Talk:Reinforcement/Archive 1

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 September 2020 and 23 November 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Phdclassproject.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Original comments

I'm an educated person, but I find this article virtually incomprehensible. Is there any way to make it clearer for the layperson, Wikipedia's intended audience? I realize that experts will think that it's dumbed-down, but the article is not for the experts. AverageGuy 01:05, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Agreed, this is gobbledegook. We're not all sociology PHDs. BoneyMaloney 05:35, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

Is anyone willing to take a stab at simplifying this? If not, I'll try, but would rather leave it to someone more expert in the field. AverageGuy 02:37, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Step 1: Where the censored are the pictures? Step 2: I think you are done. 175.156.99.170 (talk) 12:32, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I'm gingerly giving it a shot. Incidentally, I think the technical-sounding definitions here are not quite right anyway and the references cited (medical dictionary & animal training site) are not authoritative in behavioral psychology. If no one screams, I'll offer some re-workings of various sections over the next few days. –User:Duldan 23 Jun 2005

No one screamed, so I simplified and expanded quite a bit more. If anyone can help with that hack-job table, please do. –Duldan 28 June 2005 20:49 (UTC)

I'll lend a hand in this, I'm a psychology student (put emphasis on first-year though)--Janarius 1 July 2005 03:42 (UTC)

I have added an image that shows the different response rate of between the schedules of reinforcement, but I made it from scratch and does not look professional at all. Someone make or get a better one. Oh, where do I need to simplify? I mean I understand all of this, but I don't know where's the problem.--Janarius 2 July 2005 03:46 (UTC)

Janarius, I like your image. It's sharp & clear. So nice-looking I figured it might be cribbed, at first glance. A few thoughts:

• The blue line is "FI" but I think you mean "FR"? If it is FR, it would characteristically be a sort of stair-step pattern with a plateau after each reinforcement.
• For the y-axis label "Cumulative number of responses" might be less ambiguous? (Amount of response could seem like how hard the rat hits the bar.)
• Could something say that each hatch mark is an occurrence of reinforcement? That could be said down in the caption.

I also like your additions re: gambling, the VI average, money, DRL, & DRA. I disagree with some other changes, but I'll comment on them later. I wanted to reinforce your image-making quickly. Oh, I agree: "Simplify" tag deleted. –Duldan 2 July 2005 22:30 (UTC)

Glad to be of service and I am very grateful for your observations over several of my mistakes. About Fixed ratio: Yes, I know... But then I'll have to explain why and the same about Fixed Interval. (sighs) --Janarius 3 July 2005 01:59 (UTC)

Well I updated my image. But, when I looked there was no change at all. I'll resubmit at a later time. Anyway, Duldan, I followed your recommendations and made the appropriate corrections and also my explanations over why FR is stair-cased and why FI is like that. But, I do need some help for FI. So anyone in psych. please help.--Janarius 5 July 2005 03:41 (UTC)

ratio strain

Concerning about ratio strain, I believe the effects were an increase in length of time in post-reinforcement pauses. However, I could not immediately verify because I lended my learning book (Paul Chance, 2003) to a friend. --Janarius 15:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Quick Thanks

I normally wouldn't do this, but I just wanted to thank the authors of this piece for their clear understanding and articulation. Psychology is something I've studied a great deal of, and it's always frustrating to see this rampant misuse of "positive/negative reinforcement." --AWF

Maybe we should refer psych students to wikipedia instead of our expensive textbooks. But i'm just fooling around.--Janarius 14:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

"The Punishers"

I removed the following section, "The Punishers." It's barely more than an outline of a possible section, it's full of meaningless punctuation (what do those three brackets mean?), and it was in addition put in the middle of another section. As they say at the bottom of the edit page, if you want to experiment, use the sandbox. Once it's complete we can then see if it adds anything to the article.

=== The Punishers ===

Punishment causes the rate of the subject's behavior or extinguish. Positive punishment is addition of something, negative is the removal of something. A dog barking will cease barking when the bark is paired with a positive punisher, i.e. an electric shock. Negaitve punishment is the subtraction of something.

