This is an archive of past discussions about Regency of Algiers. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
i approve of moving the Cardinal Cisneros image up the page to the arrival of the Spanish
Hayreddin's consolidation
image needs to move left so it's not staring off the page.
(this is done) I need to find the palace of the master of horses in history, accidentally deleted it. I intended to move it to the administration section with the Admiralty house to break up the long grey block of text there.
(fixed) cannon image and treaty image still seem disproportionately long
does the multiimage template help?
I need to do other stuff for a few hours, but also, all the stuff about zellij could be summed up as "mosaic technique not individual tiles. Do I have that right?. Elinruby (talk) 00:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
ok ! Now if we could get some thoughts about the last question outstanding in "Tackling tiles" we could wrap that section up. Elinruby (talk) 03:17, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Zellij theory of everything
If zellij refers to the style of mosaic artwork, and since we are in the Architecture section specifically on walls rather than on for example inlaid wood, then I think the stuff in the Architecture section about how tiles are made slash imported maybe should go in Manufacturing instead.
Meanwhile, water infrastructure
I added the servant girl image as discussed above. I see the bordj image is there also. I am fine with that as long as we are confident that this bordj is associated with this pasha. Elinruby (talk) 04:27, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Image edit requests
can File:Banner of the dey of Algiers.jpg be brighter without turning washed out?
Brighten image in Military chiefs elective: Deylik period (1671–1830)
@Elinruby: I can send them to the Graphics lab and see what they say. I've started working on the images, before I start looking at 1.1.6. Some observations:
The cartographic maps of the place all fairly basic to non-existant I might be able find and upload proper cartographer maps. As the empire ran from 1516–1830 there should lots of public domain images, hopefully. Three or four good images showing the area every century, roughly, would be ideal, to show it changed.
Some images are in the wrong place, e.g. the coins at the top. Should they be in economy section.
I've moved some image blocks to the end of para, which is the default.
There is still no alt tags on these image and that is the first thing they will look at when image review is start. Accessibility is a big thing on Wikipedia. It won't without them.
Some of the descriptions are too big. It is a case of replace text with image and vice versa. See the WP:MOS on it. Having a huge caption may need a mention in the main paragraph. Try and keep the captions short, but not too short. The reader is expected to click on it, the image should open with a description. So every image should have a British or America English description with it. Hopefully.
I have written this comment really slowly and checked so it should be understandable, instead of the usual quick mess I leave. scope_creepTalk11:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
I typed a long answer and phone locked up. Basically, ok. Doing alts once images are final. French and Arabic captions should only be on the talk page. If not please flag them here.Elinruby (talk) 12:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
I thought that would happen. I'm glad that first map of algiers of 1575 is on there. If you could find three images, show it growing, over the period of its existance, it would be ideal. I notice that image show the island connected by a causeway which affirms that port build para in 1.1.5 scope_creepTalk14:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
More comments:
There is a lots of single image are not particularly close to para they belong to. I would like to centre them, but to centre single image, they look kind of odd. Is it possible to find other images, so if they are centred in a block below the paragraph, we can have a block of three to flesh it out, so its not so odd?
I notice somebody mixing properties. Its convention and good practice on Wikipedia to keep to properties together. So image1, caption1, alt1 and so on. Not dumping them here and there.. It won't pass FA if that is the case.
The ali bitchin and the foreign policy image are facing each other, failing mos:sandwich. If we addedcouple of images, which I began a search for, for ali bitching para, then they maybe it can centred and leave that foreign policy image where it is to again flesh it out and give it some body.
(using in Dutch Republic section) File:Michiel de Ruyter Admiraal Generaal Portret Hendrik Bary c1673.jpg
(Moved to be with cannon) Bordj Tamentfoust: don't we already have too much stuff in architecture. I liked this with the cannon, was it taken out because it's the wrong time frame maybe? I do think we could/need to say a little more about the fortification in some appropriate part of the article, wherever that is. Elinruby (talk) 03:39, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
I like the Maltese knights engraving.
There are too many images at the end of the Architecture section. Too many disparate images.
I also really think the dome deserves some more prominent location than the traffic jam down there.
I just posted some additional images of a cultural monument in Algiers, from Wiki Loves Africa, if that helps. Anyway...
I am unsure whether we are overwriting each other, or? Did somebody object to the serving woman at the fountain image? Elinruby (talk) 03:57, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Sorry for the serving woman at the fountain image, i thought that the other fountain i added was clearer, should have mentionned this in the talk page; my bad. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Yeah. Some images are being tentatively added, in other words for discussion, but I thought you said yes to that one. Not a big thing, at least now I know we aren't over-writing each other. There's a discussion to be had about that image but I will come back to this, not up for all the typing right now. Meanwhile I will put the bordj back. Elinruby (talk) 23:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for that De Ruyter image, i like it, and Burj Tamenfoust should be brought back with the Cannon. if you can do it, that'll be good. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:36, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Foreign policy
"legitimate" is linked Law of Nations which did not exist yet. I would put all the stuff about the legitimacy of jihad in in the historiography section, or at least make explicit reference to what you are refuting. I think our approach here should be that there were a lot of pirates, and here is the story of some of them. You don't need to justify them with the Law of Nations or anything else. They just were.
Kingdom of England
ref 138 (Matar); supports the attacks at the bottom of p.150. The outcome however, presumably on 151, is not part of the preview
160 same as 147, with or without page numbers is the question. Document is open-access OAP, great source with no page numbers. Check against this for further copy vio, although that section has had a detailed rewrite since I spotted this. Could do with another look though. Elinruby (talk) 03:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Kingdom of France section
there is a one-off mention of coral fishermen gaining security under a treaty. The idea of coral fishermen in a treaty is interesting but this needs to be explained. Were they getting shot? Is this a tariff for their economic security?Elinruby (talk) 23:31, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
coral fishermen are gone, so that takes care of that, I guess. Leaving section open as currently unsure whether all references were checked Elinruby (talk) 01:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC) it wasn't gone, I misread. However I found an explanation in the source and rewrote. Leaving this open to be checked. References seem good, but I want another look at the two for the terms of the agreement. Elinruby (talk) 00:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Music section
May as well document here what that Awareness organizations, since somebody will definitely question whether it is RS. Elinruby (talk) 07:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Nourerrahmane this one is for you. Just write down what the organization is that published this. It's in Arabic, so it has to be you. Pretty sure someone will question whether it is a reliable source.Elinruby (talk)
Wilson ref: either we're linking to the wrong Wilson or it,'s been repaginated or something. Cited page range is about Salé, says nothing about music.
On the other hand the reference for the types of music is dead on no paraphrase. And I found:
(This file now in Music section) Levni mehter.jpg |Levni mehter
Wilson Ref replaces, Website ref removed and replaced by another arabic source that mentions at least what's been already written about the Chaabi poetry. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Rais
Rais is still not linked. I brought this up a month ago and still not fixed. I was planning to put in a definition on an efn tag with a reference. In the context of the articles, although defined as a chief or leader according to the Rais article, but in the context of this articles, they seem to be more akin to an admiral. scope_creepTalk09:51, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
It really needs to be Nourerrahmane that explains it. I have been asking about these and am still unsure. If it's a transliteration problem he needs to spell it out. I think that when used as a title, it should be "Reis" not "Rais" and it means basically means "captain", except that he can sometimes be in command of a small fleet. "Admiral" is a two-part title in Turkish that I don't remember without looking, but that seems to apply only to the Ottoman navy as a whole, not just the Algerian contingent. I think we got somewhere in my most recent question about this but i do not remember if we covered Rais and I am unsure if it is a variation of Reis. It might depend. Where are you seeing this? I think it can also mean "corso" if it is lower case and spelled with a trema. Which half the editors in this article would have ignored because not English. But check with Nourerrahmane. Elinruby (talk) 21:31, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Some sources use Rais, and other sources use Reis. Had to chose one. but it's used the same way pasha is used. Nourerrahmane (talk) 00:27, 9 Aprtl 2024 (UTC)
ok, if they are both right, pick one.
The extreme proliferation of names in this article is a problem and in any article we are supposed to chose one spelling or variant and stick to it, at least if we are still harboring ambitions of featured article status. Remember, you are trying to explain 400 years to people who know nothing nothing nothing and the story is complex enough to confuse people who have already put a bunch of time into it. You do not want the average reader much less the reviewer to be confused. Speaking of confused, I thought Pasha was an appointed bureaucrat and Reis as in Salah Reis was a naval commander. When you get a chance, explain that some more, please. But do the other questions first and get to that when you can, ok? Elinruby (talk) 00:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Salah Rais was a beylerbey, and the beylerbeys of Algiers specifically were corsair captains who held the title of Pasha, governing the entire Ottoman Maghreb. They had two titles, corsair captains and pasha and had real authority over their subjects while enjoying considerable autonomy from the sultan. The beylerbeys of Algiers usually became Kapudan Pasha after they were replaced in Algiers. This obviously scared the sultans who changed the system in place in what was known as the "Pasha period", starting from early 17th century, the pashas were no longer the likes of Salah Rais and Hasan Pasha and Hayreddin Barbarossa, they were usually bureaucrats who were appointed for a 3 years term but held no real authority over the once obedient corsairs and janissaries. Both didn't want Algiers to be just another Ottoman province, but a state with its own intrests as it was designed by the Barbarossa brothers. They made sure the sultan understood this by removing all prerogatives from the appointed pashas, send them back to constantinople or fire them from cannonmouths if they didn't pay the salaries of the soldiers, who, through their military council (Diwan) held true power in the regency as explained in the article. Nourerrahmane (talk) 01:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
ok but just so you know, I already changed a bunch of those to Reis because that's what you said two weeks ago, but find and replace is not that hard to do I guess. Speaking of making me crazy, you are now in charge of making sure every image has an alt parameter because you keep changing the images around. This is probably a good thing in the long run but we have been doing this full time for a month now. They are not easy to write and you will have a better idea that anyone else which ones you are likely to delete. The idea of an alt is that you are telling a blinD person what is in the picture. Look at the ones I did in the music section to for examples of what I mean. No names, no right-left, just what is in the picture. I will check them for English, don't worry about that. Elinruby (talk) 03:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
I'll do it by the end of the today if its not done. I've read a pretty good description of what it means in Julien and a couple of other books as well. Wolf had a description I think, a couple sentences, but there should be more in the context of the article subject. It should be a quick fix to link it and put in an efn tag explaining what it is with a couple of references. I will use the article naming that is already used on the main article. It's similar ti military captain as the most senior officer who fights with soldiers as opposed to be on the general staff. Similar to admiral in effect but called a "captain". That is the description. scope_creepTalk10:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
I am changing instances of Reis to Rais where it takes theform of for example "Salah Reis", since I am on the machine with find-replace capability. (I don't think Chrome on Android does or if it does please do tell) I am leaving lower case rais with a trema alone, where it is something like a synonym of "corso". I have also left the following Sentence in the Mohammed ben Othman section, pending confirmation from Nourerrahmane.Several captains became famous during his reign, such as Raïs Hamidou, Reis Haj Suleiman, Reis Ibn Yunus and Reis Hajj Muhammad, who according to Al-Zahar, commanded about 24,000 men during his various maritime incursions Please let me know if these should also be changed. Seems like they should but I would like to be certain. Elinruby (talk) 02:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
OK that was not as bad as I was afraid it would be. All instances of "Reis". except for the above and the navbar, are now "Rais". Let's use that spelling henceforth so this does not need to be done again. All instances of "Bone" Have been changed to "Annaba". All instances of "Bougie" have been changed to "Bejaia", except, again, for the navbars. Thoise may be appropriate there if the context is colonial. Note to self to add the trema into Bejaia when I am on my phone, where this is easily done. Elinruby (talk) 03:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
@Nourerrahmane:@Elinruby: We probably still need a definition as the main article doesn't cover it. It can be here as an efn tag or probably better on the main article as a small para, two or three lines. Its heavily used all through the article. scope_creepTalk17:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Reis and Rais, both are correct, I used "Rais" more commonly per most sources i used to write the article. Yet both are correct and i think it's a good idea to stick to one of these spellings, i agree that a short definition of "the rais" or the corsair captains is needed, the most adequate section for that is the Ali Bitchin Rais section. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
btw the way I noticed that in another article written by Nourerrahmane "the rais" (lower case with a trema) links to Barbary pirates 05:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
For added enjoyment the French invasion section
It's a nice picture but the text does not mention Sidi Fredj. I gather that this is where the French Army landed, but if you are going to mention the place in the caption it needs to be mentioned in the article. Also the file name spells it Sidi-Feruch, though I guess that's oj because it is linked and the article does give Fredj as an alternate name. I take it that this is French vs. Arabic some more?
