Talk:Revenue stamp

Sources needed

This article needs some sources, especially for statements like revenue stamps "are often made from the same type of paper as banknotes". I haven't seen any such revenue stamps. Ecphora (talk) 03:06, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Interwiki links

Hello :-)

i am writing on the issue of some of the cross-links between Rus, Bulg and Eng. This is a continuation from the russian discussion page of this article.

I have been following the discussion on that page, and i want you to know that from what i think i understand :-) that i agree with you

I agreed with Michael Romanov on the issue of cross-referencing between bg:banderol and en:Revenue stamp back in June 2008, so have not touched your changes since that discussion.

The other day i created the article bg:gerbova marka and linked it to en:revenue stamp; i then linked the EN article to BOTH ru:gerbovaya and ru:fiskalnaya marka, since the word in english makes no distinction between the two, as far as i could see (if i am wrong, please correct me!).

Then i created the bg:гербов налог article and linked it to Stamp duty, and i saw that Nickpo also linked it to ru:Гербовый сбор.

i am now considering creating an article in the en WP called Revenue stamp (tobacco and alcohol), since this is a separate category which, although does not appear to exist in UK/US legislation, exists in almost every other country i can think of, and it will at least sort out in the correct way all the interwiki links. (however, it appears that there is a new UK law and these stamps are now starting to come in - see here and here - they have been in use for a couple of years now on all alcohols (they are pink-red in colour) so it is a necessary article.

what do you think?

one question: what is the legal difference between Fiskalnaya and Gerbovaya marki and are they both equivalent to Revenue stamp? BigSteve (talk) 13:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

First of all, the prehistory of this discussion can be seen here.

To my regret, I have no other arguments to say here in addition to those I said in the previous discussion. Since that discussion, the article Excise and its section Excise#Excise Stamps have undergone dramatic changes. At first, Psiphiorg excised the word "Excise" in the section name "Excise Stamps". Then, an anonymous user 96.26.198.82 removed the section name "Stamps" at all. And we now don't have any traces of a term excise stamps in that article. So, my guess is that you, dear BigSteve, should create an article in the en WP called Excise stamp, not Revenue stamp (tobacco and alcohol). And I will try to explain below why.

In the article Revenue stamp, Stan Shebs wrote: "There are a great many kinds of revenue stamps in the world, and it is likely that some are still uncataloged." This is a beginning of all our problems with revenue stamps. We need a reliable classification described in a reliable source(s). Do you know any? At this moment, only three web sites come to my mind:

• International Society for collectors of Worldwide Revenue Stamps and Documents
• American Revenue Association
• State Revenue Society

I was unable to locate any classification on these sites. The Revenue Society of Great Britain has also this page where numerous revenue stamp types are mentioned in the Index to Volumes, and there is also the Books—Reviews and Library List where you can see some interesting titles like Collecting & Displaying Revenues, Akerman, 1995. But I don't have any access to any of those titles, so I cannot verify whether they provide any classification. The Forbin's Catalogue de Timbres-Fiscaux, last published in 1915, is available for a fee online, and it might contain some sort of classification but I did not try it.

The only place I know that contains the classification is the Russian site Non-postal Stamps. Revenue stamps are listed in there under numbers 1.1 to 1.12.8. We also have the access to a similar classification published in the Russian journal Filatelia. According to that classification, revenue stamps (or fiscal stamps) are an uppermost class of non-postal stamps (but sometimes they could be used for postage) that embraces various kinds of stamps and labels that are used to collect various taxes and official fees. The ru:fiskalnaya marka is, therefore, similar to Revenue stamp as a name of the general class. The ru:gerbovaya marka, and by analogy the bg:gerbova marka, is a subclass or a subcategory of fiscal stamps, that is, of revenue stamps, and they are used only to collect stamp duty, or a tax levied on official documents. In Russian, this tax is called gerbovyi sbor; hence, the stamp name ru:gerbovaya marka, and it should be similar in Bulgarian. Excise stamp, that is, ru:aktsiznaya marka and bg:banderol, is another subclass of revenue stamps. And so on, and so on.

In Russian Wiki, we started creating separate articles for all subclasses of revenue stamps. In English Wiki, there is only one general article for the uppermost class Revenue stamp. This is why we have all these problems when in other Wikis people create articles for separate subclasses and don't know where to link them in English WP using interwiki. The only solution I can suggest now for BigSteve is to link the Bulgarian articles for subclasses to the appropriate Russian articles and wait until appropriate English articles are written. With kindest regards, --Michael Romanov (talk) 02:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Pro. Nickpo (talk) 06:33, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow, you definitely have done your homework, Mich :-)

I will have a look at those pages you have linked to one by one. I think you are right about creating the article Excise stamp and define it as a subcategory of revenue stamp. i shall also see if it will be appropriate to add some of the links you have given above as references to the Rev.stamp article and do so. Thanks for the explanation on Fiscal/Gerbov stamps (unfortunately there seems to be no eng. equivalent to the specific type of stamp for "Gerbovaya marka", literally translated it would be "coat-of-arms stamp", and as far as what it is used for it would be translated as something like "document tax stamp", but i know not how an article can be done to reflect this, eg. Revenue stamp (documents) or Revenue stamp (stamp duty)? since i am unsure, i will leave it for someone else for the minute and concentrate on Excise stamp for tobacco and alcohol, tho it will take me a while to properly formulate the article - your kind help will be appreciated!)