• need example of negative punishment -- subtracting something causing a subject's behavior to decrease.

an example of negative punishment: Dog is jumping up on you (undesired behavior) when you are filling up his food bowl. You dump the food in the garbage when the dog jumps on you. (negative=take away or subtract) (punishment=makes a behavior less likely to occur in the future) so negative punishment in this case is take away the food which should lessen the jumping behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtva (talk • contribs) 01:49, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

{{{

• • • needs revision bad and good are not neutral ***

John FitzGerald 04:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The Reinforcers

And i removed this from "The Reinforcers":

Speaking colloquially, an aversive stimulus is something the animal finds "bad;" its removal is thus a "good" thing from the animal's point of view.

That isn't what an aversive stimulus is. I realize this is an attempt to make the ideas easier too understand, but one of the important points about reinforcement is that it does not require the invocation of mental states. I'm open to argument, though, which is why I preserved the passage here. John FitzGerald 04:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

In section 1.2, Secondary Reinforcers, there is this "sentence" at the end of the first paragraph:

reinforcers are given to the nedded as help the peaple needed of reinforcements can use them in any way seemed necesarry like sending them to the enemies to let the needed escape even at the cost of death

Would someone care to clarify this or, if need be, delete it? Thanks. Jeff --96.251.79.166 (talk) 23:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The authors of this section, and related ones really need to draft a more precise explanation of Postive and Negative reinforcement in the context of Positive and Negative Punishment. Methinks part of the problem with novice and hobby Psych. Students is not only the ambiguity with the use of the adjectives "positive" and "negative" but the burden of having to criticize half a century of this ambiguity in the terminology.

For example, if "Positive" reinforcement requires the application of a stimuli in response to a behaviour (Instrumental conditioning) then that stimuli can be rewarding or aversive. Conversely, although some earlier texts (eq.Psychology Silverman, Robert E. Prentice-Hall 1970) distinquish between aversive stimuli used for Negative reinforcement and Punishment, if the behaviour is altered when the punishment stimuli ceases or the anticipation that the punishment will cease, then it is crudely representative of a "negative" reinforcement..... non?

Some readers may have heard of the colloquial anecdote: "....It's like the guy standing on the street banging his head against a brick wall over and over again. When asked why he was doing it, he replied: 'I don't know, but it sure feels good when I stop......"[1](for example)

Whatever, my interest in this topic is the concept of random aversive effects presenting themselves as functional stimuli. The most extreme cases bordering on mild Post Trauma Stress.

For example, issuing a traffic fine for dangerous driving practices (a form of applied aversive punishment (?)) as compared to a subject being invoved in a vehicle collision (consequential (defacto) aversive punishment (?)). The resulting trauma may(?) lead to improved driving practices even if the subject was not at fault. In this case the "punishment" improves behaviour - better defensive driving - even though the previous behaviour was adequate. Nevertheless, the improved behaviour may be little consolation for the other less desirable post trauma effects.

As a postscript, an analgous ambiguity in terminology exists when describing Homeostasis and Control Systems in general. Positive feedback leads to unstable control systems, negative feedback provides the usually most desirable stable systems.

The longer a science takes to reconfigure it's basic terminology, the more difficult the task.

Pete318 (talk) 18:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Examples

This article could really do with some laymans examples. Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, etc.

An example of positive reinforcement could be something as simple as saying "good job" after completion of a task. When offering positive reinforcement in elementary and secondary school, it is important to praise effort not accomplishment.

An example of negative reinforcement would be paying a fine or losing a privilege. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.118.85.55 (talk) 19:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

At least Example 2 of Negative Reinforcement is not Negative Reinforcement but Positive Punishment.

Negative Reinforcement means the reinforcement by removing a noxious stimulus when the desired behaviour is performed. Positively applying a noxious stimulus when an un-desired behaviour is performed is positive punishment.