Alternately it is probably ok to change the caption to 'Landing of the French Army" but I would go the other way since the file name looks like it is the name of the work. 00:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
based on some clicking around I am really pretty sure the artist was not born in 1992 but I would like them to tell me that and fix the file description. But while I love the image and really want to use it, why was it in that particular section? Elinruby (talk) 06:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
ok they fixed it. It is officially ok to use the image. Previous info: | image1 = A Barbary Pirate by Giovanni Guida.jpg | caption1 = A Barbary Pirate, Giovanni Guida (1837-1895) | alt1 = Turbaned and shirtless man with knives and a pistol in a sash around his waist
Layout: Check me on this
If this is another problem that only I can see I do not want to waste time on it. I am currently on a laptop. I can't currently remember, if I ever knew, how to check the screen resolution on Linux. But it is wider than most laptops. It seems to me that Wikipedia is trying, when it renders the page, to line the elements up, so the reason for the big white space to the right of, for example, the image of the Cardinal at the top of #Spanish expansion in the Maghreb might be that it is trying to align the text with either the right edge of the table of contents or the left edge of the infobox.
First of all, do you two even see this big blank space? What about in the #Algerian Jewish merchants section? Elinruby (talk) 04:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
The space to the right of the image at #Spanish expansion in the Maghreb, re Cardinal is not there. Same in the #Algerian Jewish merchants section. Its fine as well. Its just the way your browser is rendering it. scope_creepTalk09:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Ok then I will stop fussing with the section headers until I can look in another browser. If anybody hates those changes feel free to put them back. I just found a much more important issue anyway. Thank you Elinruby (talk) 09:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Morning @Elinruby: Hows things. It is in pretty decent nick. I would add alt tags too all the images. The lead is the big thing that needs done first. I see somebody posted a tag. It is far too long and had far too much extraneous detail to pass GA at the moment. If it was taken to FA they wouldn't look at it. It needs shortened to three paras and about half the size. It could probably do with a rewrite now the article is completed. scope_creepTalk08:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
@Scope creep: Thanks. Hadn't thought of alt tags. And rewrite the lead, got it. Still doing copy-edit and formatting. Do they want lang templates, do you know? Elinruby (talk) 15:32, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Weather, all done
Thanks for the look; have fun wherever you are hiking. The mountains behind me are supposed to get 80cms of snow tomorrow so my plan involves blankets, the cat, and copyedits on my phone. Hope to knock this out this weekend. Elinruby (talk) 08:45, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
80cm, that is a lot. I never seen that level of snow in Scotland except once, until I went snowboarding in France. I remember trying to get to the garage about 20 feet away I was quite young and could make even get to the garage door, back in quick. It was a pure laugh. scope_creepTalk08:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
extended followup to this land use terminology question in progress further down the page
Comment Got more suggestions. That third para in "Agriculture". It has two definitions, "khammas" and "melk" which are not defined. This I don't understand "distribution of usufruct". That third para could be doing with a brushup. @Mathglot: might check that. scope_creepTalk08:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
this got done
In "Education". I would remove "other such skills". It is the same as etc, which is never on Wikipedia. List them if important, or perhaps remove it. scope_creepTalk09:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
At the top in "Barbarossa brothers arrive" your using privateer to mean pirates and "coarsairing" further down. It is quite an uncommon word coarsaring. scope_creepTalk09:05, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
Getting back to this specific question, @Scope creep:, as you have probably gathered by now, "pirates" and "privateers" are being used more or less interchangeably. The most technically correct of the two as I understand things is "privateer" like Francis Drake, but the exactly right term is "corsair". On the other hand English-language sources almost universally use "pirate", but that is part of the colonialism/other-izing of some of the early historiography. This is going to come up again in discussion, or should. Elinruby (talk) 06:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
In the "Education" section below "Imbalance between military doctrine and culture" You images sitting either side with the text in the middle, which is illegal. They will need reordered. Same in the "Society" section. You may get away with it, as they are no directly facing each other but not directly. Its also in the "Triennial mandate: Pashalik period". That won't be allowed. Also in this section "Ottoman suzerainty weakens". I would think moving to a gallery in the appropriate part of the section or moving to multiple image template, also in the section, might be a better move. An example of its muliple image use is found on the Hannah Arendt article. I think there is many to not a full change, but its really dependent on yourselves. You could move one or two perhaps. I don't know. scope_creepTalk09:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
There is still a couple of section. I'm going to up end doing the images. Sections "Administrations" and in the "Dutch Republic" need sorting. It hits the "Treaty of Algiers on the right". scope_creepTalk08:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
confirmed: driveby image edit by Dutch editor fixed this issue
On this image "Willem van de Velde the Younger (1633-1707) - The Attack on Shipping in Bugia, 18 May 1671 (II) - RCIN 405214 - Royal Collection.jpg". I would check to see if there is update image. It might have been restored in the meantime, in the recent past. It very dark and on some low contrast devices at the lower end of the market if will be very hard to see. scope_creepTalk09:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
[1] may have fixed this? Not sure if this was before or after your review. I was in the history looking for something else: there used to be another paragraph about the borders. I was thinking about making those paragraphs a note Elinruby (talk) 06:32, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
i am fairly certain there is no more word for word translation but I am deeply unsatisfied with what is there...going to talk to myself about it in this section. I may ping some of you with questions
Gustave Clarence Rodolphe Boulanger - La Cour du Palais de Dar Khdaouedj El Amia Alger.jpg
Palais du Bey d'Oran - plafond 2.jpg
Plafond1.jpg
Emile Claus - The mosque of Sidi Boumedienne.jpg
Am I correct on thinking we have enough images for architecture and are not going to use the ones above? I don't think they would apply anywhere else? Elinruby (talk) 21:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Women's clothing and jewelry
Sarma (hat) specifically Jewish or is that just the photo we have? Also this is a headdress not a hat
@Elinruby didn’t really pay attention to the serma, this is one of the most notable examples of women clothing in Ottoman Algeria. Often worn with a kaftan. Jewish women in Algeria also wore it. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
for example, why the hell is the assabah image centered? Is that a mobile thing? Also an image of a woman wearing one would be sooo much better.(probably a mobile thing,copying to bug report section) Elinruby (talk) 07:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
going with Khit errouh over assabah
University of Mostagem got us this [assabah] image, maybe they have others. Also the description at Commons needs deciphering: la nouvelle mariée porte 7 Assabah dans son mariage avec chadda Tlemcem e and et rajoutent sur chaque une khit rou7 et les autres femmes portent que 3 il existe en doré et en argent et en bronze selon la couleur de la tenue Les femmes portent Assabah avec le caftan algérienne, la robe kabyle, chedda tlemcenienne, karakou algérois, et malhfachaoui.
Haha that's literally Algerian dialect in the description, it's basically stating the uses of the Assaba with other pieces of traditionnal women clothing. Will look for a better pic. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
I got that sort of but I am going to look them all up. What's that 7 about? Is is a typo or a special character? (A language around here has words/names with 7 in them is why I ask,and also for search purposes) -er
You found it ! Nice, i think the old picture of the couple in this article covers much of what was listed in Crafts section regarding male Algerian style and women clothing. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:07, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't think that you have to worry about a picture of a woman wearing an assabah. There are several of women wearing Khit errouhs and I don't think Khit errouh vs assabah is important at this scope, do you?
Chedda Oran.jpg
Lead image at Culture of Algeria
Is this the image you were talking about? If so I like it too. Don't worry I just got excited. Google was showing me a lot of shopping sites. Elinruby (talk) 12:12, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Multiimage |total_width = 600
Cheches multicolores.jpg
Foulard 1.jpg
IMENE.jpg
Carte Postale Ancienne Algérie - Mauresque en Costume de Ville.jpg
BijouKabyle2.jpg
Vase trouvés en 1896 musée alger.jpg Vase found in 1896 in an old Israeli cemetery in Bab El Oued dating from the 15th century, whose so-called "Alhambra" vases can be seen.