anyway, i'll see what i can do, and we'll continue to collaborate. BigSteve (talk) 13:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Steve, for your understanding and cooperation. I think you are right in intending to create Excise stamp. As to an English article for the ru:gerbovaya marka, its name can be seen in a link you already provided above, see UK Duty Stamps Scheme. The appropriate stamp is called over there simply Duty stamp, though currently it is a redirect to Revenue stamp. So, this should be the name of the English article, in my opinion, if somebody wants to create it instead of the redirect page. Meanwhile, I added all the links we have found during this discussion and made some other cosmetic edits in Revenue stamp. Hopefully, Stan Shebs is still watching this article he created, so he might comment on these issues, too. Best regards, --Michael Romanov (talk) 19:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC) And, by the way, many thanks for understanding Russian talk pages. :)

I'm glad we are getting this subject sorted out little by little. Just one technical point - i think the redirect from Duty stamp to Revenue stamp is more or less correct and, strange though it may seem (and the English language is interesting!), a "duty stamp" is not simply the stamp for "stamp duty" but really any kind of Tax stamp - the three phrases in this case are synonymous...therefore a "duty stamp" is not necessarily a "gerbovaya marka", but the name for any stamp used for duties/revenue (and the link to the UK Duty Stamps Scheme demonstrates this, as the webpage specifically discusses alcohol excise stamps); meanwhile, "stamp duty" is the official name for the taxes/"duty levied on the legal recognition of certain documents" (OED) or, more specifically, for the actions that these documents represent (ie. inheritance, land acquisition etc). As for something like a legal document such as a marriage certificate, etc, which would physically require a stamp in many countries - i don't know what word would describe that stamp: it's weird, i know, but there appears to be no exclusive english word that refers only to the stamps used in stamp duty, and in fact as far as i can see such stamps aren't even used any more in the UK, but mostly in historical contexts (see here, here and here - no mention of stamps is made at all, just how to pay the duties by electronic means etc...). someone will have to consult someone in taxation law to be sure, but as far as i can see something like Tax stamp (stamp duty), redirecting to Tax stamp (documents), or vice-versa, would be the best way to deal with the issue??? BigSteve (talk) 14:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If you are still unsure about the English terminology, we need to consult with English-speaking native specialists that have expertise in both taxation law and revenue stamp classification. Sorry, I am not the one. Try post your question on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philately. Kind regards, --Michael Romanov (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe this will help. As I understand it, the terms "revenue stamp" and "fiscal stamp" are synonymous. I think the term "duty stamp" is pretty rare, at least in the United States. There seem to be two general sub-categories of revenue stamps: The first is a "documentary stamp" which typically is attached to a legal document (deed, bond, stock transfer, etc.) to show that a tax has been paid. The second is a "proprietary stamp" , which is attached to an object or product that is subject to tax such as playing cards, tobacco or liquor. These terms are so defined in R. Scott Carleton, The International Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Philately, and are also used in Scott's Specialized US Catalog. I don't see any other categories used in Forbin, Catalogue de Timbres-Fiscaux, at least for US revenues. I'm not sure, however, that all revenue stamps can neatly fit into these categories. Some US revenues, for example, could be used either on documents or products. Ecphora (talk) 23:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for an essential comment on US revenues that should be reflected in the article. On the other hand, we already have the {{globalize}} template in that article, and I think we have to follow that suggestion. Cheers, --Michael Romanov (talk) 06:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, thanks, Ecphora, it definitely will help, and despite the globalize thing the info can certainly be mentioned in a subcategory on the US within either this article or a future "documentary stamp" article once the references are found. I will also post the query on the Philately/Economics portals as per your suggestion, Mich. BigSteve (talk) 13:17, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

ps. i am considering re-adding the link to bg:gerbova marka to this article for the following reason: i have been unable to find any generic name in the BG Lang that includes all types of revenue stamps, and the only article name i can think of for a BG article equivalent to this one would be something crude-sounding like danachni tsenni knigi ("taxation securities") which would be incorrect and un-encyclopedic. unfortunately there is no Bulgarian WikiProject on any related subject where i can discuss this... _{(bg portals; bg projects)} BigSteve (talk) 16:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess the Bulgarian term for a generic name is "таксова марка". If you live in Bulgaria or have contacts over there, you may want to ask them to clarify what the correct generic term is. Cheers, --Michael Romanov (talk) 18:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

It might be, i'll have to verify with someone. the google searches i've done for this are inconclusive, they seem to refer mostly to customs/passport/transit stamps, and none appear to refer to excise, so it seems that "taksova marka" is also a sub-category. BigSteve (talk) 14:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Names for document stamps

The suggested question has been asked on the WikiProject pages for Economics, Taxation, Finance and Philately, and users have been invited to provide their answers here - kindly awaiting your replies! BigSteve (talk) 13:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

confused

I don't get how the stamps are used to collect taxes. Are they placed directly onto the products and paid at time of purchase? Please answer in the article as well as here. --Jeiki Rebirth (talk) 02:29, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Basically, you have to buy the stamp from the government (or tax collecting body) and place it on the item in order for your licence to be valid, your document to be admissable in court, your packet of cigarettes to be legal to be sold etc. Since the stamps cost the government almost nothing to make and they keep the money, that amounts to a tax. I greatly simplify but that is the idea. This is mentioned in the History section but may need expanding upon. Maidonian (talk) 05:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be a good idea if what you just said was incluided in the article.190.51.80.124 (talk) 23:01, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I gave it a whirl. Stan (talk) 13:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Postage stamps

It seems like postage stamps are a kind of revenue stamp used to tax mail. Are postage stamps considered a type of revenue stamp? If not, why not? 138.16.18.24 (talk) 01:02, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Revenue stamp/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

==WP Tax Class== Start class bec it needs expansion and more references. Good use of graphics though so with expansion this article would definitely have potential to go much higher.EECavazos 17:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC) ==WP Tax Priority== Low priority because the article is on the stamp rather than the tax itself.EECavazos 17:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 04:14, 30 April 2016 (UTC)