of Deheubarth 1023-1033. No early sources name the father of that Iestyn, but modern writers wrongly call him "ap Owain ap Hywel Dda", But no early sources mention any such son of Owain ap Hywel Dda. My solution to the problem is to identify the Iestyn in question as a son-in-law of Owain ap Hywel Dda; he would never have been named an interim king unless he was, at minimum, a first-cousin of an under-age son of Owain."

Rhys ap Rhydderch's grandfather is on this account Iestyn ap Llawrodd son of Llawrodd ap Seisyll (abt. 910)

Support for the analysis is cited in Brut Ieuan Brechfa & Brut y Tywysogyon for the years 720 to 1079 in translation below - the recited events quoted actually ranged from the year 1033 to 1042 (in revised form) and none of the men mentioned were from the family of the Rhydderch ap Iestyn of Gwent.

"1080 was the age of Christ when Owain246 ab Einion ravaged the kingdom of Maredudd ab Owain, namely Dyfed and Ceredigion, and at that time there was great hunger in the territory of Maredudd, and there was a battle between the sons of Meurig and Maredudd near Llangwm and the sons of Meurig prevailed against Maredudd, and then Tewdwr ab Einion ab Owain ap Hywel Dda ap Cadell was killed.

1100 was the age of Christ when Llywelyn ap Seisyll came to govern Dyfed, and Hywel ap Seisyll was the supreme and foremost King of Gwynedd and King of all the Britons, and in his time the Britons had great power, and then war grew between Hywel ap Seisyll and his kin, and the Irish came across to Wales, and there was a battle in Glan Gwili, and there Llywelyn ap Seisyll was killed, and Rhydderch ab Iestyn came to govern the south, and then Cynan ap Seisyll was killed."

B.Guy, ‘Brut Ieuan Brechfa’, The Chronicles of Medieval Wales (Brepols 2020), pp417—419

Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 11:44, 23 June 2024 (UTC)