(Later on a different phone) I see what you mean about image size. This is probably related to that big I was talking about in another thread. Feel free to correct these at will by changing the upright parameter to just say upright and I will do so also. Note there are several answers in this post and I have moved several other posts to group them in sections, pls object if something is wrong. They may still be out of order. @Scope creep: in case he is wondering if I have lost my mind after seeing the images. The rest of this section is fyi Scope, comment if so moved but it's all vocabulary q for Nourerrahmane mostly.Elinruby (talk) 06:05, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
images for culture section
updates on images now in use
(This image being used in article)Café of Sidi Mohamed Schérif in Alger, 1835.jpg
(These images are being used in Crafts section)
Luce Ben Aben School of Arab Embroidery Algiers Algeria.jpg
caption1 = Luce Ben Aben School of Arab Embroidery, Algiers
Dinandier Casbah Alger.jpg
caption2 = Coppersmith, Casbah Algiers
Mharma.jpg
captions = Mharma
Coppersmith, School of arab embroidery and maharma seem relevent because of Ottoman influance, the rest is older and is more relevent to berber culture and heritage. Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Some comments about images:
Ali bitchine mosque would be better used in Architechture section, it takes a lot of place in the History section i beleive
War with spain section: I think a bigger image of the Spanish bombardement of Algiers without the paintings of the two Spanish commanders is better. Love war paintings :D Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:54, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
so it's the scarf on her head not the jewelry? Or are those things hanging down part of the *scarf*. I went with this image before you answered because the jacket is also traditional, although I am not certain whether it is Ottoman.
Ali Bitchin image can become smaller
not against moving the image though, except that the architecture section already has too many images and that would make three of the images of mosques. Open to suggestions here.
I can tell you like war paintings ;) hold off on this one for a second. If one of these is the Goya I might have feelings about that.
I split the image in the Dutch section because I didn't like the battle over his head. Negotiable, what do you think? Elinruby (talk) 14:29, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
Maharma is a traditionnal Algerian kind of Foulard- (Nourerrahmane)
Ok let's do this
I am putting the ILL on Capidjys in the caption on this image: AN EMBASSADOR FROM GREAT TURK TO THE KING OF ALGIER.jpg
Again.
I think this is the third or fourth time. Either stop unlinking it or tell me what the issue is. On that note, I am not finished with the documentation but I am currently pretty done. I will be back but am unsure when Elinruby (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Hey Elin, i'm sorry for this, but i haven't touched touched the Capyjis at all, if so, please send a link so i can avoid doing this in the future. Nourerrahmane (talk) 23:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
I got some sleep which was most of the problem. the image is currently in "Ottoman suzerainty declines". Perhaps when you moved images?I am over it but I would like to finish this article in my lifetime. By the way I am on my laptop an you are right about the image size. Too bad Wikipedia doesn't have style sheets 17:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
sorry for spelling, just now woke up, going for breakfast now. All your changes make it better Nour. I appreciate you. I will send you some notes later, Elinruby (talk) 17:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Goodmorning Elin, thanks, this would have not happened without your motivation and contribution, and me too, i really want to finish this article, and i think we made it quite comprehensive and understandable. I have made some additions in Rais, which i it's clear by now, and Saidouni Pov in Legacy section, as he parallels the the developpement of the Regency with the Ottoman Empire's different periods. Please tell me if you find it useful enough. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
@Nourerrahmane: Useful, yes but the way the sentence is written is confusing and contains a lot of abstract ideas that aren't quite explained. I can fix that however, assuming I understand it correctly
then developed with the [transformation of the Ottoman Empire]] from strength and expansion to weakness and consolidation through local governments that accepted Ottoman legitimacy.
When we first started doing this, I wasn't really looking at article history. Since I have started doing that, I am a little less baffled about why it is so important to explain that it was a legitimate state, but how prevalent is the idea that it wasn't, really? I'd like to look at the Ngrams. Wasn't Scope creep's reaction that he had had no idea about any of that? I suspect that this is true of most English speakers. So that is a question.
But to answer the one you asked me: does this mean "as the Ottoman Empire grew, so too did the strength of the Regency. However Algiers lost its influence with the decline of privateering?" The phrase "consolidation through": should that be consolidation of? Consolidation with? It doesn't quite make sense. It should also be cited, but that author writes in Arabic, right? So I am going to have to ask you questions. I think you should not be afraid of using more words, is what I think. I think it is a good idea to point to the Mediterranean geopolitical structure. Possibly alsp the losses in naval battles, the famine, and the insurrections in the west? So question one: am I right about the first part. Question two: what does the second part mean? And btw, Arabic or not this needs a reference even though you attribute it. HTH Elinruby (talk) 08:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
To answer your first question, the Regency developped its political structure and undertook its policy in part in regards to the developpement of the Ottoman Empire, which undertook transformations and became less centralised, this prompted Algiers to become more autonomous since the Ottomans stepped away from western mediterranean politics. for your second question i will reword that part because it is related to your first question, the idea is how did Algiers asserted its sovregnity in regards to a declining Ottoman Empire. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
It is, but the thing with the historical periods was good, I thought, and one of the things I did not understand is what you mean by "its own specificity", which is still there. Its own identity? Independence? Autonomy? Elinruby (talk) 10:20, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Political structure and economy and relations between the ruler and the ruled, more precisely the military government and the privateer economy and society. c'est un tout actually. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah that's why i relocate it (Historical periods) as the Political status section seems the most fit for that, the political developpement of Algiers was perpenduant to the political developpement of the Ottoman Empire. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:39, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Regarding Khalil Bulukbashi, Bulukbashi is the janissary title for senior officers, and members of the private Diwan were Bulukbashis, when, they become president of the Diwan they attain the rank of Agha, which is why we find in sources both Khalil Bulukbashi, and Khalik Agha. I intend to start writing an article about him. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)th
ok that is helpful. I have an italian from the period who claimed the Dey bathed in blood and the guy de Montesquieu is quoting is really vile. As in the algerians, really don't like women, and also, they get nne-year-olds pregnant. Do we really want to quote this person? The sources themselves seem better than the people they are quoting. I had one a minute ago that said that the Algerians were particularly disliked because they were "arrogrant", which she thinks means "wanted too much money" and "could enforce their demands>"Elinruby (talk) 12:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
If anyone has a reason why "capidjys" should not have an inter-language link please let me know what it is and I will no doubt respect it. For example, if the link is erroneous, that would be a good reason. Even "I don't like it" would be enough at this point. It is just frustrating.
On the whole the iterative changes that the article is going through have greatly improved it. I do want to make that clear.
I would like us to work from the check list now, which I have uncollapsed. There is one section that needs formatting, will look at that next. There are also some some talk page sections I added elsewhere that need to be added to the checklist. Mea culpa. Please let me know if this helps make it clear what still needs doing. I have nudged Mathglot about the Agriculture section. Nourerrahmane, should I ping you or would you like me to just make a suggestion and leave you alone for a while? he Talk page was very messed up at one point this weekend. I told Scope to start at Manufacturing and check me going down the page. The legacy sectiion mighr be enough to worry about, actually. Are you back from holiday? Elinruby (talk) 04:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah I’m back and please ping me so it would be easier for me to answer since the talk page is very big now.
I am sorry Nour I didn't ping you on anything did I. Want me to go through and do that? There are some questions that need you. 12:13, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Wikilala
I have just discover this database at the wikipedia library. The choice of language is between Turkish and Ottoman Turkish, but I have dealt with Ukranian and Russian before so with a little motivation Nourerrahmane for example might have a really good time....
Urban populations section
i added two images. The gallery looks a little funky to me but see image display bug section; this might be me. Please optimize the format as needed. Maybe we should bring the information from the long captions down into the text, but I think there is important information there that makes the discussion less soulless.Elinruby (talk) 02:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
I accidentally closed the window where I had the country report open and currently can't find it. Page 21 supports the text I added about Koughoulis (sp?). Is more there that may be worth adding. There also noted a whole section on land tenure, {[u|Mathglot}}. I agree that American University is the publisher not the author, Scope creep but do you remember the author name?Elinruby (talk) 02:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Thank you both. Checking. Just had to switch phones because of low battery so I need to find my place again. Will get back to you. Need to walk around and refocus first I think. Elinruby (talk) 14:30, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
@Elinruby: I fixed this morning. I see multi imag(ing) has began on the images. I think we've made a breakthough. Finally get the images tamed into some kind of ordered, so easily added/taken away without to reformat working.I had to bail this morning due to death of brain strength, but tommorrow is a new day. Geting the caption name for multi image galleries can sometimes be difficult. scope_creepTalk00:24, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
I had another look at the images. There is has been work to update the images and the MOS:Sandwitch problem seems to have come back. Converting them all to multiple image with the odd one of the right or the left to split the look up, is a good idea. scope_creepTalk09:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Scope creep I feel you on "death of brain strength. Been there a couple of times already. Do I still need to go through and check for multi-image template or is this done? Elinruby (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Ok so I went through every section from War against the Spanish-Moroccan Alliance on back to the end of History. Every section with multiple images now uses multiimage and one or two of the others that currently only have one image as well. Hopefully that helps the problem I can't see that Scope creep is talking about. Elinruby (talk) 05:02, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
@Elinruby: I think its getting better, they are starting to coalesce in various bits where they weren't there before in blocks but the problem still remains. Some of it is just fine tuning, in other areas for example "Foreign Policy", the images are facing each other which is that Mos:sandwich problem but it is easily fixed. I plan to take a look at it when I get back today. The images are much brighter and more salient now. scope_creepTalk 08:46, 20 March
Tashfiniya Madrasa belongs to the Zayyanid Dynasty
(From a little earlier in the thread): I am thinking of adding the image above to the Education section but it could also be good for zellij in Architecture. The ones below are for discussion and I will structure them. I need to save and switch phones. Elinruby (talk) 16:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Hey Elin, i'm back, so Tashfiniya Madrasa belongs to the Zayyanid Dynasty, so not exactly Ottoman period, those below are indeed Ottoman period. Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
what section are you talking about? I just processed multi-image format, so if this is something I did, sorry. I haven't done much with images in the