If the noxious stimulus only comes after the behaviour, that's positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. 213.127.41.135 (talk) 13:48, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Re: Examples

Your example of positive reinforcement is not detailed enough for an education classroom. You cannot just tell a child "Good job" for completing a task. You have to elaborate on that task. For example, if a child completes a math problem that they had been struggling with you should say, "Great job! I can see that you understand how to solve these types of problems>" This praises the child and encourages them to keep trying when they find something difficult.

A negative reinforcement would involve the removing of an aversive stimulus. For instance, a child continually gets sick right before they have to take a test and is sent home. This behavior allows the student to get out of taking the test, so getting sick is maintained through negative reinforcement. This is negative reinforcement because the test disappears and the behavior repeats.98.219.211.141 (talk) 18:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe this is not the right place, but I'm not sure where else the 'right' place would be. A different type of 'negative reinforcement' that I have not seen discussed (and perhaps that's why it's not here) is delivering a 'punishment' when the subject gives an incorrect response to a training exercise. I'm not sure that 'punishment' is a valid use of the word in this context in that it is not intended to punish in the conventional sense, but to trigger an adverse emotion to the original emotion that generated the incorrect response. For example, near the beginning of the movie 'Ghost Busters', 'Dr Venkman' is administering a psychic evaluation test to two subjects. Although in this scene he is clearly partial to the female (and even punishes the male when in fact he got one right), the point of the test is this: when the test subject 'feels' the value of the card and responds, they might be rewarded if correct, or receive a punishment (electric shock) when incorrect. The shock is not to simply punish, but to 'train' the subject that the emotion they 'felt' when they chose incorrectly was wrong, and by not being shocked, or by receiving a positive reinforcement when correct, to help the subjects recognize the 'correct' emotions. I am by no means a scholar in these topics, I am simply fascinated by the works of people like Skinner and Milgram, so I don't know how to explain it in technical terms, or even in layman's terms that make sense on this page. Guy.cooper (talk) 16:34, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

What about "intermittent reinforcement"?

Article is not well-written and gives no references or citations. KarenAnn 15:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

See this diff: [2], which i have just reverted. Circeus 15:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Response rate

I'm taking out the statement at the beginning of Types of reinforcement recently changed without explanation by an anonymous user to assert that reinforcement may only increase response rate. I think I know what was meant, but if I'm right that only means that the initial definition in the article is superior to the one which appears in Types of reinforcement and there's no point confusing people. Anyway, if people want to restore the statement they're going to have to provide more detail about exactly what they mean. As the statement stands now, it's wrong. John FitzGerald 14:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me now, I moved the types of reinforcement section so it's right after the definition. The gap between the definition and the types caused by the schedules made it hard to remember the counterintuitive definition of reinforcement. Plus, I'd say types of reinforcement is more important than schedule and should come first. WLU 15:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

punishment

I'm not sure why punishment is in this article, it should be in punishment. I'm moving it. WLU 13:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I surmised the reason is because there wasn't much info that makes punishment have its own page, but the added info in the new article is good work. Also, I'm going to copy-paste some text from punishment (psychology) into reinforcement in order to briefly explain positive and negative punishment just to keep the context intact.--Janarius 15:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the context about reinforcement isn't about reward, but more like behavioural change.--Janarius 15:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Premack principle

The Premack principle has its own page, but as a specific case of reinforcement, I think it's better off as a heading on this page. Any thoughts? WLU 19:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are right. It's an aspect of reinforcement and there's no good reason for it to have its own page. John FitzGerald 14:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess so, well it is a stub so why not. And merge reinforcement hierarchy too.--Janarius 15:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Since the premack principle is regarded as the most widely accepted in the psychological community today, it merits a separate page.

