Talk:Cost of electricity by source

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Does the "global studies" section make any sense now natural gas is no longer fungible?

I mean now there is no longer a world market for gas, electricity from a gas-fired power plant in China will presumably cost a lot less as they buy cheap Russian gas? So there is no global cost of electricity from gas any more. So what benefit does the reader get from the section? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:03, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is still a world market for gas. Price differential between indexes have always existed, for example between Brent crude and WTI crude oil price indexes (see image). These generally occur when there are constraints in transport capacity, but also due to political reasons as in the current differential between Russian gas and other sources. Let's avoid WP:RECENT and WP:OR --Ita140188 (talk) 11:07, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The difference in price of electricity by region is far larger than by source - regardless of whether it is solar, wind, hydro, nuclear or fossil. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe there is a world market for gas now. Of course China pays less for Russian gas - they are not stupid. Chidgk1 (talk) 11:12, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.iea.org/reports/gas-market-report-q1-2022 Moxy-

16:46, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That report title seems misleading - I cannot find the date but it seems to have been published before the world changed on 24 February 2022. So using that report would be like using an August 2001 report in October 2001, or using a July 1989 report in December 1989. Chidgk1 (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Price of Russian gas to Europe and China "dramatically different" https://www.wionews.com/world/leading-energy-analyst-says-russian-gas-sales-to-china-will-not-make-up-for-loss-of-european-markets-465956 Chidgk1 (talk) 18:28, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again, nothing new, commodity prices indexes have often substantially diverged before for different reasons. It's just that people weren't paying this much attention. --Ita140188 (talk) 07:12, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did not say it was new - I know gas was non-fungible before it was fungible. But it does not change between fungible and non-fungible often. This 2022 geopolitical change is as significant as the last in 2001 and the one before that in 1989. The world in 2023 will not be back like it was in 2021. Gas will not go back to being fungible again in the next few years. Because even under a new leader Europe will no longer trust Russia. Chidgk1 (talk) 16:26, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does French nuclear really still load follow?

If so why don't they just run at max safe capacity and sell to neighbours, such as Germany? Chidgk1 (talk) 11:09, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That possibility depends on grid transmission constraints and real-time costs. Germany sometimes even has negative prices, because of high penetration of renewables. In those times, "selling" to Germany would actually mean having to pay. In Europe market prices mostly determine the level of production for power plants, after accounting for physical constraints such as transmission and ramp rates. --Ita140188 (talk) 13:26, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Even from a technological standpoint, having "too much" electricity is almost as bad as having "too little". And if you have a feed-in tariff system, you can't just reduce production in other energy sources. French nuclear power plants have come with the requirement for load following capability well in excess of that usually found in nuclear power plants since at least the 1980s and EU regulations for new builds are even more ambitious on this front - meaning the EPR can scale up and down far faster than coal power plants or comparable nuclear reactors or earlier generations or other suppliers... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:52, 29 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cost Factors: Capital Costs

In the chart: Battery Storage (not power) is measured in $/kWh. That being the amount of energy that a battery can store. Tyrerj (talk) 06:43, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The graph under Global Studies has been not rendering since April.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source#Global_studies

“Graphs are temporarily unavailable due to technical issues.”

The graph starts:

{{Graph:Chart
 | width=600
 | height=200
 | xAxisTitle=Generation technology
 | yAxisTitle=LCOE [$ per MWh]

I do not know how to troubleshoot it. But the graph is still in the page code, so it should probably be fixed. Dahemac (talk) 03:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Dahemac: unfortunately the graph extension responsible for rendering that chart has been disabled since April (Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_205#Graph_extension_disabled_per_immediate_effect). It seems the extension will be re-enabled relatively soon, but there is no clear timeline for it. I would keep the code there for now. Ita140188 (talk) 07:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is a fairly important graph. Is it a good idea to insert a PNG of it in as a placeholder? I have the PNG. Dahemac (talk) 15:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Section: Bank of America (2023), LFSCOE

I suggest removing this section. The LFSCOE are very new (2022) and controversial. The numbers come up with are dramatically different from the LCOE. They are based on controversial assumptions. I know they are used to justify Nuclear energy. Mungbean (talk) 16:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]