article itself though, except add the streetscape one in urban populations. Yes multi-image gives better results on my phone also than the gallery tag I used and I will use multi-image from now on. If that is the issue. I am thinking of adding the image above to the Education section but it could also be good for zellij in Architecture. The ones below are for discussion and I will structure them. I need to save and switch phones. Elinruby (talk) 16:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Anyway, Scope creep let me know? I pulled a bunch of images from Commons, too many for this article alone, but there are additional considerations for all of them about sure, this may be traditional, but is it Ottoman period? I need to have some discussions with Nourerrahmane about that, and whether there are already enough images and/or is a new one better in particular sections. I am not certain whether he is back from the mountains. I was getting some browser crashes last night, see section below. I will pull the captions out of the file descriptions now but don't want to cause problems if I am, so I will keep them on the talk page until they are discussed. I read MoS Sandwich and understand it, but I see most of the images as stacked so I might not know I am causing something like that if I am. LMK. Elinruby (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Image are failing mos:sandwitch. The sections at "Reconquest of Algiers", "Political status", "Military chiefs elective: Deylik period (1671–1830)", "Administration", the "Tribal aristocracy" and "Culture" sections, "Architecture" section particularly. Its all closed in for some reason. 17:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC) scope_creepTalk17:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Closed in - er? Ok, when I say that what I get as image display with the gallery tag is "funky", I mean it looks scattered. Dunno if that helps. Are you on a Windows browser right now? Or Apple? Or Android? I can do a screenshot? PS: I added a "left" parameter to the image at the top of "Tribal Aristocracy" because I am pretty sure I read somewhere (MoS?) That people in images should be looking into the page, not out of it. I am fairly confident about that and how/when to use right/left, so I didn't mention it before, but fyi I did that, as a change to an image. I don't see how doing that could cause what you are describing, though. Unless I really don't understand something, which is possible. LMK. That's all I can think to say right now. Elinruby (talk) 17:56, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
On madrasa image ok thanks. Shame, because it's beautiful; I think I will add it to the talk page for the school. I have to compare Ali Bitchin Mosque to what is already there, but it's a lovely image also. Probably for the section that says that he built it? I have to look at what images are in that section now ...splitting off comment about zellij Elinruby (talk) 06:03, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
I have a number of image for zellij that could go in the Examples section over there, but we might want one of the for the Crafts section here, and I am gearing up for a question about that:
Ali Bitchin Mosque Ali Bitchin Camisi Algeria-01.jpg|thumb|upright|Ali Bitchin Mosque| this image is currently in the Ali Bitchin Reis section
Palais du Bey DemeureMod (Oran) (24).jpg]] Was.thinking of using this one as an example of zellij in the Crafts section but R Prazeres says it's Tunisian. I guess Palais du Bey is a museum now? Elinruby (talk) 00:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
On the Ali Bitchin mosque image: Ali Bitchin has a subsubsection under Ottoman sovereignty weakens. It does not currently contain a image. Comments? If we have one a of the man himself that might be better, but...comments? Elinruby (talk) 19:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
I think this week we need to put all the images in multiple image tags like this. This is an example:
Lister's university and his lecturers
Gower street entrance to the university
Wharton Jones
William Sharpey
John Lindley
Thomas Graham
Robert Grant
William Carpenter
I notice its a slighty different template from what your using Elinruby, but very similar. This is an example of the template we should use, placed below the paragraph where it needs to be set. On the comment above. I did a couple of experiments last night with my phone, my pc and laptop. When you create/place the image, when it renders on the phones, the phone screen size will determine how it renders. It will take the image and dump in a column. On pc or laptop (same mechanism) but it comes out more or less how you desi originally design it So that the GA reviewer will look at them, as see overlapping quite significantly as they will be pc or laptop. The madrasa image can probably go in. You tend to more space when there in a multi image gallery. scope_creepTalk19:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Right good call. the one from that batch that I possibly would like to use in the Craft section is the bottom one in the group above again. I will copy the template you point to above the next time I want to ask one of these multiple choice questions. How ever what is the display problem in the article itself? Is it fixed? I can go look now if it isn't. I don't think it's gallery that was the issue, because as far as I can remember, I only did that in the urban populations section, and that was already fixed when you had the problem. Elinruby (talk) 19:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
There is still overlap. In the "Architecture" section for example, the "Niels simonsen Alger 2.jpg" image should be in the gallery in the bottom, as they is overlap. It is not a display problem. What you see I think is different from what I see (I think). But once they are all in the template, apart from the odd one of the left/right it will be fine I think. I think he did a few of them with that template on the French black markert article we did, to fit them all in. It is similar problem here. To size of the images when your creating them, set the image width to between 120px and 150px. So for example, the template has it at 850px for seven images which is 120px per image, assuming there is a 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 per paragraph. If its 8 it will probably need split. The alt property needs a field filled in as well. The caption is sometimes difficult to form as the images may not be directly of the same type. scope_creepTalk20:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Is zellij a technique, a pattern, a pattern of tiles, a type of pattern made with tiles, an art movement in the field of mosaic art, or a type of tile? Or is it about the way the tile is made? Elinruby (talk) 18:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
@Elinruby: . I'm suprised you managed to make any sense out of that message I sent. I can't make head or tails. I must have been sleeping when I wrote it. scope_creepTalk08:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
you actually are making a lot of sense about image placement. It's just a pretty deep dive. So as I understand it we've been having intermittent problems with this apart from variation in the handing of this on different platforms? As
I'm not sure I can follow all the comments so far, but about the question of (zellij) tiles in particular that's come up above:
What is zellij===
"Zellij" is used in passing in the this article as "with star and polygonal plates". Maybe this isn't clear enough for unfamiliar readers, but this would refer to the traditional mosaic technique, where single-coloured tile pieces are cut into polygonal shapes and then fitted together to form larger patterns. (I've replied at Talk:Zellij to clarify this as well.) In Algeria, these were replaced in popularity during the Ottoman period by painted square tiles of various origins, as the article here also correctly mentions. This is briefly mentioned at the Zellij article, but that article is about the mosaic technique in particular (which also had particular motifs associated with it). I hope that helps.
If you're looking to move some tile and/or architecture content elsewhere, I'd suggest Architecture of Algeria#Ottoman period, which has the most detailed summary of the topic at the moment. I've been thinking of adding a subsection there about tiles too (or maybe about decoration generally) in the future. R Prazeres (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
i copied some files over there in the expansion section of the talk page. Wikipedia Commons has over a hundred images of tiles, but the category is hard to find. There is also a lot about the citadel, the kasbah and the palace of the bey, as well as quite a few cafes, mosques, madrasas, 19th century interiors and streetscapes and quite a few portraits.Elinruby (talk) 04:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Casbah streetscapes
Street of the camels, Algiers, Algeria-LCCN2001697815.jpg
Arab Fountain, Rue de la Casbah (GRI).jpg Postcard of Algiers, early 20th century
Casbah d'Alger.jpg La Casbah est un quartier historique situé sur la commune éponyme de la Casbah à l'ouest du centre-ville d'Alge . La Casbah (qui signifie la « citadelle ») est l'ancienne citadelle d'Alger, peu à peu on appella la Casbah l'ensemble du quartier autour de la citadelle
Photo de la Casbah d'Alger en Algerie.jpg rues de la casbah, prise derrière le musée d'Ali
Liked a lot the "Café de Sidi Mohamed chérif à Alger, 1835" picture, i replaced the modern view of the naighborhood with it since it's about the same place and adequate with the subsection which talkes about cofeehouses. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
(This image used in article) Café of Sidi Mohamed Schérif in Alger,1835.jpg caption = Café de Sidi Mohamed chérif à Alger, 1835
so not typical of the Ottoman period, then, is that what you are saying? See, this is why I ask a lot of questions. Elinruby (talk) 00:01, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
happy to ask. I do have some clue how much I don't know. I dropped it in the Architecture section at Madrasa Thaalibia. Going to collapse this bullet point when you have had a chance to read it. Elinruby (talk) 00:33, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Renoirs are lovely but it's a French take
Renoir - the-harem-parisian-women-dresses-as-algerians-1872.jpg!PinterestLarge.jpg
Mosque at Algiers, Renoir, 1882.jpg|caption3=Mosque at Algiers, Renoir, 1882 |
the Renoir is lovely but do we know what mosque that even is? Also possibly of use if anyone possibly examines European perceptions of Algeria. (Along with the Parisian women playing dress-up) Which we don't in this article apart from some mentions of "captured the imagination" Elinruby (talk) 00:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
how about putting the "servant at the water fountain" image in the "Dey Muhammad ben Othman Pasha (1766–1792)" since it talk about water works? Elinruby (talk) 14:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
I find no harm in that, though it might be added next to the cannon, as to show that the Dey cared about both civil and military infrastructures. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Nourerrahmane when you have time please see the questions above. I should look up when Renoir was in Algeria. I am thinking 1860s.Elinruby (talk) 09:24, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
just making sure, put servant girl at the fountain next to the cannon? Yes that I what I think also. Going to try it. Elinruby (talk) 01:42, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Alger servante à la fontaine.jpg Servant at the water fountain |alt2=
Theodore Leblanc - Algerian Interior c1835 - (MeisterDrucke-219939).jpg
(this is all about access to a source for verification. access old, verification on progress) Society section
I cleaned up after my previous heavy edit of this short intro section. It's done as far as I can tell, except for the rather serious problem of "tribal anarchy", which I realize after talking to Nourerrahmane is a reference to French historiography. It isn't explicit however, and if I, who have previously complained about the French historiography of Algeria, needed this explained to me, I think the rather jarring word "anarchy" is just going to come across as a gratuitous insult and not a reference to an existing insult. Since the main point of this short intro section is the transition from tribalism to nationalism, I recommend substituting "the tribe" for "tribal anarchy"
I checked Merouche. Its a single para in Merouche 2007 so suspect the page range being so large. Nourerrahmane can you check it. scope_creepTalk10:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
when i used Merouche a while ago, an insight was still available in google books, but not anymore now. So i don't really have access to this source. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:39, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Did you find a link to it at the Internet Archive? We're linking to Google Books in that reference. if you have a better link would you mind fixing that too? And how about anarchy, can I nuke that? Elinruby (talk) 11:54, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Those two volumes are really good Elin, i couldn't find them to my dismay. and yes, you can remove it, replace it with something like, Tribal loyalties ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
I found the book in another location. I can forward it if you want. I have updated it to Marouche 2007 p.139. The Marouche 2007 cite was aleady there. scope_creepTalk12:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
@Nourerrahmane: I've emailed the Merouche 2007 to Elinruby. Can you email her directly to get a hold of it.. My email doesn't work on Wikipedia, so can't contact you directly. Is there any other books you need you don't have? I can see if I can get them? scope_creepTalk15:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
I emailed her, thanks. Well i would like to have the Merouche's volume I of and Godfrey's book "Barbary Legend; War, Trade, and Piracy in North Africa, 1415-1830" if you already have them. Thanks! Nourerrahmane (talk) 16:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
@Nourerrahmane: Godfrey's book "Barbary Legend; War, Trade, and Piracy in North Africa, 1415-1830 is out of print. Print editions are going between 85ish-90 to 200 quid. It seems to be an early standard text and extremely well regarded, making it like gold. Can't find it anywhere. On Merouche I, I can't get it at the moment. Once its available, I'll ping you. I'll keep checking to see if its available. I'm sorry I couldn't get them. scope_crheepTalk08:54, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
^Zahhār 1974, pp. 23–24. sfn error: no target: CITEREFZahhār1974 (help)
timur possible references
I can'r find the request for a reference right now. These look respectable and are used to support the this" {{Timariot (or tımar holder; tımarlı in Turkish) was the name given to a Sipahi cavalryman in the Ottoman army. In return for service, each timariot received a parcel of revenue called a timar, a fief, which were usually recently conquered plots of agricultural land in the countryside.[1][2] Far less commonly, the sultan would grant a civil servant or member of the imperial family a timar.[3] Also non-military timar holders were obliged to supply the imperial army with soldiers and provisions.[4]
The timariots provided the backbone of the Ottoman cavalry force and the army as a whole. They were obligated to fight as cavalrymen in the Ottoman military when called upon.}} at Timariots. Check then use. Elinruby (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
İnalcık, Halil; Quataert, Donald, eds. (2003) [1990]. An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire, 1300–1914. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-57456-0. Two volumes.