Since it can never be expanded beyond stub, it should remain part of the R+ page. WLU 17:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with John FitzGerald in the sense that the Premack principle pertains specifically to reinforcement, and that it therefore should remain part of the original reinforcement page. Although I do feel, however, that the example could better, with a real would connection. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.61.141.246 (talk) 00:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the latter comment as well as relating it to a real-life example (IvanaPorcic (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2017 (UTC))

VR schedule

Variable ratio schedules are not most immune to extinction if you consider the response unit hypothesis of the partial reinforcement effect. Under that hypothesis, continuous reinforcement is the most immune to extinction. Also, it will vary dramatically by the emotional aspect of behavior in humans. Consider, for instance, situations where variable ratio schedules and variable interval schedules are hard to differentiate (e.g., in a situation of an abused spouse). I don't feel like going into it or writing up the whole thing, but I would say that such a broad statement about extinction and variable ratio schedules is only "potentially supported" by the literature at best and completely inaccurate at worst.24.27.140.178 22:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)BubbaLeeJohnson

As far as I understand, variable reinforcement are the most immune to extinction, and continuous reinforcement is the least. You need a source for that bub. WLU 12:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

No, Bubba is right. The response unit hypothesis makes a very good argument for continuous reinforcement being more immune to extinction. The hypotheis is a specific data organization and behavioral operationalization. I will write more on it with citations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.93.177.112 (talk) 21:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

comments for the newly merged section

I merged the article schedule of reinforcement into the section schedules of reinforcement.Any comments for the newly merged section for schedules of reinforcement?--Janarius 18:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Overall looks good, the longer paragraphs could use some breaking up perhaps, there's some minor wording issues, and the section could do with some wikilinks, but a very solid start I think. I'll have a gander in the coming days if I think of it. --WLU 19:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I re-worked the SoR section, trying to shorten and clarify it as much as possible. Also added two tags about merging in two orphan articles - Concurrent schedules of reinforcement and Superimposed schedules of reinforcement --WLU 17:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Schedules of reinforcement with the other two articles would become long enough to be a separate article now. BTW, I agree with another user about merging reinforcement hierarchy. Kpmiyapuram 13:13, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Change of definition

I started with a change of the definition. I "cited" but will add the cite to the reference section soon. If I didn't "wiki" it right, I apologize. I just was having students rely on the page, and some of the material was a bit misleading. --Nmfbd 17:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There are some links on your talk page to help with formatting. You may also want to read WP:LEAD before doing too much more - the lead section is very long right now, and go into too much detail. The information you added looks good, but it should probably be in its own section with its own heading. WLU 18:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed section

I removed the 'superstitious behavior' section - it was empty, and should not remain on the page until it can be filled with at least some text. Also keep in mind the need to avoid original research; such a section, though obvious to anyone with knowledge of behaviorism, would need to be referenced. I also removed a redlink - it should not be included in the article as a wikilink until the page exists. Though it could be argued that it should be on the page, as long as it merits its own page and is needed. Minor points of research pursued by a minority of academics should not be included, they should be mainstream topics. Also, please do not add text like 'coming soon' or 'will be added'. If desired, use a talk page sub page to compose the text. Sub pages are meant for exactly these purposes. WLU 15:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I apologize if my Wiki-skills are not up to par. My main reason for changing the page was because, despite my insistence not to do so, my students sometimes use Wikipedia as a back-up reference. When I looked at the reinforcement page, there were several statements that were completely inaccurate, though notably minor. My goal was and is (there are other sections that need changes) to make the material accurate. Then I was going to go back, reword information, move to the "wiki tone" and add citations, etc. I still will make some changes on this page and have some on other pages. I'll try to keep the tone the same, but I will have to cite later. I will also try to find citations for some of the schedule stuff that other people have contributed. Anyway, sorry if stuff I'm adding causes formatting inconveniences. I think Wiki can be an excellent resource for students, so I figured I'd add to the information. --Nmfbd 17:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

No apologies necessary, everyone's got something to learn. I still haven't figured out how to make my user page pretty. To do a really good job adding to articles, you usually have to spend a fair amount of time at the outset reading up on policies and the Manual of Style. Again, if you are coming from a teaching perspective, remember that wikipedia is a reference manual, not a textbook (see here, point 6). You get the hang of it after a while.

Incidentally, wikipedia is a terrible source for students and should never, ever be in a references section. Or if it is, they should include a weblink to the specific version they are citing. Lazy buggers.

