Talk:Regional Federal Courts

Map

Here's a map with the five regions. This article would benefit from a map like that. I have no idea why the Federal District is colored differently from the rest of the First Region. A.Z. 20:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The First Region does include the Federal District, according to [this site]. A.Z. 04:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed name change to Federal Regional Courts

What should the name of this article be? Should it be Regional Federal Courts, or Federal Regional Courts (or something else)? The name in Portuguese is pt:Tribunais Regionais Federais (singular:Tribunal Regional Federal).

This article has been named Regional Federal Courts since it was created by (now indeffed) user in 2007. The TRF is defined in the Brazilian Constitution in article 107 (Title IV), and in the English version of the Constitution released by the Chamber of Deputies of Brazil, it is called the "Federal Regional Courts" (section IV, p. 101). Both names appear on the web, with RFC (4,320) slightly over FRC (3,900), but that is too close to call, especially with the problems inherent in interpreting search engine tallies. In google scholar, we have 182 FRC and 123 RFC, with probably a higher validity to the comparison, both due to the difference, as well as the quality of sources. In books, if we compare FRC and RFC, the first page of results for each, shows 10 FRC to 7 RFC, and the second page shows 7 FRC to 4 RFC; from the 3rd page on, there are no bolded search terms in the result snippets.

Based on the official name in the English version of the Consititution, and the preponderance of results in books and scholarly articles, I believe the title should be changed to Federal Regional Courts. Mathglot (talk) 07:12, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 24 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved.

TompaDompa has proposed this move for a technical reason and has confirmed below that they have no opinion. The other two editors involved in the discussion now concur in opposing the move. There is therefore a consensus not to move. (non-admin closure) Havelock Jones (talk) 18:58, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

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Regional Federal Courts → Federal Regional Courts – Cleanup of Template:Disputed title, which is currently at WP:TfD. This was the proposed new title. TompaDompa (talk) 15:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 03:19, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

• Unsure change to Oppose (after discussion below). I can see your point, but I am still not sure. There is slightly different meaning in English word order. FRC implies the "court for a federal region", meaning that a "federal region" is a thing, whereas RFC implies a "federal court for a region". Is there such a thing as "federal region"? I mean, as a standalone term, in usage, without "court" attached? In that case I might comfortable with the change. But if not, then it is really a regional federal court and not the court of a federal region.
  A way to maybe clarify is too look up what related institutions are called, e.g. what is the term for the attached prosecutor's offices? A regional federal prosecutor or a prosecutor of the federal region? Walrasiad (talk) 06:12, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify, it's not my point. I just removed an instance of Template:Disputed title and started a proper WP:RM instead to resolve the issue. I have no opinion on this. TompaDompa (talk) 06:24, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
• Tend to Oppose. The system looks similar to the United States courts of appeals, and e.g. the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit would be akin to the Brazilian Federal Court for the First Region, which, according to English grammar rules, can be translated as the First Regional Federal Court. In other words, those are regional offices of the Federal Court. No such user (talk) 14:13, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Actually, the comparison to the US should lead to support, since it is called a "Federal District Court", and not a "District Federal Court", where a 'federal district' is defined as a thing-in-itself. That's why I'm looking for whether "federal region" is similarly separately defined in Brazil. (similarly the common term is "Federal Circuit Court" and "federal circuit") Walrasiad (talk) 14:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

There is a catch, though, that "federal regional" is not an adjectival form of "federal region". Let us assume that "federal region" is a thing; its court would be a "Federal Region Court" rather than "Federal Regional Court", wouldn't it? The only way to parse "Federal Regional Court" is that it's a regional court that's federal, and that does not make much sense. OTOH, "Regional Federal Court" can plausibly mean "regional branch of the Federal Court" (as intended here). No such user (talk) 15:03, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure adjectival form renders it moot. I am actually troubled of thinking of it as a 'regional' branch of 'the' Federal Court - as now that is treating the latter is a thing-in-itself. Which I am not sure it is. Certainly it is not in the US - there is no such thing as "the federal court"; there is a "federal judicial system" which a informal term to refer to a collection of multiple courts - federal district courts, federal circuit courts, supreme court, territorial courts, etc., but they are each separate and distinct courts, none is a 'branch' of the other. And I suspect that might be the intended meaning in Brazil.

A "regional court that is federal" does make sense, if its jurisdiction is federal law, not state law. In the US, federal district courts are limited judging cases of violations of federal law - that is limited to those laws defined in US Congressional statutes (thus cases are "US vs. John Doe"). Whereas everything else is violations of state law and tried in state courts (thus "New York vs. John Doe"). The state judicial system (which has its own court of appeals, supreme court, etc.) is entirely separate from the federal judicial system. Or put another way a "regional court that is federal" is different from a "regional court that is state" not by geography, but by quality, by what kind of cases their jurisdiction covers. Walrasiad (talk) 15:48, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I was not terribly precise (after all, I am not a lawyer), and it's not easy to be in this mishmash of English and Portuguese legal terminology; I did not mean "branch" in the narrow sense, but rather, "a regional instance of a court that belongs to the system of Federal courts of Brazil", which is confirmed by parallel existence of Regional Labor Courts and Regional Electoral Courts below the level of the Superior Labor Court and Superior Electoral Court. If anything, I'd hate to break the nice symmetry with those titles.
As for the title of this article, both "RFC" and "FRC" translations seem to be used "in the wild", but the latter seem to be affected by Portuguese phrasing. No such user (talk) 15:19, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Ah, ok. I see your point. Yes, given that it seems the sources go both ways, then I'd probably agree retaining symmetry would be better, and keeping RFC. Particularly as these other courts are not constrained by the same "federal region", but have regions of their own, it seems federal regions are not really things-in-themselves. I'd agree to keep it at RFC. Walrasiad (talk) 15:44, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.