Page 107İnalcık, Halil, ed. (1978). The Ottoman Empire : Conquest, Organization and Economy. Cambridge University Press.
i just got my eyes and brain coordinated enough to read the diff. So we haven't talked about this because too much else is going on but wait a minute. Who is the author? Let me read again. Elinruby (talk) 10:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
So it is Hasan Bey and the al-Zahar below is that talk ref thing. I will explain that again later, but I got scared because I did *reference* al Zahar earler and on the device with the deranged mousepad to. If I did something to at Zahar it's a mistake. If we are on fact talking about Hasan Bey, somewhere in the checklist stuff Scope creep did yesterday he point out that Lulu.com is a vanity press and he is right. It is on a list of several publishers who will print any thing f or anyone with enough money, so everything the produce is blacklisted. A shame because that cafe society stuff will be a little tough to re-source. So I am going to stop talking so that you can tell me whether you know what I am talking about or do I need to explain reliable sources some more? that is not. Sarcastic question. You are still pretty new I think, right? No shame in not knowing. It is not learning that is the issue. Which brings me to my next questions: did anyone ever tell you about the Wikipedia Library? There are some other things like Free access to JsTor also. Let me know Elinruby (talk) 10:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
I know what you're talking about, so Hasan bey is not a RS, so yeah it will be tough to resource the lot. and i know about wikipedia library though i rarely use it. And i never had free access to JsTor Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
aha well let me tell you about free access to JsTor. When you are are the sign on screen You click...I think it goes sign on with Jstor versus sign on through your institution. I think you ick that one then, pinkie promise, maybe sign in with Jstor, if you have a Google account you can sign up for a free account that can read 100 artocles a months and downoad a few also. Maybe ten. But it's whatever those members are, every month. Which goes a long way. I just saw some really specific stuff about streets on Algiers yesterday. I don't know that it mentioned those cafes but beat on mind that I'm the one who wanted to talk about music in the cafes at night so I eill help eith this. Yesterday I was looking for irrigation though. And what Ben Othman did about the Water support in Algiers Elinruby (talk) 11:38, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
the only requirement for JStor is a Google account. I thing they might take an email too. There are two ways to do this though. I just always use google myself because a lot of the time I am on an android anyway. You might be having a "this article is taking over my life" moment but I do think we are 75 to 80 % done and there is no deadline. We need to find this stuff ourselves tho. If we still want GA and I know I do. This article will be exquisite when done Elinruby (talk) 11:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Ok mobile interface starting to teds the text around again. I am going back to bed. If you haven't found the place to make a JStor account by my the time we talk again let me know and I will walk you through it it. Elinruby (talk) 11:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
if you need some suggestions about what needs doing i started but did not finish section 3 and the subsection right before it that has the copy vio. Or not, if you have stuff you would rather do. Elinruby (talk) 12:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC) night, gotta go Elinruby (talk) 12:01, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Geez, I forgot about and its only been 2-3 weeks as well. I'm glad somebody is remembering what has been said. Forget what I said about it. scope_creepTalk09:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
I took it out, It would break my heart to have a GA fail after all this. That is why N woke me up last night. Not that I am complaining about that. I often *am* awake at that time. Just explaining a certain incoherence in my early posts to the thread, which starts on my talk page btw. I am getting a lot of hits about coffeehouses -- apparently the Ottomans established them everywhere they had ties to -- but Algiers is tougher. Once you add it in to the search terms a lot of the hits seem to be either about the Young Turks or the Algerian Civil War, There is probably a remedy to this in search syntax somehow. Incidentally I will be gone most of the day and evening tomorrow (Pacific time). Bit I may be able to get some stuff done tonight. Maybe I'll take a break from coffeehouses and do the trans-titles. Unsure. Still just barely sitting down.
Wishlist: Walls of Algiers: Narratives of the City Through Text and Image
Editors Zeynep Celik, Julia Clancy-Smith, Frances Terpak
Edition illustrated
Publisher University of Washington Press, 2018
ISBN 0295996722, 9780295996721
Length 288 pages
The population revolted in Blida, the Hodna and Issers, in some oases of the south and Al-Nammasha in the Aurès.[1]
Unable to verify. Would love for some one to show this to me. Alternately another source?
References
^Allioui 2006, p. 369. sfn error: no target: CITEREFAllioui2006 (help)
You did good to remove it, i think its not a very important information knowing that there were rebellions in Kabylia that the dey ended. Also i noticed that i did a lot of mistakes in spelling when i did those additions, so i'll make sure to check out all your modifications so i can avoid wasting your time with these mistakes in the futureJus.
Not sure i understand your point, my spelling could be worked on though i think the article is mostly finished by now, i'm working mostly on refs that Scope is mentionning, and i'm not in a hurry, this might take a while and i do it in my freetime since i enjoy working on this article and if you feel better stepping away then so be it, GL to you. Nourerrahmane (talk) 22:13, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
Reviews
@Nourerrahmane:, how are you getting on with updating those fixes on the 2nd block of the review I did. I guess the 3rd block won't be done yet. I'll start check the "Crisis of the 19th century" today. scope_creepTalk10:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Let's try this: if you have verified that references in a given section are verified and don't paraphrase too closely, check and cross off the section name below then sign I have done two sections I have finished below. If you do find a problem, or need language help, start a list item under "Houston we have a problem" or a separate section if you prefer. Elinruby (talk) 01:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Seems ok so far apart from reference 15, seems to be wrong. Vol 2 starts at p695 and vol 1 at p93 is talking about Castallan sheep. The arabicref is very wishy-washy but accurate, no far no close paraphrasing. scope_creepTalk16:05, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
No paraphrasing. Ref 16 covers a lot of space for one page in Abun-Nasr. The sentence need split with a couple of other refs, to illustrate effects. scope_creepTalk16:29, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
Probably the translation software is mispresenting the number. I don't know arabic. I tried it in bing, google and deepl and they report 6 prisoners, so it may wrongly translated. scope_creepTalk14:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
I checked this yesterday with the helpdesk. There is nothing in the WP:MOS about sentence length, but needs to succint. The GA editor will check it and if needs, it will get done then. If its smaller, it should be better. scope_creepTalk10:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Ref 45 doesn't seem to hit the mark at all. Hugo 2014 seems to be discussing woments p.224 The sentence is also huge with multiple events. scope_creepTalk15:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
distant and so close to Spain quite perilous is unreferenced and neither of the sources I looked at mentions worried about Spain, but rather Rhodes and Egypt.Elinruby (talk) 08:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Vatin states it was October 1519 when it went under Ottoman control. They is no closure on the journey, which needs to be there. p.155. Add the date in. scope_creepTalk15:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
It states that Algiers the spearhead when Panzac states it was Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli were the spearhead. It is minor.
That section is fine, apart from that long sentence which needs referenced better and Hugo seemingly wrong, unless its the wrong edition/year and no mention when became a Ottomon estate. scope_creepTalk15:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
The question of different names for Barabarossa is going to confuse the reviewer and the reader. A single name, the most common name should be chosen to make the text clear. It might be worth putting a note in explaining to the reader. In Holt he is called "Khayr al Din". That is three names. There is an article Khair ad-Din which means "the goodness of the faith". Barbarossa is mention. Maybe worth linking putting note in right enough. scope_creepTalk16:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
not convinced we should link to a disambiguation page. I agree that it's an issue however; N and I had a long confusing conversation on the talk page about this before we got that straight. I gather it is something completely obvious like Tricky Dick for Americans or who the Virgin Queen or the Iron Lady were. I am trying to built a Rosetta Stone further down the page. Probably the answer is either a note or a parenthesis. But I keep finding more like this. Elinruby (talk) 21:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
This "Taking advantage of the corsairs' reputation as "holy warriors" and social divisions between urban and rural populations, he bolstered his ranks with Andalusi refugees and local tribesmen" is not mentioned in Ref 52. scope_creepTalk16:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
Ref 59 doesn't say he attached the island, just that the port was modernised. Close-in, close to shore islands were often connected to mainland when they're tidal river was filled in. It was common practice (from working on another article) as it gave them positions to place guns far out in the harbour It would be worth trying to find a reference for it, as he and the ottomans seems to have ushered in a golden age of trade. scope_creepTalk21:10, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
That is much better. Description of the causeway, single name for Heyridden and Hess mentions the holy warriors and Cambridge history of islam mentions the refugees and there would be local tribesman. That is an excellent analysis again. That's it done. Y
This question of rescuing 70000 refugees is dubious. It seems to calculated number, post calculated which is not WP practice on Ref 61. Post calculation is never used. You need a more accurate reference, its too woolly and inaccurate. It mentions shuttling seven times so could be used to ref the closing of the sentenced which isn't reffed. scope_creepTalk09:57, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
"And thus" has no logical follow through. There is no reason for it to there. That para needs rewritten to explain the impact and why holy war followed. The ref is good. scope_creepTalk 15:29, 21 March 2024
"another massive". I would replace that as doesn't mean anything. I would put the numbers in 300 ships, 30000 men. (That is massive, but it meaningless in the modern context. It could mean anything. ) scope_creepTalk16:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Abun-nasr pp=154-155 puts the number even bigger at 500 ships and more marines. I'd put another ref in there and put as (sources vary) on it. The sources vary is standard WP way per consensus of show variance in sources. Hope that helps. scope_creepTalk16:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Ref 71 doesn't talk about Martín Alonso Fernández. He did lead it and its accurate. Needs a newer ref.