As a final note, dedicated conributors who are sincere about improving the pages are never inconveniences. Welcome! It's frustrating here. You eventually learn to hate anonymous IP addresses. I do notice that the vandalism has died down a lot since the beginning of exam time. WLU 17:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Moving contingent/contiguous stuff

This was moved under "other reinforcement terms." I don't think they should be there. They aren't reinforcement terms, and they really are ways to strengthen reinforcement likelihood. The original article that I decided to edit included contingency and contiguity as part of the definition of reinforcement--they aren't, but they are important in reinforcement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nmfbd (talk • contribs)

I moved them 'cause in my mind the article should read like a newspaper - most general and important information first, with specifics coming later. Those two terms are extra info about reinforcement, not the main event, so make more sense to me elsewhere than the definition section. Since they are important to reinforcement, they should definitely be in the article, but not in the main section.

I'm also of the opinion that the punishment stuff should be taken out - I'm not sure why it's even in the article considering there's a main page about it. WLU 17:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was wondering about the punishment stuff. The only reason I could see it justified is that negative reinforcement and punishment generally occur together, but I was wondering why it was there. --Nmfbd 17:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The terms contingency and contiguity are covered in operant conditioning, but they are relevant to reinforcement and it would be logical to include them here. However, I don't know what to include or exclude or what belong in here or in operant conditioning article.--Janarius 23:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The terms still are on this page, just moved down a bit. --Nmfbd 07:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Meaning Part 2

"Reinforcement is the behavioral operationalization of the effects of reinforcers" doesn't strike me as the introduction to the topic which is going to be the most useful to the person unacquainted with the topic. I'm open to argument about its use, though, which is why i haven't changed it. i am goig to go back and take out "In terms of behaviorism" from the same paragraph. Response and organism are scarcely terms restricted to behaviorism, and it is not necessary to understand any special meaning they may have in behaviorism to understand the rest of the sentence. However, beginning the sentence with "In terms of behaviorism" makes it seem to imply that you do require some special knowledge. John FitzGerald 14:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

i also changed the sentence to clarify that it is the strength of the response that is reinforced, although on reflection i have to admit that may have been an act of supererogation —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John FitzGerald (talk • contribs) 14:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

And isn't the first sentence just saying "Reinforcement is the result of using reinforcers"?. John FitzGerald 20:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Ya, but reinforcement is a more useful term than reinforcer, so I'd leave it as is. It's clunky, but eh. WLU 01:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the connection, but then I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Anyway, I don't agree that reinforcement is more useful than reinforcer, so I'm unpersuaded regardless of whether there's a connection or not. But perhaps further explanation of your point would be helpful. John FitzGerald 16:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

In order to define reinforcement (a concept), one must refer to a reinforcer (a thing; an action or object), so by necessity the term 'reinforcer' must be present in the article. However, beyond that initial required definition, the concept of 'reinforcement' is much handier than continually referring to 'reinforcers'; i.e. schedules of reinforcement rather than schedules of reinforcers. The two are incestuous and counterintuitive, and makes for a messy intro, but IMO it's unavoidable (though feel free to disagree!). Am I clearer? I can't really think of a better way to explain either my point or the article, but questions are always helpful. WLU 20:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, my ideas of what's useful have been continually disparaged since I started this article (see above, includig the post in which someone dared to compare me to a...sociologist!), so perhaps I don't have a clue about this issue. I see your point, but I still don't see how saying reinforcement is the effect of reinforcers is informative. Well, a positve approach is sometimes the best, so I'll see if I can come up with a proposal for a new opening. John FitzGerald 15:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Best thing is always to be bold, then clean up the mess when people scream :) I say have a kick at the can, and any regular contributors will doubtless have something to say. The worst that a sincere editor acting in good faith can do is make a factual error, and that'll be corrected. Best case scenario is you improve the page for a layreader, so have at it. WLU 20:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I decided that in conformity with Wikipedia policy we should use the conventional definition of reinforcement, so I have restored it. This behavioral operationalization stuff smacks of OR to me. I also took out several purported examples of reinforcement and punishment which were not in fact examples, at least not without further explanation. If I had more time I'd go at this article with a scythe; there have been too many edits by people who don't seem to understand the concept. John FitzGerald 17:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)