The sentence beginning "In 1552, Salah Rais" I can't verify it. However, from the Tuggurt Expedition (1552) is seems to be true, but Ref 74 doesn't mention it and I can't access Gaid 1978. I would perhaps reformat the sentence to link to the Tuggurt article and find better ref, unless there is some confusion in the naming. Salah Rais seems to be quite clear. scope_creepTalk17:36, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Had a look at this. The sources is in as the numbers are indeterminate. I haven't identified ref 72 but I will check from date this comment. I'll do it now. The section is clearer now and easier to read with additional references and has some detail on Salah Rais which wasn't there before. Checked this. Ref 72 doesn' have a volume. The section is more than twice the size now. That is done and checked Yscope_creepTalk12:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
1.1.6.2 War against the Spanish-Moroccan Alliance
Algerian-Sharifian conflicts shaped the western border of Algeria. Odd sentence. Mentions geopolitical changes in the source. Could it be rewritten. Ref 90 good. scope_creepTalk08:10, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
"Mulay Ahmad III was forced to take refuge in the Spanish presidio of La Goleta" isn't mentioned in Truxillo. Needs a ref. scope_creepTalk16:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Ref 97 I thought would verify Caïd Ramdan. He was defo pasha of Algiers but not byerbli. I got the Hugh Robert book, same edition, doesn't mention it on p.175. scope_creepTalk17:00, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
On the sentence that begins "In 1578 an army corps of the" Ref 91 doesn't validate it. It does mention him writing on the sand and being copied letter for letter but the language isn't clear. What army corps is it? They is no make up of it, what it was composed it. There has to be a better ref than this Arabic one. The language is so wooly to be incomprehensible. scope_creepTalk17:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
It might be worth mentioning Eulj Ali, who was the grand admiral of the ottoman fleet in the sentence "his was followed by a cancelled". He was sent to attack then but cancelled. Julian p.301. I can't find an article but its odd the name is not there. scope_creepTalk17:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Cory states p.9 "Rajab 989/August 1581 As a result of al-Hawzālī’s meeting with Sultan Murād III, invasion of Morocco by Kapudan Pasha `Ulūj `Alῑ is cancelled. Ottoman treaty signed with Morocco protects Moroccan autonomy". So that could be rewritten to explain it better. scope_creepTalk17:52, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
That section is done. I've checked the referenced and the rewording at the end para is much better and clearer with a bigger section, more explanation. This is done.Yscope_creepTalk13:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
"Once they adopted the use of round-bottomed vessels" Doesn't explain why they grew powerful. Braudel has the description there. Just needs one or two sentences to explain why. scope_creepTalk19:15, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
"pirate economy of forced exchange and paid protection for the safety of crews, cargo and ships at sea". Needs reworded. Copied verbatim. scope_creepTalk19:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
@Nourerrahmane: I've updated that section to mention square-rigged sailing ships which was the core innovation that changed the whole approach to coarsairing in the early 1600's, enabling them to breach the Atlantic. Can you check its ok, wording and so on. scope_creepTalk17:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
That section beginning "The authority of the pashas that but according to Meyerson it is the 1570's. I couldn't verify Ref 120 and 121. They were definently freed from ottoman control but what group it was insn't mentioned in Meyerson. I can't see Kaddache. scope_creepTalk16:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
"The Seizing 6,000 sequins is verified Garrot p.444 but the sentence itself hasn't got a conclusion. "Seizing 6000 to compensate". Right they siezed 6000 then what. That needs fixed. scope_creepTalk16:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
That has been updated with references and more dates with gives it depth. Garrot is used for 6k sequins which is accurate. Thats it done and checked.Yscope_creepTalk17:17, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
starts with Ali Bitchin
1.2.1.1 Ali Bitchin Raïs
1.2.2 Foreign policy
1.2.2.1 Kingdom of France'
Unexplained Reference to Coral fishermen FIXeD
1.2.2.2 Kingdom of England
ref 138 (Matar); supports the attacks at the bottom of p.150. The outcome however, presumably on 151, is not part of the preview
160 same as 147, with or without page numbers is the question. Document is open-access OAP, great source with no page numbers. Check against this for further copy vio, although that section has had a detailed rewrite since I spotted this. Could do with another look though. Elinruby (talk) 03:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
1.3 Maghrebi wars (1678–1756)
*1.3.1 Tunisian campaigns
Some sentences unreferenced
Kaddache
spahi was linked to sipahi. I think it should be sipahi and changed it, because the spahi were in the French Army. Noting here in case I am wrong Elinruby (talk) 01:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
(all good)ref 186 Panzac 300 verifies the olive oil, not the tribute though
But that's ok, since Ref 185 on the same sentence verifies the tribute but not the oil. Source is snippets only, but this comes up for a search on "Tunis" Elinruby (talk) 02:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Refs 182, 183: My snippet search was unsuccessful for 183, but 182 fully verified the sentence. Paraphrase was not very close but I did a slight rewrite to be on the safe side. None of the above were even slightly close Elinruby (talk) 03:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
@Nourerrahmane: I like your changes to the Tunisian campaigns section very much. A couple of quibbles, and they are that, very minor:
If the horizontal image is #1 in the template and a vertical image follows, on mobile devices it is on top of the vertical image in a T shape that seems wrong, especially if the vertical image is a person; then it looks like they have a naval battle over their head. That's not the case here, but that is why I have commented about this a couple times.
I had to re-read this sentence a couple of times: "Dey Chabane took this opportunity to defeat Tunis in the Battle of Kef, conquer it and depose Mohamed Bey El Mouradi in 1694..." I see now that he won the battle and took over the country, then defeated Mohamed. But on a first fast read "defeat" and "conquer" seem like synonyms, although I see now that they are not, in this sentence. I think avoiding the use of the pronoun "it" might help. I did a minor copyedit but I think given your grasp of the facts you are better equipped to reword that than me. A small problem, maybe 1.5 out of 10, but one that it would be nice to fix.
break to praise our SME
PS: I thought you handled the stuff about Mohammed exactly right and the other editor was being rather unreasonable. "Prophet" wasn't even capitalized and the article is chock-full of people named Mohammed. Saying "the prophet Mohammed" the way it was is a description not a title, distinguishing him from all of the other Mohammeds that we refer to. Feel free to ask for help if he shows up again. The way you have this right now is verbatim from policy. I just think the way it was before was okay also, but I suppose they were making the point that not everyone believes he was a prophet, eyeroll. Elinruby (talk) 23:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
Maybe! I am going backwards in time so I might be missing something. But Scope creep seems to say that we don't need to worry about too many pictures, and he follows policies quite closely. I personally think they are good. I think my answer is that if it isn't hard go ahead and add it. We can always take it back out. And if was about French ships (that's the section above Denmark I think?), then yeah that might be clearer. If it's not that easy right now, then wait and see what Scope has to say, is my thought. I was just noting my confusion.Elinruby (talk) 16:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
(Finally done) War with Spain still: What's this stuff about a presidency? Presidio maybe? This might be machine translation edited by bots. Also, seemed like Oran got Algiers back in a treaty then there were anti-pirate expeditions, then negotiations, then suddenly Oran is Spanish. Re-read and double check what happened there.Elinruby (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
First para is good. Altered slightly to join it up, as its all one event.
Sentence beginning "In 1792 in Constantine popular administrator of the eastern Beylik Saleh Bey was killed" seems to hang. The 1814 block is seperate and the sentence beginning in 1792 should be seperate para. But it looks muddled as your in 1814 then its 1792. If Beylik Saleh Bey is related to the discussion on the wars, which is discussed in the next paragraph (should it not be in that para>) then I would put in something, "In a series of events that began in 1972 with the death of Beylik Saleh Bey... It looks muddled at the moment.
2 Political status - now highly rewritten. Davidann reference was copied; one sentence only, but word for word. Julien supports the quote but had a (trivial) difference in wording, Modified article to match. For the other two references the cited page is not within the preview. Heavy rewording in this section, however, confident no close paraphrase remains Elinruby (talk) 09:34, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
For 254 it is there but only for mayor, whereas the article text says qadis, muftis and mayors. The source mentions mayors the goes on to talk about guild leaders and some other non-religious officials. I have just realized that I am uncertain how to add a quote in this type of citation but down towards the bottom of p.54 the source says: Algiers had its own mayor and city council (hakam), positions which were held by non-Turks as a holdover from the original pact woth Baba Aruj..." I changed it to just say mayor but that feels lonely so I am going to add and city council also per the source. If Nourerrahmane wants muftis and qadis he can add them when he has a sourceElinruby (talk) 05:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
2.2 Ottoman Viceroyalty of Algiers (1519–1659)
2.2.1 Corsair kings: Beylerbeylik period (1519–1587)
2.2.2 Triennial mandate: Pashalik period (1587–1659)
Need a date for this: "Aversion to the Sublime Porte increased in..." Or a period, e.g Around the mid-16th century... or so. Its introduced out the blue with no context. scope_creepTalk15:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
2.3 Sovereign Military Republic of Algiers (1659–1830)
Never mind! N reminded me further down the page that Bouloukbashi is a title, and informed me that he held it before he was Agha.Elinruby (talk) 14:24, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Ref 285 doesn't validate that sentence, although the sentence is accurate. I looked at the 2000 edition of the book and 2012 and its not in it. scope_creepTalk09:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Also noticed that Dey (maternal uncle) and Doulateli (head of state) and Hakem are not linked. There is a wiki dictionary for [4] and a fr article for [5]. I wonder if we can link the wikt defition for Hakem using the wikt template. Looking Doulateli. scope_creepTalk10:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Also noticed diwan has an definition at wikt: [6]. Its mentioned near the top of the article before its discussed in the dîwân council section much futher down so needs linked early. The wikt definition is ideal. scope_creepTalk11:04, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
[7] is more confusing than not. [8] and come to think of it didn't I see that you link to it? Will double check 20:57, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Deylik period (1671–1830)
looks like this got omitted somehow from the checklist. There is a really really really close paraphrase of the Abun-Nasr reference at the top of the section. Noting because I will need a moment to figure out how to fix it. The first sentence is referenced to Wolf. The second is cited ti Abun-Nasr p.160 but the link goes to 157; probably because it says 160 is not part of the preview, but if you scroll up and down you can see it. The paraphrase is way too close. I think I can rework the second part but slightly stuck on the first. Elinruby (talk) 14:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
this is done, both parts, but both of you should check it. I am going to be sleepless over the fact that we are still finding this stuff. I think I will google some randome chunks of text for funsies. On the other hand, to be clear, this is text that was being worked on for the first time. 21:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Administration
3 Administration
3.1 Algerian stratocratic government
Malcolm (currently 310) does according to snippets contain the words ""despotic, military-aristocratic republic" but I can't verify that he was talking about Algiers and honestly I think if what we want is an example of somebody calling the Dey of Algiers a despot, I don't think we should use Montesquieu, because he was apparently wish-washy on whether or it was an aristocracy or a republic. And he thought all monarchs were despots. This was really Laugier de Tassy's idea according to the source, and he is impenetrable. Elinruby (talk) 11:11, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
311 first use - does say that Jean-Baptiste de Boyer, Marquis d'Argens said this. Why not quote him directly though? Also it isn't clear whether he thinks this is a good thing. 311 second use is misleading. Gibbons says that all military governments do this.
Well the source mentions "Barbary States" and Algiers is the closest of them to a republic, regarding the "despotic Dey" i will add few small quotes by Saidouni and Julien to give a better idea of what the Dey was in that regard. he's already mentioned as a constitutionnal aurocrat. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
hang on, let me finish the section first or we will have edit conflicts and both get frustrated. Also I have suggestions. These people are considered important to the French revolution and all lived under autocrats remember. And yes, no quest he was an autocrat. Was there a constitution in the American sense of the word? Elinruby (talk) 12:07, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, that looks a lot like a constitution. We should be talking about this. Did you see what I said somewhere else about Laugier de Tassy btw? Also, one of the sources I have been looking at -- pretty sure it is one of yours --- was talking about "constitutional". Let me see if I can find that and also the one about the Agha supposedly bathing in blood. that Pacte should definitely be in the article. Nour. Write that up. Let me see if I can find those links. 15:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
and I thought about making the dey section look a bit like this :
According to French historian Charles-André Julien, the dey of Algiers was head of an elective but absolute monarchy as a de-facto constitutional autocrat,[1][2][3] He was in charge of the enforcement of civil and military laws, delivering justice,[4] ensuring internal security, generating necessary revenues, organizing and providing regular pay for the troops and assuring correspondences with the tribes.[5] But his power was still limited by the corso captains and the diwan of the janissaries, since any member of either body could aspire to become dey.[3] His fortune came from his civil list that didn't exceed that of the highest paid member of the janissaries, and although he could still receive presents from consuls, beys and shares from privateer booty, his fortune reverted back to the public treasury in the event of assassination, This led some authors to call the dey a "despot without liberty",[1] a "king of slaves and slave of his subjects",[6] and a "man of wealth without being able to master his treasures".[7]Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Nonono If there is something you hate you should tell me. We have to agree, we are all three good at different things. And all of us losing our minds over this article lol. This is the guy who talks about bathing in Blood, but we should think about this. Several people say that Lettres Persanes was about Algiers but I am not seeing it, and it could be me. Anyway: [10] Let me go look up who he was, and try again for that constitutional discussion in one of these sources. Oh and check out how you do references on a talk page. Elinruby (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
I like it. The quotes make it livelier. A couple of words need fixing. "Correspondances" means "things that are the same" in English. Relations maybe? Let me do a quick copy edit on the things I do understand. I will make a copy of this first in case you hate my edit, lol 15:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
References
^ abJulien 1970, p. 321. sfn error: no target: CITEREFJulien1970 (help)
^Isichei 1997, p. 273. sfn error: no target: CITEREFIsichei1997 (help)
^Julien 1970, p. 322. sfn error: no target: CITEREFJulien1970 (help)
^Khoja 2016, p. 98. sfn error: no target: CITEREFKhoja2016 (help)
^Julien 1970, p. 324. sfn error: no target: CITEREFJulien1970 (help)
^Wolf 1979, p. 292. sfn error: no target: CITEREFWolf1979 (help)
I think there was a better discussion but i can't find it tight now. Anything I find before I fall asleep I will post here. if you are doing rewrites here I am going to turn to seeing what other loose ends I can tie up Elinruby (talk) 16:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
aha is that where that was. I realized later it is probably Djidjeli. I will go look right now. Elinruby (talk) 23:06, 16 April 2024 (UTC) Aha there are some language variants going on here. Now spelled Jijel. And yes appparently it is surrounded by Oak forest. @Nourerrahmane: I think Djidjeli is the old name so I am going to link it to Jijel, tell me if I am right about that, and Scope, that is the thing to do, right? or actually, it's a redirect, I don't have to. Elinruby (talk) 23:15, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Can't see Kaddache and can't locate any information for Hassan-Bey 2022 from gbooks even when signed in. The gbook reference doesn't have page numbers, so for the read will fail WP:V even assuming by AGF that the references are good. Ruedy is a only a single sentence and is ok. scope_creepTalk15:21, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
That is done. I see Djidjeli is gone. That is fine. If it couldn't be linked at this time. Kudos for finding Jijel, although I see its used further up the article. Solid work. Section seems to be clearer and better written now. Yscope_creepTalk07:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4.6 Trade
"roads were suitable for vehicles" Sound weird. When vehicles are mentioned, it assumed to be a cars. Carts are mentioned in previous sentence. scope_creepTalk16:23, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
yeah I couldn't think of a way to reword that at the time --if one comes to mind, feel free. I think given the period we are saying that it was not a goat path Elinruby (talk) 16:35, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
I've reworded it slightly to get rid of two "mainlys" in the same sentence and included the carts on road to get rid of vehicles. Also changed shipped to delivered, since assumed if coming by sea it will be by ship. Its better worth checking. Y
Ref 351 Ruedy 1997 is about plowing and doesn't mention "99% of the population". The actual ref mention Ruedy 2005 where the link is to Ruedy 1992. Mind you they are actually both published in 1927, so this will need looked at. Can't locate it. scope_creepTalk17:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
It is not published in 1927, the version on archive.org is 1992. I need to the 2005 version. The ref still needs fixed to not point to the correct 2005 dated citation. scope_creepTalk17:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
The ref for "Café Tlemçani, Café El Fouara, Café Gourari and Café Larriche." has been removed which was in there on 16th April. scope_creepTalk06:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
May be linked to Bled es-Siba. Google states from a removed wikipedia entry that its "There were tribes that refused the sultan's authority and taxes, in areas known as Bilād as-Siba" scope_creepTalk09:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
The Ruedy ref on archive.org is the 1992 edition, not the 2nd edition from 2005. The ref needs updated to reflect its 2005. Its almost identical. scope_creepTalk09:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
The para beginning "Central authority" It probably needs rewritten as it took four or five reads over 2 days to understand it. Its fundamentally, centralised legistative control enabled tribal growth/cohension by controlled access to markets via middlemen. Consolidation may be the wrong work. I'm saying its wrong. It doesn't mean "the action or process of combining a number of things into a single more effective or coherent whole." which is accurate in the context, but in the modern sense its a word more known for use in discussion in a commercial environement. Thinking about it may be actually accurate for the context. But for all that, its a difficult para to read and it wouldn't meet FA. Its needs twice the space to describe it. The refs are ok on it. Vatin 1982 is really good. A solid academic analysis. The tribe article is junk unfortunately. There could be tribes of north africa, and summarise it here. Not needed for GA at the moment, though. scope_creepTalk12:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
As far as I know all this is deal with, but it should be checked. Getting the other section also Elinruby (talk) 21:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Aristocratic castes: is "tribal dust" just saying that this is an ancient social structure? (moved from earlier three-item question) Elinruby (talk) 06:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, pre colonial maghreb was tribal to the core, but in the Ottoman period, the tribes started affiliating themselves with "the country of Algiers" or Watan al Djaza'ir.
on tribes I am, I think, grasping the point about centralization. But why is "dust" there? .Maybe I just need to look at the sentence in the source. I think it is just saying that this was an ancient social structure? Elinruby (talk) 08:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
didn't grasp it as much as I thought, thanks for discussion below Elinruby (talk) 15:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
"Tribal dust" is a term used by the cited author, it 7 tribes didn't care about central authority and cared more about their own strength. This was a response to 19th century French authors who claimed that, since Algerian soceity was mostlly tribal, we cannot speak about the existance of an "Algerian people". French authors in that period often wanted to disregard the role of the Algerian tribes in the administration and politics of Ottoman Algeria. The point was to make the Ottoman elite completely seperated from the population, and that would paint the Ottomans as conquerors and usurpers rather than an Algerian elite that although it kept its Ottoman character, it still seperated itself from the imperial core in istanbul and posed itself as an Algerian central authority that derived its legitmacy from Jihad against christian powers and garenteer of National unity in a sence, as if it was a warrior aristocracy, which is why many Ottoman Algerians married to the tribes to ensure their loyalty to the center and organise internal administration and levy of taxes. Thus, the colonial theory was proved wrong by more recent scholarly Algerian and western sources. Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
"Dust" refers to what colonial authors wanted point out as "tribal anarchy", they were opposed to words like heritage or traditions as this would imply a historical background for the Algerian people, something the French opposed to the point of destroying many historical sites including the lower qasba in Algiers for example. French authorities stripped lands from Algerian tribes and imposed the civil code on what they called "The indiginous pupulations" (The didn't recognize the existance of an Algerian people), Thus cutting tribal ties and seperating members of the same tribe from each other, giving them new family names based on their looks or their job, without giving them French citizenship however. Nourerrahmane (talk) 09:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Maybe it's sarcasm, "Tribal anarchy" would fit better for understanding i beleive, you see it's a sensitive subject regarding Algerian French relations to this day, French president Macron caused a diplomatic crisis in 2021 when he questionned if there ever was an Algerian nation or people before colonisation. This colonial issue is all rooted in this claim. And don't worry, you have done a lot of good work in this article that i couldn't hope to acheive myself, so thank you for that. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Did some additions in society section, hopefully they are clear ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
looking now. I hadn't heard about Macron. But based on what I do (did?) know, there is (was?) plenty to be sensitive about, so don't apologize. And listen, all these incremental changes I am making do, I believe, improve the article, but it's a really substantial piece of work, and very important IMHO. It portrays a living breathing culture and not just the cartoonish propaganda about US Marines in Tripoli, which is what, if anything, most Americans are going to know about the period. As you've noticed, I am also doing a fast run through some of the related articles and I am seeing a lot of work by you in those also. So. Somebody noticed what you are doing, just so you know. Elinruby (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
I see. An important point then. I am not going to take it out. But why dust as opposed to heritage or traditions?
So it's sarcasm? Because correct me if I am wrong and maybe this is what I am not understanding, isn't this author Algerian not French? People may just have to click on the reference. But meantime I gather that this is important, don't worry about that, if you are. Also, I may speak French and not Arabic but I am no apologist for the French colonial government and have previously discussed with someone the parallels between the Western betrayal of Eastern Europe and what the French did in Africa and North Africa. fairly substantive change here to wording but not I think to meaning, trying to bring out the loyalty to the country I think you are talking about. I see the stuff about marabouts and I think it is good. Previously you could tell they were important but not so much how. I did just go through the articles about marabouts that are linked in the lede. This is a good example of material that will be very new to most English speakers though, so there may be questions. In fact -- you say oasis. I think there is more than one, though, right? Changing to oases plural unless you stop me. Going through Society section again from the top. I think infantilization is a feature of most colonialism and not limited to Algeria. But it's Algeria we are talking about, and I think I understand better. Merouche does not have a preview on Google Books though. If you are taking long-term suggestions, I have seem people add pages to the Internet Archive. I would have trouble doing that from here, but if you are in a city or have access to a scanner, it's a thought. Elinruby (talk) 16:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, i will check for sure, Merouche' study is valuable. As always yhe changes you made are most welcome and allow for better readability, yes marabouts are important, they were a sort of internal legitimacy for the Ottoman elite, in exchange they had a cut in the corsair spoils and many previledges. And yes there is more than one oasis since the awlad sidi cheik ruled over large chunk of the Sahara. As for the Siba tribes, yes are rebellious or at least unsubordinate to central authority. Nourerrahmane (talk) 19:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
On the bullet points. I would put a reference in for the definition of the each aristo class, e.g. djouads. The reason for this, becuase the ref on bullet for the descriptive text not the definition. On Yacono 1993, "djouads" is described in page 5.
in the djouads [fr] warrior aristocrats bullet point, I added "for example the !!Mokrani]] of Beni Abbas" @Nourerrahmane: can you please reality check that and if possible source it. I am getting this from French wikipedia, and as we agreed elsewhere, the French have some strange ideas about Algeria.
Just above that I changed "douads families" to "douad families". I am assuming that at some point this was a translation of "familles douad(e?)s". If so, adjectives of plural nouns do not take an s in English so I changed it to "douad families", but now I need to know if this is a name or a description. Is there something like a Douad Tribal Council or is this a loanword from Arabic that just means "people" or "nomads" or "fierce warriors", for example? Isn't cross-cultural communication fun?
Sharif and chérifien [fr] have mostly been used so far in this article with respect to a ruling dynasty of Morocco, I believe. Is this really a tribal confederacy that the dynasty belonged to? My main concern here is briefly explaining to alert readers who wonder about this how the ones we are talking about are Algerian not Moroccan, and again, sourcing this if at all possible.
marabouts is neither sourced nor explained on this list and I am currently afraid to attempt this, lol
is the word "caste" used correctly in the header? I don't have a problem with it if you are certain that this is either the word an anthropologist would use or better yet the way they themselves would describe this affiliation. I only question it because in English it is most frequently seen afaik with respect to India. That doesn't make using it another way wrong as long as it is based in sources. Whee. LMk,no special rush. Elinruby (talk) 06:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Hey Elin I’m going to the mountain today with family, dunno if there is internet connection there, so I might or might not be available Nourerrahmane (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
np going to need a break myself real soon. I dreamed about this article last night. Have fun. Pings still mean I think it needs you but we just won't necessarily expect immediate answers Elinruby (talk) 09:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Got some internet here, so i reworked that section a bit, hopefully it's better explained this way, for title i would replace it with "Aristocracy" or "Tribal Aristocracy" only. Djouads means strongmen. So Djouad tribes means stong families or warrior familiy led tribes. Nourerrahmane (talk) 10:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Ok so it is not a name, it is an adjective, and castes should go, got it. I will take care of that.
(actually tessalation but not really tiles, I think in retrospect, but we both liked this image, and it is used in the article. I just realized that the photos I added to urban populations are of the same door from different angles, so I am going to remove the one that is jist tbe door. I am thinking of adding this image to architecture. The Ketchaoua Mosque dome inside down view.jpg as it helps.explaim the tile thing, which does seem important but i am struggling to express. Do what you can with the pings. I am about to resume a copy edit. Elinruby (talk) 11:07, 16 March 2024
I like this picture a lot, and it was a good idea to show the dome from the inside, because even though Ketchawa mosque is an iconic building of the regency period, it did't look like its current status. Nicely done. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:20, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
ha I think part was accidental, but I agree, it's not just Algiers but Ottoman Algiers.(UTC)
Although isn't this mosque in the Turkish tradition and therefore the minaret is round not octagonal? (UTC)In any event I said tiled, but I meant that other word I just leaned about the honeycomb vaulting (in the notes section I think) but that isn't that either, is it. Anyway, it's got a lot of visual appeal and it's Ottoman architecture in Algiers, so I was pretty sure it was ok to add.(UTC)
(UTC)Nice work on Tribal aristocracy. I did a copy edit. There were some assumptions, so double check me please.(UTC) I haven't checked the references yet (UTC)but am otherwise really happy with that section, assuming it passed your review of course ;) Elinruby (talk) 13:40, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! i did check it and everything essential is there and well written. Nourerrahmane (talk) 13:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)(UTC)
The last para in culture should really be in education.
Abi-Mershed 2010 has really good descriptive text on schools and could be used to ref the first sentence of second para beginning "Secondary and tertiary education". scope_creepTalk13:23, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
"decorated interior walls and floors, forming bands, patterns and frames around doors, windows, and entrances. They were also used on door jambs, window frames and balusters" Needs ref'd. p.19 Laʻraj 1990 only covers the 3 types of tiles. Possibly expand the page range. scope_creepTalk16:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
No problem. I have substantial work done in the Culture section but I blew all my referencing fuses on the Crafts section, which did have some straight translation, probably too much, and some unusual words that might be hits with the right software. Not ready to sign off on all the references.
Right now just doing copy-edit and can I understand it. In War with Spain and moving up. What are you doing with references, just making sure they work, or verifying them or checking for paraphrasjng too? My main request in terms of not duplicating work is that the Crafts section be left to me, since it's actually quite difficult to find sources for 18th century Algerian lace and door knockers, and I have some possibilities open. Unless Nourerrahmane has something in Arabic? I have about an hour, maybe two and right now am just doing a slightly aggressive copy-edit that is, I think, improving things and may or may not be taking out any paraphrasing that may or may not exist along the way. Elinruby (talk) 17:00, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Making sure they are valid, but not verifying them yet. We will do the section above when we check for paraphrasing. If they are not properly formatted it is a GA fail. scope_creepTalk17:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Checklist looks great; I collapsed it and added subsection headers, to make it easier to just edit what you want. Btw, to avoid duplicate effort, if you're about to start work on some section(s), I would mark it working... ~~~~ or claimed...~~~~ or some such, to avoid duplication; then switch it to Y or done or whatever when you're done. I claimed agriculture. Mathglot (talk) 10:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Clarifying: just the four tildes, not the wikicode underlying my 10:43 17 march post with the embedded zero-width space, because that inserts tildes into the list, not sigs. If you uncollapse the § Checklist worksheet and look at section 1.4, you'll see what I mean. Just drop all the {{zwsp}}, and it will be fine. Mathglot (talk) 09:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
1.1.5
it was 1525 and not 1527
I adressed the issues listed, i think Hayreddin should be replaced with Khayr ad-Din in this article because the article for that figure says Hayreddin while the sources i have mention Khayr ad-Din, what do you seggest ? Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't have access to Roberts source anymore infortunately, and Julien, Kaddache, Hess, and Cambridge history of islam all indicate 1525 date. Nourerrahmane (talk) 17:51, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
@Nourerrahmane: In that case it might be worth putting a note stating that Robert stated it 1527 and using the ref from the Hayreddin aerticle. Also it might be worth checking there is redirects in for the names to the Hayreddin article. scope_creepTalk21:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
on 1525 vs 1527, this was a good thing to straighten out. Do I understand that it's now 1525 and that's what sources say? Hurray. Can I collapse this thread? Elinruby (talk) 23:02, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Morocco kept seizing Oran, and that changed the western border of Algeria. ;Sharifian used like this generally means Sharifian dynasty, but there were various sultans, warlords, emirs that are within the realm of possibility. "Fighting frequently changed the border with Morocco" with some indication of the timeframe, is my current best effort. That's why I was asking about Oran though: I am not sure when that place was built. Elinruby (talk) 08:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Oran was built in the 10th century, by berber or Andalusians, it later became an important port during the 14th 15th century, in the Ottoman period it was occupied by the spanish until 1791, when it was captured by the Ottoman Algerians. Morocco (Sharifian dynasty) never seized Oran. Nourerrahmane (talk) 11:07, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
ok.The border fighting with Morocco did not include Oran. Oran was part of the Regency after 1791. Before that it was occupied by the Spanish. Have I got that right? This is relevant with respect to images of the palace in Oran and whether they are representative of Ottoman architecture. I think I mean to type "palace" btw but I am pretty sure it was built before 1791.
same question for Tlemcen. I realize it is very old. Was it part of the Regency at some point? Also Bejaïa/Bougie. Within the scope? Elinruby (talk) 22:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Yes you're right
Tlemcen was part of the Regency since 1556, it was in the middle of the Algerian Moroccan conflicts, as the Saadi dynasty kept attacking it. Bejaia became part of the Regency after it was taken from the Spanish in 1556 also. Nourerrahmane (talk) 12:14, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
I've got the rest of today free so plan to check the 2nd tranche of updates I did to see if they are done. I had a look at the "Crisis in the 19th century" section. Refs were ok. One para may need work. I've left comments in the checklist section as per. scope_creepTalk13:00, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
coral fishermen are gone, so that takes care of that, I guess. Leaving section open as currently unsure whether all references were checked Elinruby (talk) 01:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
images copied to Talk: Culture of Algeria
Fixed. Mathglot (talk) 03:29, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
This is done. The analysis on this excellent. scope_creepTalk 09:00, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
scope_creepTalk 07:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)